Fallout 3 Compendium - Release 12 - Beta v0.6.0.2
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your evil twin
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I am very much in favour of many of the aspects of this mod. 99% of the changes are excellent. Seriously, reading the description of the features, it sounds fantastic!
The one exception is using AP to do everything in combat.
I really enjoyed the turn-based Fallouts, and I am about to replay them again. I also enjoy first-person-shooters such as Half-Life. (And there have been decent RPG shooters like Deus Ex and Mass Effect.)
The way I see it, making Fallout 3 combat turn-based will simply make Fallout 3 into an inferior first-person shooter, and what is the benefit? None. It means that when you are playing the game and fighting enemies, your immersion is broken by the game not allowing you to move anymore or shoot anymore smiply because you have shot or moved recently. Have I run out of bullets? No. Has my gun jammed? No. Has my foot gotten stuck in mud? No. An arbitrary AP counter has decided I've used enough imaginary AP points and now I'm screwed.
Note that this isn't a rant against you guys - Bethesda made a mistake in the first place by including AP points in VATS mode. There's no reason why making a targetted shot should use AP points - you should be able aim at people's legs or arms or heads as much as you want. The cost should be that while you are doing a targetted shot you stand still and are vulnerable to being shot, and also the chances of hitting a specific body part are low, compared to normal aiming where you merely try to hit the enemy anywhere. Unfortunately, Bethesda decided to make targetted shots "bullet time", where everything goes into slow motion, and where you only take 10% damage. This meant that VATS mode was so extraordinarily powerful that it needed action points so you wouldn't use it constantly. Get rid of the slow motion and the 10% damage and you don't need action points anymore.
If you use a mod such as "Fast VATS" http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1650 (or the earlier, buggier "real-time VATS" that is mentioned earlier in this thread), and combine that with "Simple Action Point Recharge Mod" http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=210 you can make it so that clicking the VATS key gives you a simple targetted shot. The game is paused while you choose a body part, but once you have chosen you fire your gun in normal real time, and your enemies are still running around and attacking you in real time. If you want, you can then do another targetted shot, and another, and another. This is dangerous, as while standing there you are vulnerable, and it makes far more sense than having to wait an arbitary amount of time for a magic bullet-time meter to refill.
It might also be interesting if "Fast VATS" and fast action point regeneration was combined with having all guns completely use up the Action Point meter when you shoot. This would mean you would only get to fire one single shot (or a three-round burst with an SMG) per press of the VATS key, but then after firing that shot you could immediately choose to use VATS again. The action point values of weapons would become completely meaningless, but that's OK because in-game the weapon descritpions don't mention the AP value, only damage.
In Fallout 3 the agility stat isn't terribly useful - your action points are determined by 65+ twice your agility. A player with average agility of 5 has 75 action points and a player with the maximum of 10 agility has 85 action points. I'd like to scrap action points altogether, and make Agility affect the player's movement speed and your skill points for all combat skills. In Fallout 3 the only combat skill affected by Agility is Small Guns, while in the old Fallout games Agility affected everything. I'd like to see that back.
(Fallout 3's system of "small guns use Agility, energy weapons use Perception, big guns use endurance" is absurd. Skill points for all weapons should be affected by Agility, and aiming all weapons should be affected by Perception. It's cool to see you've already implimented the Perception aspect into the mod.
JayTheGay's experiments with altering the animation speed of firing/reloading weapons seem quite promising. It would be great if Agility could be used for that, but if not, I'd be happy with Agility just affecting player movement speed and stat boosts to combat and sneaking. I'd much rather see the Agility stat used for that kind of thing, rather than "action points" which make no sense in a real-time game.
Down with Action Points! Up with risky targetted shots!
The one exception is using AP to do everything in combat.
I really enjoyed the turn-based Fallouts, and I am about to replay them again. I also enjoy first-person-shooters such as Half-Life. (And there have been decent RPG shooters like Deus Ex and Mass Effect.)
The way I see it, making Fallout 3 combat turn-based will simply make Fallout 3 into an inferior first-person shooter, and what is the benefit? None. It means that when you are playing the game and fighting enemies, your immersion is broken by the game not allowing you to move anymore or shoot anymore smiply because you have shot or moved recently. Have I run out of bullets? No. Has my gun jammed? No. Has my foot gotten stuck in mud? No. An arbitrary AP counter has decided I've used enough imaginary AP points and now I'm screwed.
Note that this isn't a rant against you guys - Bethesda made a mistake in the first place by including AP points in VATS mode. There's no reason why making a targetted shot should use AP points - you should be able aim at people's legs or arms or heads as much as you want. The cost should be that while you are doing a targetted shot you stand still and are vulnerable to being shot, and also the chances of hitting a specific body part are low, compared to normal aiming where you merely try to hit the enemy anywhere. Unfortunately, Bethesda decided to make targetted shots "bullet time", where everything goes into slow motion, and where you only take 10% damage. This meant that VATS mode was so extraordinarily powerful that it needed action points so you wouldn't use it constantly. Get rid of the slow motion and the 10% damage and you don't need action points anymore.
If you use a mod such as "Fast VATS" http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1650 (or the earlier, buggier "real-time VATS" that is mentioned earlier in this thread), and combine that with "Simple Action Point Recharge Mod" http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=210 you can make it so that clicking the VATS key gives you a simple targetted shot. The game is paused while you choose a body part, but once you have chosen you fire your gun in normal real time, and your enemies are still running around and attacking you in real time. If you want, you can then do another targetted shot, and another, and another. This is dangerous, as while standing there you are vulnerable, and it makes far more sense than having to wait an arbitary amount of time for a magic bullet-time meter to refill.
It might also be interesting if "Fast VATS" and fast action point regeneration was combined with having all guns completely use up the Action Point meter when you shoot. This would mean you would only get to fire one single shot (or a three-round burst with an SMG) per press of the VATS key, but then after firing that shot you could immediately choose to use VATS again. The action point values of weapons would become completely meaningless, but that's OK because in-game the weapon descritpions don't mention the AP value, only damage.
In Fallout 3 the agility stat isn't terribly useful - your action points are determined by 65+ twice your agility. A player with average agility of 5 has 75 action points and a player with the maximum of 10 agility has 85 action points. I'd like to scrap action points altogether, and make Agility affect the player's movement speed and your skill points for all combat skills. In Fallout 3 the only combat skill affected by Agility is Small Guns, while in the old Fallout games Agility affected everything. I'd like to see that back.
(Fallout 3's system of "small guns use Agility, energy weapons use Perception, big guns use endurance" is absurd. Skill points for all weapons should be affected by Agility, and aiming all weapons should be affected by Perception. It's cool to see you've already implimented the Perception aspect into the mod.
JayTheGay's experiments with altering the animation speed of firing/reloading weapons seem quite promising. It would be great if Agility could be used for that, but if not, I'd be happy with Agility just affecting player movement speed and stat boosts to combat and sneaking. I'd much rather see the Agility stat used for that kind of thing, rather than "action points" which make no sense in a real-time game.
Down with Action Points! Up with risky targetted shots!
This is what was done in OOO, and it worked great with Oblivions combat, which is almost the same as the one in F3.
Using this, I propose stimpacks healing a fixed ammount, and your medice skill determines how fast you gain health. Heal overtime would represent the time it takes you to fully inject the stimpacks.
wannabenerd
First time out of the vault
Hello folks,
I don't even own Fallout 3, I just ordered it a while ago because I found this mod. I love it's ideas and how it's centered around the original Fallout canon and character attributes. You guys are doing an excellent job and I will be using this mod as soon as I install the game.
I wanted to register here to tell you that, as well as give a couple of ideas.
And btw, by the time this mod is complete after it's many revisions, I'm sure it will be one of the best mods out there for Fallout 3.
.......................
1.) .223 Pistol!
I LOVED that pistol in Fallout 1 and 2. The 5 shot's then reload, good range, and raw power made it a sweet tactical weapon in combat IMO. If you knew how to use it right, you could handle pretty much anything in-game (ok, mostly everything). Even the sound effect in Fallout 2 was superb. I used the .223 more than anything else.
As well, I think the model would look pretty sick in game. Perhaps you could make an optional quest to get it too, just like in Fallout 1?
2.) BOZAR or Light Support Weapon
Either one of these would be great. I remember how much I loved ripping through Deathclaw's and Aliens with one of these babies. The ability to use a medium range scope would be sweet too.
3.) Gauss Rifle and Pistol
Like in Fallout 2, and as equally powerful and with ammo equally as expensive and rare
4.) Variants of ammo
FMJ and then armor-piercing variants and so forth.
Many thanks to you guys for your love for Fallout.
I don't even own Fallout 3, I just ordered it a while ago because I found this mod. I love it's ideas and how it's centered around the original Fallout canon and character attributes. You guys are doing an excellent job and I will be using this mod as soon as I install the game.
I wanted to register here to tell you that, as well as give a couple of ideas.
And btw, by the time this mod is complete after it's many revisions, I'm sure it will be one of the best mods out there for Fallout 3.
.......................
1.) .223 Pistol!
I LOVED that pistol in Fallout 1 and 2. The 5 shot's then reload, good range, and raw power made it a sweet tactical weapon in combat IMO. If you knew how to use it right, you could handle pretty much anything in-game (ok, mostly everything). Even the sound effect in Fallout 2 was superb. I used the .223 more than anything else.
As well, I think the model would look pretty sick in game. Perhaps you could make an optional quest to get it too, just like in Fallout 1?
2.) BOZAR or Light Support Weapon
Either one of these would be great. I remember how much I loved ripping through Deathclaw's and Aliens with one of these babies. The ability to use a medium range scope would be sweet too.
3.) Gauss Rifle and Pistol
Like in Fallout 2, and as equally powerful and with ammo equally as expensive and rare
4.) Variants of ammo
FMJ and then armor-piercing variants and so forth.
Many thanks to you guys for your love for Fallout.
evil twin, thanks for understanding my idea with animation speeds 
nice ot see someone appreciates it!
i just hope someone can help me make it, my skills at scripting suck
anyway, i dont know why u say my realtime vats mod is buggier. it does exactly the same as fastvats mod. just that some idiots didnt get what its all about and downrated it liek "lol makes you die in vats, sux lol!"
by the way, here an update of the mod:
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1530
included new version of it, with no min time for cameras. makes tings even more realtime, but the cinematics sometimes suck this way :/
also included instant ap regen, no palyback delay at end of vats (rly good thing!), and also mods from other guys: 100% damage for player in VATS , and 200% damage to player head if in vats or no (all creatures got 200% to head except palyer in vanilla)
what i want to do next is tweaking slow mo on some dramatic cameras back in
nice ot see someone appreciates it! i just hope someone can help me make it, my skills at scripting suck
anyway, i dont know why u say my realtime vats mod is buggier. it does exactly the same as fastvats mod. just that some idiots didnt get what its all about and downrated it liek "lol makes you die in vats, sux lol!"
by the way, here an update of the mod:
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1530
included new version of it, with no min time for cameras. makes tings even more realtime, but the cinematics sometimes suck this way :/
also included instant ap regen, no palyback delay at end of vats (rly good thing!), and also mods from other guys: 100% damage for player in VATS , and 200% damage to player head if in vats or no (all creatures got 200% to head except palyer in vanilla)
what i want to do next is tweaking slow mo on some dramatic cameras back in
your evil twin
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Ah, apologies, I based that "buggier" comment merely on the feedback people left in the comments section.
Ooh, I like the idea of putting slow-mo back into certain cameras. Some of Fallout 3's slow-motion VATS bits are great, like followinng an individual sniper bullet as it flies through the air and into an enemy. Those are massively slower than even normal slow mo, so it would make sense if they were still slow rather than normal speed.
It's great to see you are still working on it.
Ooh, I like the idea of putting slow-mo back into certain cameras. Some of Fallout 3's slow-motion VATS bits are great, like followinng an individual sniper bullet as it flies through the air and into an enemy. Those are massively slower than even normal slow mo, so it would make sense if they were still slow rather than normal speed.
It's great to see you are still working on it.
wannabenerd said:
All coming back with F3C. And the 223 pistol is being based off the original movie prop that the 223 in fallout 2 was designed after.
your evil twin said:
No comment. (Yet)
wannabenerd
First time out of the vault
lol... I downloaded the mod and took a look at the readme... I see some of my ideas have already been added. lol
After looking over the readme, I just had to say again... wow. The amount of detail that is going into this mod is awesome.
I think it's an awesome idea that real-time FPS combat uses 20% less AP than VATS.
I had a couple more ideas come to me after seeing the read-me. I noticed some things that were added came from Fallout Tactics or were just added as brand new stuff.
How about re-adding the "Living Anatomy" perk from Fallout 2 with the same requirements and bonuses. Or you could get rid of the damage bonus and add an increased chance (or critical chance) to cripple, blind, knock unconscious, etc. the target.
Also, EXPLOSIVE ammunition. Maybe this can be a schematic? (I'm stealing heavily from Bioshock and Crysis here lol)
Dubby, that picture you have of the .223 pistol from Blade Runner is sickly cool.
After looking over the readme, I just had to say again... wow. The amount of detail that is going into this mod is awesome.
I think it's an awesome idea that real-time FPS combat uses 20% less AP than VATS.I had a couple more ideas come to me after seeing the read-me. I noticed some things that were added came from Fallout Tactics or were just added as brand new stuff.
How about re-adding the "Living Anatomy" perk from Fallout 2 with the same requirements and bonuses. Or you could get rid of the damage bonus and add an increased chance (or critical chance) to cripple, blind, knock unconscious, etc. the target.
Also, EXPLOSIVE ammunition. Maybe this can be a schematic? (I'm stealing heavily from Bioshock and Crysis here lol)
Dubby, that picture you have of the .223 pistol from Blade Runner is sickly cool.
mrowa:
Try fighting a deathclaw and count how much they can screw you up in two seconds. That's a very very long time.
jaythegay:
Yes, Dubby can simply set DumbAI=0 and we're all set!
AI is often difficult to fix as a modder.
I would indeed prefer stimpack injection take a small amount of time (0.5 seconds?), or stimpacks healing over time, or even a stimpack overdose side-effect if you take more than, say, three within a minute, but the changes need to be rather small, because they compound with the AI and nerf-VATS to make things a lot harder. (Even a combination of the three methods I outlined above would make things much, much harder... by 'harder' i mean, in context of FO3, 'frustrating'.)
Try fighting a deathclaw and count how much they can screw you up in two seconds. That's a very very long time.
jaythegay:
Yes, Dubby can simply set DumbAI=0 and we're all set!
AI is often difficult to fix as a modder.
I would indeed prefer stimpack injection take a small amount of time (0.5 seconds?), or stimpacks healing over time, or even a stimpack overdose side-effect if you take more than, say, three within a minute, but the changes need to be rather small, because they compound with the AI and nerf-VATS to make things a lot harder. (Even a combination of the three methods I outlined above would make things much, much harder... by 'harder' i mean, in context of FO3, 'frustrating'.)
mrowa:
Quote:
Its not like its gona be forever, stims are for critical situation so this can be fast animation it can take 2 sec
Try fighting a deathclaw and count how much they can screw you up in two seconds. That's a very very long time.
2 sec is 1,5 normal hit or 1 special hit this leave u with hp for 4-5 more normal hits from him or 3 special if ur endurance is default and u are in power armor repaire 60% or more
Than this is the time when u mass click on "V" and shot him in to legs to stop him making special attack or head t kill him but head shots have very low hit chance even from meele range to kill and pray that u got a companion with a good weapon to help
Anyways look this was just a propopsition and time was for example besides if this would be bound to medical skill thers no problem for that when i get to mid game i get mostly 30-40 in medical skill form books alone. This would just make player to not charge on 5 supermutans spaming stimpacks its just to easy, yes i know in f1/f2 just open inv and spam as many a u like but it did have its restriction like u couldnt gun & run to nearest cover then crouch to hide from all gun fire and stimpack himself, fallout require from players atleast a bit of tactical sense.
Besides even if f/f2 ther was actually a animation of well doing something with hands and most of meds and other stuff used the same animaton but it was more realistic than in f3 now
Quote:
Its not like its gona be forever, stims are for critical situation so this can be fast animation it can take 2 sec
Try fighting a deathclaw and count how much they can screw you up in two seconds. That's a very very long time.
2 sec is 1,5 normal hit or 1 special hit this leave u with hp for 4-5 more normal hits from him or 3 special if ur endurance is default and u are in power armor repaire 60% or more
Than this is the time when u mass click on "V" and shot him in to legs to stop him making special attack or head t kill him but head shots have very low hit chance even from meele range to kill and pray that u got a companion with a good weapon to help
Anyways look this was just a propopsition and time was for example besides if this would be bound to medical skill thers no problem for that when i get to mid game i get mostly 30-40 in medical skill form books alone. This would just make player to not charge on 5 supermutans spaming stimpacks its just to easy, yes i know in f1/f2 just open inv and spam as many a u like but it did have its restriction like u couldnt gun & run to nearest cover then crouch to hide from all gun fire and stimpack himself, fallout require from players atleast a bit of tactical sense.
Besides even if f/f2 ther was actually a animation of well doing something with hands and most of meds and other stuff used the same animaton but it was more realistic than in f3 now
To be honest, I would focus on 'patching' the game. Leave the combat as it isn't too bad, but focus on making the dialogue trees more interesting, pad out some quests like Power Of The Atom, add to the main quest (perhaps change the ending).
The quests (and their plot holes) and dialogue are by far the weakest parts of FO3 and they should be focused on first, fixing the leveling system and making the combat harder can come after that I think.
The quests (and their plot holes) and dialogue are by far the weakest parts of FO3 and they should be focused on first, fixing the leveling system and making the combat harder can come after that I think.
your evil twin
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Yeah I've actually been playing for a while and I think I might be changing my mind about the real-time/fast VATS thing.
It's kind of hard to appreciate some of the more awsome deaths in real-time - melt someone to goo with a plasma rifle and they transition from person to green lump in an instant, and you can't really appreciate it.
Also, it sometimes seems that the death animations occur FASTER than normal time. Could be my imagination.
I think perhaps it might be OK to keep VATS slow motion. The problem with VATS is that in vanilla Fallout 3 it makes you invulernable, and it uses action points which makes no sense. I was in favour of scrapping the slow-mo to make it faster-paced and more visceral, but the problem is that awesome gory deaths aren't really very impressive anymore.
I also have a suspicion that in VATS (in vanilla Fallout 3) enemy movement speed doesn't quite match up with the speed that time is supposed to be slowed down. If time is going 1/3 normal speed, enemies should move 1/3 normal speed, and you should shoot 1/3 normal speed, so everything is balanced, and the slow-motion merely lets you appreciate the carnage.
Also, I'm hoping the revamp of the skills/aiming system will mean that the percentage chances of succesful aimed shots will decrease. That way doing an aimed shot will be a really bad idea unless the enemy is quite close or you have high skill. And if the enemy is close, then they've got a good likelyhood of hitting you while you stand there like a lemon taking an aimed shot!
Anyway, I shall do some more playtesting. I liked JayTheGay's comment that he may be able to have some slow-down in certain VATS cut-scenes. That may work out the best. But if it turns out that is not possible, they I say keep the slow motion.
It's kind of hard to appreciate some of the more awsome deaths in real-time - melt someone to goo with a plasma rifle and they transition from person to green lump in an instant, and you can't really appreciate it.
Also, it sometimes seems that the death animations occur FASTER than normal time. Could be my imagination.
I think perhaps it might be OK to keep VATS slow motion. The problem with VATS is that in vanilla Fallout 3 it makes you invulernable, and it uses action points which makes no sense. I was in favour of scrapping the slow-mo to make it faster-paced and more visceral, but the problem is that awesome gory deaths aren't really very impressive anymore.
I also have a suspicion that in VATS (in vanilla Fallout 3) enemy movement speed doesn't quite match up with the speed that time is supposed to be slowed down. If time is going 1/3 normal speed, enemies should move 1/3 normal speed, and you should shoot 1/3 normal speed, so everything is balanced, and the slow-motion merely lets you appreciate the carnage.
Also, I'm hoping the revamp of the skills/aiming system will mean that the percentage chances of succesful aimed shots will decrease. That way doing an aimed shot will be a really bad idea unless the enemy is quite close or you have high skill. And if the enemy is close, then they've got a good likelyhood of hitting you while you stand there like a lemon taking an aimed shot!
Anyway, I shall do some more playtesting. I liked JayTheGay's comment that he may be able to have some slow-down in certain VATS cut-scenes. That may work out the best. But if it turns out that is not possible, they I say keep the slow motion.
your evil twin
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Why make combat outside VATS slower? Do you find the combat harder than Half-Life/Deus Ex/STALKER/Call of Duty etc? Just cause Fallout 3 is both a shooter and an RPG, doesn't mean the shooter aspect should be made easier.
I seem to recall the "Fallout 3 Balance Overhaul" mod includes something that makes all NPCs move 16% faster. Apprently this makes their AI actually appear that little bit smarter, since they are better at charging you, flanking you, running away from you, etc. I haven't tried it myself though.
I seem to recall the "Fallout 3 Balance Overhaul" mod includes something that makes all NPCs move 16% faster. Apprently this makes their AI actually appear that little bit smarter, since they are better at charging you, flanking you, running away from you, etc. I haven't tried it myself though.
your evil twin said:
I just think that VATS is way too overpowered over normal shooting atm.
There are some bugs too like when you fire the combat shotgun you have to wait a second to fire again but there is no animation to indicate when this is over.
Things like that make combat outside of VATS so weak atm.
So, yes, I do find it much harder than Deus Ex, etc.
your evil twin
It Wandered In From the Wastes
That's true about the shotgun, it can be a nuscience. The laser pistol too - it seems like a semi-auto weapon, but you can't actually fire it as fast as you can click. This might be fixable by improving the weapons' rate of fire. The only limit on firing speed should be the speed that you click.
Also, the "underpowered" combat outside of VATS might be improved by weapon damage being independent of weapon skill, and weapons being made to always do their maximum amount of possible damage.
I'm hoping that the changes to the skill systems will mean that targetting heads in VATS will be made more difficult (at low skill levels).
I'm thinking of trying this mod, which changes the balance of weapons and armour to be closer to Fallout 2 and Fallout Tactics. http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1402 I haven't tried it yet because I want to finish my current playthrough first before messing with the balances of all the weapons.
Also, the "underpowered" combat outside of VATS might be improved by weapon damage being independent of weapon skill, and weapons being made to always do their maximum amount of possible damage.
I'm hoping that the changes to the skill systems will mean that targetting heads in VATS will be made more difficult (at low skill levels).
I'm thinking of trying this mod, which changes the balance of weapons and armour to be closer to Fallout 2 and Fallout Tactics. http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1402 I haven't tried it yet because I want to finish my current playthrough first before messing with the balances of all the weapons.
Tigranes said:
dont you understand the meaning of quotation marks around the word "just" in my post, or did you just want to sound cool?
@ evil twin: there are already mods that set your damage in VATS to normal (included within my new version of realtime vats), and also the thing with "enemy and player speed is diffrent in vats" is as well fixed in both realtimVATS and fastVATS mods.
this night i been working on slow mo for dramatic deaths, but didnt come too far yet :-/ im still on it though