Fallout 3: Fallout At It's Finest

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by Heisenberg, Feb 18, 2021.

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  1. Alphons

    Alphons National Beholder

    Aug 9, 2017
    Of course they aren't- nothing happens after you blow up Megaton. James is "dissapointed" and Three Dog sometimes bitches on the radio.
    Caravans still stop at the Megaton in the range of radiation for whatever reason, Moira still gives you her quest even if you told her you nuked the city, Three Dog happily assists the mass murderer he vilifies on radio. Nobody cares that an entire city just vanished.

    People care that you've destroyed the power plant. Gecko just lost it's only resource, Vault City is forever contaminated and Broken Hills loses it's major trading partner.
    Ghouls hate and try to kill you, their caravans never appear again, Vault City bans you from entering or trading with their merchants and later completely dies and Broken Hills uranium caravans never appear in the north again.
    Everyone cares about what you did- from an NCR senator to a BH miner.

    Your praise for the map design was due to how open it was, not how "atmospheric" it was. In reality half of the map is closed behind a series of straight corridors.

    There're no dialogue flags for skipping Scientific Pursuits. Li, James and Daniel Agrincourt all mention you talking with Dr Li and going to the Purifier before heading to find James.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 4
  2. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    148
    Feb 17, 2021
    ....and there's a massive crater in the middle of Springvale. Haven't you noticed this yet?
    Also Moira is ghoulified, she becomes a resident of Underworld.
    All the quests from Megaton are erased, unavailable.

    This all helps cement roleplay. In Morrowind you could kill vital NPCs and break the main quest chain, locking yourself out of doing the main quest.
    While there is nothing as drastic in Fallout 3 or any other modern Fallout game for that fact, Fallout 3 allows to lock yourself out of a vital trade hub and quest hub.

    In New Vegas you could only ever bomb The Fort and the NCR outpost, of which were related to the main quest and only ever gave maybe 1 or 2 faction-related quests. Not side quests that any player of any faction could do, except maybe the one where you rescue the teddy bear for the little girl.

    In short, the Megaton explosion was more climactic than anything else in the franchise. Just admit it already.
    Yeah, an unvoiced "senator" and one "miner" acknowledges it and some other unrelated shit happens.
    Fallout 3 has the regulators and the mercs, which operate in the same way. Of course it has the karma system, but it works far better than in New Vegas and it reinforces this.
    Arming the atom bomb in Megaton instantly decreases your karma level more than anything else in the game, and unlike in New Vegas, you actually have people who hunt you down for having high or low levels of karma.

    New Vegas has people who hunt you down because of reputation, and this isn't an acknowledgement of your character's morality but how each faction views you.

    What does it matter to me if a few legionaries hate me because I killed their God Emperor? I already know I'm hated by them. It's not a intrinsic characteristic of my character. They're just a nuisance.

    When the regulators and the mercs come after you, it's an acknowledgement that someone out there, other than main factions, hate you and your actions. I'm more likely to try to change my ways after this happens, and it's an acknowledgement of just how powerful and influential my character is within this wasteland.

    Nothing of the sort in any other Fallout game.
    Let me make one thing clear.

    The entire North, South and West parts of the map are ALL open and free to explore without isolated zones. That's more than half the map. I would go so far as to say that only a fifth of the map is the urban city areas, maybe not even that.

    The Eastern part of the Capital Wasteland is the more urban areas, effectively meaning that much of it is covered in rubble and wreckage, so much so that you have to go through the subway tunnels to have easier access to places.

    The subway tunnels are fun for anyone who likes dungeon crawling. They are far more harrowing and atmospheric than any other dungeons in the series, including the FO4 and New Vegas ones.

    No they don't, sweetie. They mention you talking to Dr. Li before heading to the purifier after you've found James, which is an unskippable stage of the quest.
     
  3. Alphons

    Alphons National Beholder

    Aug 9, 2017
    Nobody noticed it. Caravans still stop next to it, soaking all the radiation. Maybe it's not there at all?

    That's one more than I thought. Didn't even know that collecting debt from Silver wasn't counted as an optional objective for Following in his footsteps. Guess I was a little harsh on Power of the Atom.

    But Moira has her inventory intact after relocating?
    Other Megaton merchants (Stahl, Church and Gob) all have smaller amount of caps and stock than the TT traders.

    That's horrible! If only there was someone that immediately could raise my Karma back to neutral! Preferably standing right next to the bomb. You mean there is? That's convenient.

    Talon company will attack you after giving away 5 bottles of water. Regulators are a bit tamer and will hunt you down for stealing 50 empty bottles, even if nobody saw you. Powerful and influential.

    I mean if we don't count Childkiller bounty hunters in FO1/FO2 and bounty hunters in Fallout 2 that attack you for having more than 501 negative Karma, absolutely yes.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  4. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    148
    Feb 17, 2021
    No they don't. Citation required.
    Yeah, it's only there if your speech sucks or you can't bribe or talk Moriarty out of spilling the beans. You can also sneak into his terminal if you have a high enough Science skill, and also talk to Gob or Nova if you have high enough affinity with them (e.g. being a nice guy to Gob).
    But Church is one of the most convenient doctors in the game, Stahl sells a whole load of chems and drugs at cheap prices if you do his quest, and Gob nets you some cheap alcohol if you're nice to him. He's also part of an unmarked quest which requires the player to let Carol know Gob is still alive. The implication is that post-F3 they both reunite again.
    It's called a gameplay mechanic genius. I could literally take out millions of Legionaires, eliminate the spy in Camp McArran, take out Inculta and literally weaken Caesar's Legion to the point where they are useless, and I will still recieve the Mark of Caesar to get my reputation back so I can progress their quests freely.

    Did you forget that? Or were you too busy shitting on 3 to realize that everything before the Strip in New Vegas doesn't matter at all, even reputation.
    Yeah. I guess me stealing from a couple legionaries and saving a couple of powder gangers without anyone seeing makes the Legion immediately hostile with me. Fantastic.

    Correction: Any "Good" Fallout game.
     
  5. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Exploration doesn't mean "Go wherever you want without consequences"

    It means you can go wherever you want but the game reacts realistically to your decisions on where to go. If you go down the road that everyone says is dangerous and will kill you, the game shouldn't hold your hand and say "It's fine, don't worry about it".

    In Fallout 1, the final location in the game was right next to the beggining area, but it didn't matter because it was guarded by Supermutants which you wouldn't be able to take on immediately.

    This is the point of a Fallout Game: having a world where you can take it at your own pace without being railroaded, however the game doesn't hold your hand and make it easier if you're going somewhere unprepared. Fallout 3 fails astronomically at this.
    Fallout 2 fanboyism kicking in: I'm going to say this is bullshit for a variety of reasons:

    1. Dismissing Fallout 2's content as Silly and Over the top, while defending Superhuman Gambit is ridiculous. Most of Fallout 2's side quests deal with economic inter-relations between towns, and coming to consensuses between communities that are at odds with each other. Most of Fallout 3's side content

    You could say overall that Fallout 2 is more ridiculous, and I'd agree, but in terms of Side Quests, Fallout 2 offers consistently serious and interesting choices, pretty much all of Fallout 3's content is "Haha wouldn't it be funny if we had Superheroes, hahaha", or "Hahaha, do this quest for a town full of children for no reason other than it being mandatory to complete the game"

    The problem with Superhuman Gambit, is that it has no serious stakes, and is basically just a dumb distraction, akin to anything on the level of Fallout 2. You can say it's grounded because "They're not actually superheroes, just people with issues" or whatever, but it's still solely written for the rule of cool and to be like "Haha superhero fight".

    It also adds basically nothing of value to the Fallout Universe. In Fallout 2 you have quests about sorting out a conflict between a farming town that's dying from lack of clean drinking water, and a colony of underground mutants who have been isolationist their entire history, and used local mythologies about farms filled with ghosts to scare people away from their farm to keep themselves safe, and if an agreement isn't reached, the farming town will die.

    The whole premise of Ghost Farm is silly, but it actually creates an interesting interconnected world. Superhuman Gambit is probably one of the quests with the most actual stakes in the world, and nonetheless there's very little actual meaningful impact anything you do has. It's nothing like the equivalent quests of Fallout 2 where you're deciding the fates of entire towns access to vital resources based on how you deal with what seemingly at first is a silly faction.

    2. Fallout 2 has way more fleshed out and high quality side quests than anything Fallout 3 offers. Let's do a basic point of comparison between interactions you can have with Gecko and interactions you can have in Power of the Atom

    In Power of the Atom you're basic choices are Nuke a town for vague reasons that are never really justified to be BWAHAHA I'M EVIL. Like literally, commit genocide for shits and giggles, or repair the bomb and have everything be fine. That's it, that's the scope of your interaction.

    In Gecko, you can start the quest in one of two ways: Either from the First Citizen of Vault City telling you that there's an issue with polluted groundwater from Gecko's broken reactor, or from Harold mentioning the polluted groundwater, and needing a part from Vault City to fix it. This immediately sets up the stakes between Gecko and Vault City: The towns are at odds with each other, one being a violently xenophobic anti-mutant state, the othr being a mutant community, however nonetheless their needs overlap. The repairing of Gecko's reactor isn't just for Gecko, it's literally vital for the survival of neighbouring communities because Gecko isn't an island, it's interconnected with nearby towns.

    Now at first glance you have the same choices: comically evil blow up the entire town because BWAHAHA I'M EVIL, or fix the reactor. However, Fallout 2 being Fallout 2 isn't content to just stop there, and actually fleshes it out a lot more: See, beyond just being able to fix the powerplant, you can also OPTIMISE it. Gecko can produce excess electricity if it wants.

    If you've been paying attention up to this point, you'll probably also realise that Vault City's generator isn't enough to keep up it's expansion, so they're having to institute major policies to reduce population in order to not overuse resources. And Vault City is hostile to Gecko, so Optimising their powerplant isn't enough on it's own: rather doing so will cause Vault City to forcibly annex Gecko and take it over by force.

    Rather, what you need to do is follow Gordon's advice and create a trade deal between Vault City and Gecko, so Vault City relies on Gecko's powergrid to keep it's city up and running. This is one of the steps you need to take to stop NCR Expansionism up north.

    This is the core difference between the original Fallouts and Fallout 3.

    In terms of quest design, the original Fallouts add complexity, and then keep piling it on. Some of the quests from the Originals are masterfully designed: Gecko and the sheer variety of outcomes is actually a minor point: Fallout 1 has genius quest design when it introduces you to the conflict between Gizmo and Killian entirely organically by having a guy show up with a shotgun to kill Killian. You don't need the "Please give me a quest" button.

    Even in Fallout 2, pretty much every major town quest is started by inquring about the G.EC.K, seamlessly blending the side content with the main content. To even find the majority of the content in Fallout 3 you literally have to go off the beaten path and find a town in the middle of nowhere. The game is literally designed in such a way that the content is not only disconnected from the rest of the world in terms of the world not being a coherent world where towns have consequences on one another's existence but rather a series of islands that seemingly exist disconnected from the rest of the world, but also disconnected in that the game gives you no plotwise reason to visit anywhere, whereas Fallout 2 gets you invested in towns by putting them in your direct path to solving the mystery of the G.E.C.K

    Fallout 3 certainly has better quest design than Fallout 4, but it's by no means anywhere near as organic or complex or well-designed as the originals, and every single area feels like an island of silliness that solely exists for the player to do one or two quests in, rather than part of an interconnected world.

    Fallout 1 and 2 create vast interconnected worlds where the fates of towns are often connected directly to one another, the major power players have impacts on the entire world at large. Nothing is an island in these games, everything is inherently related to everything else, and often the quests are designed in such masterful ways that it puts Fallout 3 to shame.
    "Posseses the most beloved and iconic factions of the series" Wow so it has the Master's Army in it?

    Jokes aside, this is literally a ridiculous point: "Fallout 3 is good because it has these groups that the other games in the series has" is kinda a dumb point. Like yeah, it has the Enclave and the Brotherhood, because it ripped them out of other games, and placed them on the other side of the continent for no good reason other than to slap a Fallout label on them.

    "This is addressed in the lore" is also a Bethesda fan's favourite arguement to try and refute genuine criticism of the games. It also doesn't work as an arguement. See, if you have any sense of nuance, you'll realise that criticism of the way Supermutants and the Brotherhood are handled in Fallout 3 don't amount to "Their done differently" but rather "They're done wrongly."

    People dislike the Brotherhood because they're main goals amount to being the good guys and helping people, and shooting up Supermutants to help clear them out. They don't really have discernible goals beyond being generic good guys who do good things to help people. Yes it's handled in lore why they turned out this way, but this doesn't make them portrayed in an interesting way.

    In the same way that there's technically lore-reasons why Supermutants are the way they are in game, but that doesn't change the fact that Supermutants in Fallout 3 are generic Orcs which solely exist to be meat targets to shoot at and enemies, and don't have anywhere near as much complexity as players expected from Supermutants.

    Writing a lorewise explanation for why a group exists in a certain way doesn't absolve you of responsibility for writing them in a way that captures what made them interesting and good in the originals.

    Also you argue the BOS are more "Understandable and Human". Yeah, when I think of an Understandable and Human character I think of Superman. His desire to help people and be perfect in every single way is so relatable.

    No, when I think of being Understandable and Human, Fallout 1 and New Vegas are clearly the victors here, in that they may ultimately desire to do the right thing, but they're still at the mercy of internal power struggles and material needs.

    In Fallout 1, the Brotherhood are just a society, one that's militaristic and has a strict heirarchial structure, as well as a veneration for their founder, but still just an ordinary society. They have a vague ideology about preserving technology to help future generations, but that ideology is always secondary to their main needs: They're far more interested in trading for their own survival and looking after lost paladins than they are being ideological purists.

    The Brotherhood will eventually help reintergrate the technology they've preserved in to society if Rhombus takes control, but there are also other hardliner factions who could instead opt for war with the outside world. In other words, as per their presentation in Fallout 1: They're mostly interested in helping rebuild the outside world, but they're far more interested in being a close-knit society dedicated to their own survival, as humans would be, and the internal politics of the Brotherhood can hinder their goals sometimes.

    Fallout New Vegas shows the Brotherhood battered and defeated at the end of the war, having to survive on subsistence rations because the current High Elder has decided for their long term survival it'd be better to stay underground and hidden from the outside world. Because of this, the Hardliner factions within the Brotherhood are getting antsy, instead suggesting that they should simply reassert themselves and try and gain some level of control over the Mojave, and with much of the population disliking their hiding underground, they are gaining so much popularity that most of the Brotherhood are willing to basically replace the High Elder over a legal technicality.

    The problem is however, if the Hardliners took control, they'd be way less willing to negotiate with the NCR, since they came to power promising to assert force in their own defence, whereas MacNamara, since his entire point is that the Brotherhood should survive even if it means surrender, is far more willing to negotiate.

    Basically, New Vegas shows the political struggles of a Brotherhood trying to survive at all costs after a destructive and costly war, and the various factions that emerge from that. That is far more human than anything Fallout 3 does.

    Being Generic Good Guys is neither understandable nor human. Wanting to help people for the sake of helping people, and facing no adversity for it is neither understandable nor human.

    What makes the Brotherhood understandable and human, is ultimately having good intentions, but being more interested in preserving their own society, to the extent that often the internal needs and politics of the Brotherhood directly interfere with their goals.
    Fallout 2 literally has Wanted Posters start showing up everywhere if you have negative karma, or evil related reputation perks.

    Multiple stores close down if you kill their owners, with "Closed for business" signs appearing.

    Fallout 1 has Necropolis razed to the ground if you leave it long enough.

    This guys arguement of "Fallout 3 lets you have a major impact on the environment" doesn't really add up since

    A. They did that to do what's called "Frontloading". Having a nukeable town in the first part of the game is designed to give an impression that this is what the entire world is like (and clearly it's worked), nothing of the sort exists anywhere else.

    and
    B. Fallout 1 and 2 have a WAY more interactive and changing world, consistently throughout the game. They don't need a flashy "Nuke a town" for it to be the case.
     
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  6. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    148
    Feb 17, 2021
    You're right. Exploration means being able to go wherever you want, which Fallout 3 excels at.

    Grab a dictionary, pseud.
    Try going to straight to Old Olney or Vault 87 in Fallout 3 and seeing how well that works out for you.
    New Vegas railroads you along a preset path. You literally get a half-assed story if you don't go through that path.
    Yeah I guess the Church of Scientology discusses "economic inter-relations between towns" too lmao.

    How about getting raped by a super mutant? Or talking deathclaws?
    Just like everything from the first two games then. And New Vegas. What's your point?
    WTF does a church of scientology rip off and Juan Cruz have any value in doing? What a shitty argument.
    Cherrypicking. Talk about talking deathclaws and super mutant rape please.
    Personal shitty opinion.
    1. Caps
    2. Favor with Tenpenny
    3. Getting a suite in Tenpenny's tower, literally a safehaven from the Wasteland

    Also it's literally a roleplaying game. I guess me killing everyone in New Vegas and Fallout 1/2 is BWAAHAHAHA I'M EVIL too, eh?
    Hahahahahahahahah

    So most Fallout fans would have played Fallout 1?
    Most Fallout fans would know who the Master is?

    You're just going off your own perspective here. No objective fact.
    In your own shitty opinion.
    Complexity? AHAHHAHAHA

    So you're saying that they weren't big dumb orcs in Fallout 1? You're saying that they weren't genocidal dumb mutants in Fallout 1?

    Also Fawkes completely invalidates your argument.
    They have their nuances:
    1. They shoot ghouls and mutants on sight, regardless of whether they are hostile or friendly.
    2. They don't supply either with water from Project Purity
    3. They try taking the purifier to use it to stabilize their own influence and power in the region.
    4. They make every settlement reliant on them.
    5. Their motivations are purely selfish in regards to the water.
    6. Lyons is a weak leader and this is acknowledged both in F3 and F4.
    7. They still don't fully trust outsiders as evidenced by their attitude towards the Lone Wanderer at first.

    They also have the Outcasts which are the polar opposites if you want to play an old BoS character. Outcasts are also one of the most popular factions in the series.
    You're being deliberately reductive in this argument. Use your brain and criticize the faction, not a strawman.
     
  7. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    TWO LOCATIONS.

    Fallout New Vegas actully has most locations designed to be accessed at later levels, because it understands that players as they get more powerful will want a challenge.
    Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas's locations actually have some value, complexity, nuance and interconnectedness that Fallout 3 doesn't, so even if they were written for the Rule of Cool, they have significant value beyond that.
    A. It literally doesn't railroad you. There's nothing at all that stops you from going north.

    B. Yeah, it's almost like a game being designed so that you can access most of the main content by following the main story path IS GOOD DESIGN. Like in Fallout 3 how you literally are not shown any of the main content.

    C. Being able to skip most content and instead go to the area you're supposed to be is a staple of Fallout games. Technically you can Zerg Rush the Cathedral in Fallout 1, but the game is designed in such a way that you're expected to do the main quests. Being able to skip the main quest if you want is kinda the point.

    Compare this to the abomination that is Little Lamplight, where it's mandatory to do a quest, because it's the only way to pass a makeshift wall guarded by a literal child.
    Did I say "Literally every single element of Fallout 2 follows this pattern?"

    No, I said it was a consistent pattern in Fallout 2, which it is if you actually pay attention to the game.
    Actually the Talking Deathclaws do have a lt of inter-relation. The NCR is having it's cattle dissapear, because the Deathclaws are killing them to eat, they traded with the Brotherhood of Steel for a voice module for the Vault 13 Computer. There is actually a lot of complexities that the Talking Deathclaws in Fallout 2.

    Are they a stupid idea? Yes. However they're fully implemented in the world of Fallout 2 and have wider impacts on the world around them beyond existing in their own bubble, which is more than you can say for the vast majority of Fallout 3's towns.
    It's not cherrypicking: this is a consistent pattern of how quests in Fallout 2 are.

    I don't need literally every single element of Fallout 2 to fit the mold. I can adknowlege the game has flawed parts, while still thinking the overall pattern is good.
    I backed it up by actually discussing how the quests in Fallout 2 are more complex and thought out than any of Fallout 3's quests.

    You had no counter-arguements beyond "But what about the bad parts of Fallout 2?", Your sole rebuttal is whataboutism.
    My point wasn't "You get literally no benefit from doing it"

    It's that there's no actual reason why the people involved want to commit a genocide. It's just dumb evil people doing dumb evil things for dumb evil reasons.

    Like if someone in a game says "Go burn that orphanage and I'll give you 100 Dollars", whether or not that's a good choice depends on whether there's an actual reason why someone is asking you to do that horifically evil thing. "Megaton is an eyesore" is not an understandable motive, the entire game's just written around the idea of "What if you nuke a town?" as being one of the few major choices you have.
    Fallout 1 and 2 had plenty of evil options: Working with criminal cartels, helping out slave traders, ect., but they made sense in the context

    You could technically kill everyone, as part of the freedom the game gave you, but the game didn't make it seem like a valid and well-thought out option. Unlike Megaton which you're defending, where "Nuke a Town" is supposed to be a real meaningful choice, as opposed to doing dumb genocidal shit for no reason.
    Ok so if your definition of "Most beloved and iconic faction" is "People who are thoughtless enough to like Bethesda games see them and their lizard brains think 'Wow, this must be what Fallout is like, so I'm going to expect more of it'" rather than an actual well-thought out reason why they're beloved, then yes I guess you're right.

    But then again, if that's the logic we're going by, the entire point you made is basically equivalent to "Some people like Fallout 3, therefore it's good" which is a stupid arguement.
    Yes, in my genius opinion.
    Let's do a basic point of comparison shall we:

    In Fallout 1, the Supermutants are soldiers created for an ideology. They've been brainwashed in service of The Master, and believe strongly in the ideology that they're the next step in human evolution. Lou Tenant and the Master will both argue the points as to why Supermutants are important for the future of the world.

    The first Supermutant you come across, Harry, is an actual person, who responds to you playing with his sense of compassion, and is genuinely empathetic. There are probably dozens of Supermutants you can have conversations with, and actually discuss things with, some of which have complex motives, one of which is in love with a human even.

    Supermutants fight you in Fallout 1 because they're part of a totalitarian organisation that treats them like brothers and has come to dominate their entire lives. They fight you because they have a complex belief system and ideology as well as leaders and organisation. They're an entire ideology with a massive army, not some random orcs who are dumb and violent for no reason.
    No, one Supermutant being the exception doesn't invalidate the arguement.

    If you've written a faction around "They kill people for no reason and are big and dumb" and then you write one of them who, not even ideologically disagrees with them, but just happens to be less violent and dumb because he mutated differently, that doesn't invalidate the arguement that Supermutants are written as being Orcs who kill people for no reason.

    Supermutants in Fallout 3 for the most part aren't treated as people. You never see your average Supermutant show any empathy, you never understand what complex ideology or belief systems are causing them to fight you. Because they don't have ideas, beliefs or empathy. They aren't treated as actual people with goals or motivations, because the game isn't interested.

    Fawkes is the exception that proves the rule: The game writes him in such a way that "He's smart so he dosen't kill people mindlessly like Supermutants". He's not there to explain the complex Supermutant ideology, he's not there to humanise Supermutants, he's there to reassert that most Supermutants are dumb and kill people not for actual complex motives and reasons, but because they're big and dumb, and that the only reason he's any different is because he's not dumb.
    I'd like to see a source on their motives being selfish.

    But "They don't like mutants" and "They don't fully trust the Outsiders they're constantly sacrificing their lives to help" doesn't change anything.

    The point is, they don't feel like their own society with power structures, internal politics, and dynamics in the same way they do in Fallout 1 and New Vegas. They don't feel like a close-knit group of people who's motivations and ideas are understandable given their desire to survive their current circumstances.

    For the most part they're there to go on a crusade to clean up the wastes because they're the good guys. They feel a lot less like the realistic new human civilisation that's own internal needs are more important than ideology of the other games.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 4
  8. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    148
    Feb 17, 2021
    New Vegas has two two high level zones:
    1. Deathclaw Sanctuary next to Goodsprings
    2. Deathclaw Sanctuary next to Hoover Dam

    At least Fallout 3 has diversity. Checkmate.
    Backtracking. First they don't have this mythical "rule of cool" in comparison to 3, now they do but it's acceptable.

    You can't be this dumb.
    The massive deathclaw sanctuary above Goodsprings.
    Not the point I was making. Constant strawmanning of my argument doesn't make you appear intellectual, dummy.
    Yeah and Fallout 3 has this. Fallout NV doesn't, at least not by default without mods or cheats.
    Wrong, there are two ways to do that quest.

    1. Convince Joseph to access the broken computer terminal to open the door to Vault 87.
    2. Passing through Murder Pass, the much harder option.

    It's not mandatory to do anything. Actually play the game before you criticize it, will you?
    So, there are elements of Fallout 2 which you have conceded are there just for spontaneity or bizarrity. lol.
    Personal opinion. You didn't state solid fact or anything that cannot be interpreted in a specific way. You just keep saying stupid shit like "quests in Fallout 2 are more complex and thought out than any of Fallout 3's quests" and then when I ask you to back it up, you use something that is debatable and not objective fact.

    It's fine to have an opinion, we all do. But if you're going to pretend your opinion is infallible prepare to back it up. And back it up with actual solid evidence. Not things which can be debated until the cows come home.
    Your point was:
    Jesus Christ you're stupid.

    Do you not see that motivator = reason or what?

    See my above points.
    Okay. Here's several other points on why you would bomb Megaton if you didn't like the "eyesore" point (which I didn't even make):
    1. Caps
    2. Favor with Tenpenny
    3. Getting a suite in Tenpenny's tower, literally a safehaven from the Wasteland

    Actually address the point, dummy. Typing out thousands of words and making a dissertation isn't useful if it has no substance. You will learn this once you graduate elementary school.
    See above points.
    Citation required.
    Uh... because they're big green and strong?
    Uh... because they're mutated?

    Not convincing arguments. Super mutants are too dumb to see this. That is literally the whole point of the game. If super mutants actually were superior to humans, the super mutant ending would be good ending, correct?

    This is all irrelevant anyway because you can literally talk the Master down by saying "omg you can't procreate how will you make more once FEV runs out". This is a fundamental baseline thing and you, a literal who, can talk down a fucking main antagonist by bringing up such an obvious point that he hasn't considered. Brilliant writing.

    If I make a sterile army full of big green orcs and I tell them to do my bidding to wipe out all of mankind, but don't consider what will happen once I actually do wipe out all of mankind, I'm not only flawed, I'm fundamentally retarded.

    Lol. Ideologies don't mean nuance. Nazis in Call of Duty games have ideologies. Do they have nuance too? According to your logic, yes.

    No he doesn't. He is one example of this. The other being Uncle Leo.

    Both of them are there to humanize Super Mutants, but not to make the others seem like big green orcs. I don't know where you're getting this but it seems like you pulled it out of your ass like you did with the rest of these points.

    The supermutants in D.C. have the same ideology as the Master, that they are the superior race.

    But here's the difference, everything in game actually forms that.

    BoS hate them, don't accept them, shoot them on sight.
    Settlers are terrified of them, don't accept them either, shoot them on sight.

    The Enclave come in and shoot them on sight as well.

    When you're an outsider for so long and you're not accepted by literally anyone, you turn to forming these sorts of isolationist and supremacist ideologies. This never is explicitly stated in the case of Fallout 1.

    Common sense for one.

    They canonically use it as leverage to take over D.C and make settlements dependant on them. Fallout 4 implies, if not outright states it.

    Backpedalling. Oh God.
    And I've given you reasons as to why Lyons BoS is a deep faction, and you've shrugged it off to make this shitty point.
    Okay whatever. I guess people don't see a shitty wasteland and want to clear it up. I guess people don't form factions and societies to do this.
    Wait, isn't that the entire purpose of the NCR?
     
  9. Norzan

    Norzan Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 7, 2017
    Shitty trolling aside, imagine thinking Power of the Atom is in any way, shape or form even acceptable. A series that prided itself of having nuance and depth in a lot of its content, with characters that had believable motivations backed up by backstories that mostly made sense, being delvoved into saturday morning cartoon bullshit where a cartoon character asks you to blow up a town, a town that did nothing to you, because that same cartoon thinks it ruins the view from his tower. We went from morally grey characters, to basically cartoons where there's clear cut good guys and bad guys.

    And then the cherry on top is the fact that there's next to no consequences, and the game goes out its way to make a character survive a point blank range nuclear explosion just so that you won't miss out on a stupid quest. Also no, shitty unmarked quests aren't consequences where they are so pointless that they might as well not exist. And no, losing a "trade hub" and an house doesn't meant jack and shit when the cartoon character's tower is basically the replacement. You lose literally nothing, and the game "scolds you" by being "disappointed" with you.

    There are Bethesda fans that unironically think this is acceptable.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 3
  10. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    That's literally not railroading.

    Putting a challenging area in your way is not Railroading, it's creating a realistic challenge.

    Here's what railroading is: Putting a town you literally can't enter without doing a quest in your path. Like Little Lamplight.
    By "Reason" I meant it's never explained in Universe why you're doing it

    If Fallout 3 had "I'll give you 100 bucks to burn down an orphanage" vs "Please donate to the orphanage" as one of it's quests, I'd expect it to have actual reason as to why you're doing any of this, as in the people involved have an actual reason to want this to happen.

    Otherwise it feels like the most cartoonish good vs evil choice being shoehorned in to the game just for the sake of it, as opposed to something which makes it feel like a more believable world.
    Except that's literally my point:

    The game puts arbritrary bullshit in your way to stop you achieving your goals, that there's no in-game reason is slowing you down.

    The reason the Supermutant ending doesn't work is because they're infertile, not because "All mutants are dumb", in fact a big proportion of them have plenty of brains. That's literally why the Master and Lou Tenant can argue their superior.
    He didn't realise the Supermutants were infertile. It's not that he didn't consider procreation, it's that in his utmost devotion to his goal he didn't realise the Supermutants had a major flaw: he assumed they were perfect, and it took active dissection of them to realise that they're correcting hormonal imbalances laeding to infertility.
    Again: the Master doesn't know Supermutants are infertile, and has no reason to assume it.
    Yeah, another mutant who's entire point is "The other mutants are dumb and violent with no humanising motivations. The only reason I'm allowed to be treated as a person is because I'm smart"
    Except the difference is the Master's Army was an organised movement with goals, a clearly stated ideology, a leadership structure. All of their actions are planned in advance to try and achieve their goals.

    It's unclear why Supermutants in Fallout 3 even fight, or who's leading attacks, why they started attacking people rather than settling down, why they came to believe the thinsgs they believe, who leads them, how their society is structured, ect.
    You mean unlike having constant brainwashing, being part of an organisation that's entire ideology states that, having a major religion tell you it's the case, ect.
    It means that they're treated as people.

    Give me one example of a HOSTILE supermutant in Fallout 3, I.E one who agrees with Supermutant society at large and is fighting on their side, as being shown to have a meaningful belief system, empathy, emotions and motives beyond "Kill, Kill, HAHAHA"

    EVERY supermutant in Fallout 1 believes something and has real motivations. Most Supermutants in Fallout 3 lack Empathy, and the game does nothing to humanise Supermutant society or make it seem like it's filled with people with real, complex emotions and empathy.
    So in other words

    "I literally have nothing backing up this interpretation of Fallout 3. I just assume it's the case, despite the game literally being written otherwise, because that would make the game seem better than it actually is"
    The NCR formed for a variety of reasons: Trade routes, economic interdependence, Shady Sands wanting to clear up nearby threats, the power of Brahmin Barons, ect.

    You can clearly see all of the various economic and political reasons the NCR formed.

    Not so much with the Brotherhood.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 3
  11. Norzan

    Norzan Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 7, 2017
    I have literally gone in every possible direction at the start of New Vegas with no issue. The meme that you are raliroaded at the start of New Vegas is one parroted by people who have no fucking clue what they are talking about.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 3
  12. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    148
    Feb 17, 2021
    For a level 1 player? ahhahahahahahha

    big challenge there.
    that's what roleplaying is for.
    stop lying.
    I've given you several reasons. All of which you've ignored. I will quote myself again.
    New Vegas does this too, but this is your justification:
    in other words, he doesn't know what the fuck he's done this all for.
    And I have given you plenty of reasons why they arent. Read my post and stop strawmanning retard.
    organized =/= deep
    ideology =/= nuanced

    maybe for you dumb ass it does though. To anyone with brain cells it doesn't.
    It's unclear who random raider 1 and random raider 2 in Fallout 1 and 2 are led by as well.

    And let's be honest, if you're being attacked by humans every where you turn, do you need a leader to hate them?

    Animals for instance. Do we as humans need a leader for us to avoid wild animals and kill them when we see them?
    No, because we know they are going to attack us, and we need to be vigilant.
    Same thing here.
    Use your brain.
    That's exactly what you are doing.
    That's because they were already a pre-existing faction.
    Lyons chapter was exactly that. A chapter.

    Jesus fucking christ.
     
  13. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    148
    Feb 17, 2021
    Correction: With cheats and mods.
     
  14. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 7, 2015
    Thinking about it, do you miss out on a single quest? They specifically don't kill Moira and have her ghoulify despite being at the epicenter of the blast because they don't want players to miss out on Wasteland Survival Guide. What other quests are there in Megaton? There's Blood Ties, but it makes no actual difference if you start that in Megaton or one you get to Arefu. You could start Replicated Man here, but again its basically irrelevant till you get to Rivet City and makes no difference where you start it. There's Power of the Atom... and I think that's it? There's also the unmarked quest with the water pipes and Leo Stahl's drug addiction, but I'm pretty sure there is nothing else you miss out on in Megaton other than the aesthetic of the settlement as oppposed to the aesthetic of Tenpenny Tower.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  15. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    It would also be a challenge for a Level 1 player to get Power Armour from Navarro.

    Does that mean they should level down Enclave Soldiers to make them more manageable?

    No, because that would make the game worse, to anyone who's capable of thinking about it for more than 5 seconds.
    MY ENTIRE POINT IS THAT ALLISTER TENPENNY HAS NO REASON TO ASK YOU TO DO WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

    WHY DO I HAVE TO SPELL THIS OUT?
    It's literally factually true given information presented in game, such as the multiple intelligent supermutants you're shown.
    No it fucking doesn't, here's the core difference:

    New Vegas puts enemies in a path, and doesn't scale them down to make them manageable at all levels. This means that you're facing a challenge that's realistic to what it would be in the game world, where if you're not heavily armed enough you won't be able to take on a fucking deathclaw immediately.

    Fallout 3 literally puts arbritrary barriers in your way, such as a wall guarded by a literal child that you cannot pass without doing a quest. There's no in-game reason for that barrier to exist AND it's impossible to pass, whereas New Vegas is simply a challenge to pass.
    It's certainly a lot more nuanced than a group of peopl putting gorebags up to eat, shooting people on sight, and the majority of them not possesing any individuality or motivations beyond "Kill humans!"
    Which group of Raiders do you mean?, The Khans are lead by Garl Deathhand, the Vipers are a religious organisation dedicated to worshiping serpents, some of the Raiders in Fallout 2 are mercenaries paid off by Mr Bishop to harass Vault City, some of the Raiders in Fallout 2 are led by Darius for revenge against the NCR.

    Besides, "Raiders" does not mean "Literally one of the game's major type of mutants".

    Like there are plenty of groups of Raiders in 1 and 2 that have their ideology and existence justified.

    Supermutants as a whole in Fallout 3 exist to be monsters to be shot at. They don't have a clearly defind purpose, sense of individuality, beliefs about themselves or the world, complex emotions, interpersonal relationships.

    Nothing about Mutants, other than the two who's entire backstory was "I was smart and therefore didn't like killing"(Which reinforces the idea that Supermutants only kill because they're mindless orcs), implies that they are people with understandable motivations and beliefs and emotions.

    Nothing implies they are complex individuals with good reasons to fight. In fact, they literally collect gore bags and hang them up and brag about how much they love killing.
    No it isn't.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 3
  16. Norzan

    Norzan Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 7, 2017
    The mere fact you can't do it without those proves how much of a pussy ass bitch you are. :smug:
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 3
  17. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    148
    Feb 17, 2021
    Power armor is an end game item.

    A route shouldn't be endgame content because nobody would have use for it once they get to the Strip.
    Because you are a merc.
    CITATION REQUIRED.
    head through murder pass then idiot.
    You know what's complex? Implication.
    The fact that you need to be babied lore-wise is an example of this.
    Yeah. The Khans aren't complete villains either. They have completely moral dilemmas.
    Yes it is.
     
  18. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 7, 2015
    This argument doesn't really hold since he has already stated that he hates Fo1/2, so appealing to them isn't actually an argument.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  19. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 7, 2015
    The player's reasons for joining him aren't especially important (though of course its always nice to give incentivizations/avenues for roleplay), it's Tenpenny's reasons.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  20. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    It's almost like the whole point is that there's different stuff to find, and higher level enemies in one part of the map, that you can come back to later and clear out for all the stuff hidden there.
    You literally have missed the point multiple times.

    "It makes no sense that people would want you to nuke a town. The reason why there are people paying you to do this in the first place is never justified enough, and it's clear it only exists for the sake of giving you the option to nuke a town."

    "But people are paying you to do it."

    Argh.
    https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vincent_(Fallout)
    https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Viscious
    https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Flip
    https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Lieutenant
    https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Kyle_(super_mutant)

    Every single one of the Supermutants in this list you can have a conversation with about either their history, their emotions, their experiences of being a Supermutant, or their ideological beliefs.

    Supermutants are literally, multiple times shown to be people with complex emotions and belief systems. The game frequently subverts the idea that they're just dumb orcs.
    Let's imply that these Supermutants are deep, while giving the ones you fight no humanising traits whatsoever. That's great isn't it.

    The only Supermutants being humanised being ones that explicitly think the others are dumb orcs is kinda a funny point isn't it. Doesn't that imply the game doesn't view them as people but as enemies?
    The Khans don't shoot you on sight. They try and ransom and negotiate and extort you. They act like actual bandits would, not as bullet sponges, but as people who do ransoms and raiding for a living, and are capable of negotiating as part of the trade.

    Supermutants aren't that. They are pretty much never shown to have foresight in Fallout 3, or any kind of redeeming qualities, rationality, or motivations beyond murder.
    I'm doing nothing of the sort.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 3