Fallout 3: Fallout At It's Finest

[Heisenberg]

It's almost like the whole point is that there's different stuff to find, and higher level enemies in one part of the map, that you can come back to later and clear out for all the stuff hidden there.

But what is the point?

We can keep going around in this circle. But you haven't addressed my main point?

Why would anyone go back to the Deathclaw Sanctuary after they've reached The Strip. There's no high-tier loot there neither is there any points of interest. It's a route that is closed off to simulate difficulty without actually being understandably difficult.

"It makes no sense that people would want you to nuke a town. The reason why there are people paying you to do this in the first place is never justified enough, and it's clear it only exists for the sake of giving you the option to nuke a town."

Mister Burke states he's going to give you caps for it and you can even bargain with him.
Mister Burke is also the cleanest dressed man in the Saloon, so one can make a fair assumption he's wealthy.
If you have also been to Tenpenny Tower, which the game allows you to do, you can make a fair assumption that helping Tenpenny will get you close enough to Tenpenny to be at an advantage.
Being fresh out of Vault 101, the player has more reason to do this, because they haven't been outside long enough in the wasteland to truly adapt to it. Going back to a place of relative comfort is preferable, which Tenpenny Tower is.

Every single one of the Supermutants in this list you can have a conversation with about either their history, their emotions, their experiences of being a Supermutant, or their ideological beliefs.

Supermutants are literally, multiple times shown to be people with complex emotions and belief systems. The game frequently subverts the idea that they're just dumb orcs.

Stop finding any dumb old excuse to hate Fallout 3.

Just because the supermutants don't like you enough to narrate you their biography doesn't mean they're dumb orcs.
Fawkes even subverts this, but you just convieniently skip over this point because he only contrasts the rest of them.

Let's imply that these Supermutants are deep, while giving the ones you fight no humanising traits whatsoever. That's great isn't it.

They fucking talk out of combat. They have conversations. Certain super mutants will talk to you and express emotions.
How much clearer can I make this point?

The only Supermutants being humanised being ones that explicitly think the others are dumb orcs is kinda a funny point isn't it. Doesn't that imply the game doesn't view them as people but as enemies?

Wow so I can acknowledge the existence of criminals without being one.
That's such bad writing.

The Khans don't shoot you on sight. They try and ransom and negotiate and extort you. They act like actual bandits would, not as bullet sponges, but as people who do ransoms and raiding for a living, and are capable of negotiating as part of the trade.

Haha. Supermutants do that in Fallout 3 too. Just not to the player.
That's why you see hostages and prisoners in their camps which you can set free.

The reason they don't ransom with the player is because there's no need to. The player isn't related whatsoever to the prisoners.

Supermutants aren't that. They are pretty much never shown to have foresight in Fallout 3, or any kind of redeeming qualities, rationality, or motivations beyond murder.

Neither do they in Fallout 1. A few lines of dialogue and "muh emotions" doesn't humanize them well enough.

I'm doing nothing of the sort.

Yes you are.

 

[Jogre]

Mister Burke states he's going to give you caps for it and you can even bargain with him.
Mister Burke is also the cleanest dressed man in the Saloon, so one can make a fair assumption he's wealthy.
If you have also been to Tenpenny Tower, which the game allows you to do, you can make a fair assumption that helping Tenpenny will get you close enough to Tenpenny to be at an advantage.
Being fresh out of Vault 101, the player has more reason to do this, because they haven't been outside long enough in the wasteland to truly adapt to it. Going back to a place of relative comfort is preferable, which Tenpenny Tower is.

Literally addressed this multiple times but you're incapable of reading.

Mr Burke and Tenpenny don't have fleshed out motivations as to why this is a good idea.

You're just offered money to blow up a town for the hell of it. You can come up with in-character reasons to accept it, but that doesn't mean that there's in-game reasons why that choice even exists.

Fawkes even subverts this, but you just convieniently skip over this point because he only contrasts the rest of them.

It's almost like I've addressed this multiple times.

Fawkes is literally portrayed as exceptional, and at odds with the rest of the Supermutants.

He's not your average Supermutant, in fact him and

They fucking talk out of combat. They have conversations. Certain super mutants will talk to you and express emotions.

Except, as I've stated multiple times: The ones that talk to you are treated as exception, not as your average Supermutants.

Haha. Supermutants do that in Fallout 3 too. Just not to the player.
That's why you see hostages and prisoners in their camps which you can set free.

This is entirely speculation.

By an equal measure you could say the Gorebags they have hanging up everywhere implies they eat those prisoners.

Also, why do complex people with emotions, and real motivations, keep gore bags hung up? That doesn't seem like something that emotionally complex and nuanced people would do.

Neither do they in Fallout 1. A few lines of dialogue and "muh emotions" doesn't humanize them well enough.

Multiple Mutants fighting explicitly for the army of Mutants being portrayed with literal human motivations and ideas doesn't humanise them

 

[Heisenberg]

Mr Burke and Tenpenny don't have fleshed out motivations as to why this is a good idea.

Mister Burke is working off the orders of Tenpenny who is his employer. That's his motivation.
Does Smithers have to justify any sort of moral dilemma to take orders from Mr. Burns?

Tenpenny is just a psychopath which is hinted at in the game via numerous quests and dialogue.
For instance, he sends a team of mercs to their death fully understanding that they are going to die.
He sits on his balcony all day sniping random animals out in the distance.
The guy is a psycho.

The fiends in New Vegas. Do they need an explanation for the things they do as well? Do they need a 40 page thesis justifying the moral quandaries of their actions?

It's almost like I've addressed this multiple times.

And I keep shooting your argument down with the exact same point that you don't address.

Fawkes is literally portrayed as exceptional, and at odds with the rest of the Supermutants.

Except, as I've stated multiple times: The ones that talk to you are treated as exception, not as your average Supermutants.

Being the only supermutant you can share life stories with due to the game design and hardware limitations =/= being exceptional.

You pulled this non-point out of your ass.

If every Super Mutant in the game was voiced and has multiple lines explaining their fundamental core ideologies, feelings on a certain matter, etc, the game wouldn't be able to fit on an Xbox 360 HDD.

Even if we disregard this point, what tard would go through the effort of listening to all this?
And not to mention how it would cost Bethesda up the ass in terms of voice acting budget.

You'll just end up criticizing it anyway for not having as many dialogue options as you would have hoped and not enough VA's to do it all. Always a criticism with you.

It's not like every super mutant in Fallout 1/2 was fully voiced now was it?

And not only that, but what would even be the point? The game isn't Super Mutant Friends 3 it's fucking Fallout. Y'know, the game where you make a character and set out into the Wasteland to have fun? Like all video games?

Jesus Christ. These aren't fucking Wasteland simulators. They're video games you autist.

This is entirely speculation.

Lol "entirely speculation".

What else are they doing to them tard? Eating them with some pork and beans? Making them coffee and placing them in cubicles to file PowerPoints? Telling them bedtime stories?

By an equal measure you could say the Gorebags they have hanging up everywhere implies they eat those prisoners.

Ummm.... why would they tie them up then idiot?
Why wouldn't they just shoot them and drag them back to camp? It's not like they have big hulking muscles and a towering physique, is it?

Also, why do complex people with emotions, and real motivations, keep gore bags hung up? That doesn't seem like something that emotionally complex and nuanced people would do.

Why do people with emotional complexity and nuance throw people into VATS to watch them literally mutate and suffer?
Doesn't seem like it's rational does it?

Multiple Mutants fighting explicitly for the army of Mutants being portrayed with literal human motivations and ideas doesn't humanise them

I'm going off your own shitty logic, tard.

Everything I say you keep evading.
It doesn't matter if Fawkes or Uncle Leo exists.
It doesn't matter if the super mutants are hated by the dominant factions in the wasteland to the point where they are shot on sight.
It doesn't matter if they're literally roaming a lonely wasteland that nobody wants them in.
It doesn't matter if they aren't given water or food like the other human settlements are.
It doesn't matter if they're literally outcasted by everyone in the wasteland.
It doesn't matter that not even many of the ghouls want to communicate with them.

Oh no boy. They are supposed to be goody-two-shoes and adopt this little Lone Wanderer who kills them for sport into their ranks for no reason, then tell them their life story over a warm cuppa Joe.

Do you know how ridiculous this sounds?

 

[Jogre]

Tenpenny is just a psychopath which is hinted at in the game via numerous quests and dialogue.

Tenpenny just wants to nuke an entire town because he's EVIL lulz.

Ok, such complex character motivation.

Being the only supermutant you can share life stories with due to the game design and hardware limitations =/= being exceptional.

You pulled this non-point out of your ass.

If every Super Mutant in the game was voiced and has multiple lines explaining their fundamental core ideologies, feelings on a certain matter, etc, the game wouldn't be able to fit on an Xbox 360 HDD.

Ok let me put it this way:

You'd think the game would make Fawkes or Uncle Leo explain why Supermutants attack people, and what their underlying ideology is, how their society is structured, the complex emotions they have and how at odds Supermutant society was with the outside world.

If you're interpretation was accurate, and the reason Supermutants attack people is because they're shunned by the outside world, the game would spend literally any effort trying to treat them as a valid society filled with empathetic and reasonable people right?

You'd think that'd be one of the most basic considerations the writers would have when writing Supermutants, no?, Like if you were writing a group of people who were complex characters with fleshed-out motivatins and meant to be sympathetic, you'd write understandable motives for why they act.

In fact, if I was writing a group of sentient mutants, having some way of indicating their motives, and why they behave the way they do if they were enemies would be the FIRST thing to cross my mind, as well as making it explicitly clear that they aren't ireedemably violent, but empathetic people who any conflict with is arbritrary and not indicative of them being less morally worthwhile than you.

But it doesn't.

In fact, here's what Uncle Leo says about Supermutants:

"I tried to get them to understand that there was more to life than fighting and killing, but they wouldn't listen."

Does that sound like a group of people with complex ideologies and motives?

No, because that's not how they're written. It sounds like they have an entire society based around violence and Uncle Leo was forced out because of it.

That's not a sympathetic portrayal of Supermutants.

What else are they doing to them tard? Eating them with some pork and beans?

Given that the game literally portrays them as cannibals: Yes quite possibly.

If every Super Mutant in the game was voiced and has multiple lines explaining their fundamental core ideologies, feelings on a certain matter, etc, the game wouldn't be able to fit on an Xbox 360 HDD.

It's almost like Fallout 1 was able to do it.

And before you carry on with that "Not every character was voiced" bullshit, so what? If Bethesda can't make a game as fleshed out and human feeling as the original Fallout game, maybe they shouldn't make a Fallout Game.

You can't justify a game doing something pretty much worse than Fallout 1 because "Bethesda couldn't do it with the technology"

If they can't do something with the technology, just use an engine closer to the Fallout 1 engine, make it PC Exclusive. I don't care how you do it, but if Fallout 1 can do it so can you, if you just scrap all the unnecessary bullshit that Fallout 1 didn't have.

 

[Heisenberg]

Tenpenny just wants to nuke an entire town because he's EVIL lulz.

Because he's a psychopath. Do you not realize that there are people out there who are actually real life psychopaths? Or were dropped on your head as a baby?

Ok, such complex character motivation.

You still haven't addressed my point about the fiends, dummy.

The fiends in New Vegas. Do they need an explanation for the things they do as well? Do they need a 40 page thesis justifying the moral quandaries of their actions?

You'd think the game would make Fawkes or Uncle Leo explain why Supermutants attack people, and what their underlying ideology is, how their society is structured, the complex emotions they have and how at odds Supermutant society was with the outside world.

First of all, you don't need everything explained to you like you're literally a pre-schooler.

Second of all, Fawkes had been locked in a vault his entire life and Leo is a pacifist who was outcasted from the other super mutants for this very reason.

So one can literally make the connection (as long as they haven't had their receptors blown) that super mutants view themselves as being in a war with humans because they have been attacked and demonized for so long.

Put two and two together man.

If Fawkes is a friendly super mutant because he's not been exposed to the outside
And Uncle Leo is a friendly super mutant who has been exposed to the outside
And both the Brotherhood and BoS shoot them on sight
And the many other super mutants are hostile to the player

How can you not make the connection?

If you're interpretation was accurate, and the reason Supermutants attack people is because they're shunned by the outside world, the game would spend literally any effort trying to treat them as a valid society filled with empathetic and reasonable people right?

Are you actually THIS retarded?

You want super mutants from a faction of hostile super mutants to discuss their philosophy with you over dinner. Wtf?

Any true believers in such an ideology would fucking shoot you on sight, no matter what you say. Only reason this doesn't happen in the earlier games is because the Master needs you. Same reason Caesar doesn't rape and enslave a female Courier.

You'd think that'd be one of the most basic considerations the writers would have when writing Supermutants, no?, Like if you were writing a group of people who were complex characters with fleshed-out motivatins and meant to be sympathetic, you'd write understandable motives for why they act.

The motives are embedded within implication. I don't think it needs to be explained any more unless you're a literal retard.

How about these reasons? You still haven't truly acknowledged these:
They're outcasted by everyone
They're shot on sight by 99% of humans
They have no trade with humans whatsoever
Humans continuously take their supplies and raid them

In fact, here's what Uncle Leo says about Supermutants:

"I tried to get them to understand that there was more to life than fighting and killing, but they wouldn't listen."

Does that sound like a group of people with complex ideologies and motives?

Yes.

People with complex ideologies and motives don't go pacifist instantly because one of them told them to.

This only humanizes them from my perspective. Since when in human society has 1 guy instantly changed the views of everyone else in their society? I mean some ancient philosophers were even executed for holding beliefs different to the consensus.

 

[Jogre]

Because he's a psychopath. Do you not realize that there are people out there who are actually real life psychopaths? Or were dropped on your head as a baby?

Fucking wanna Nuke a Town for no discernible reason, waste money and resources on it. But it's ok because I'm crazy bwahahaha

You still haven't addressed my point about the fiends, dummy.

Fiends do drugs, trade slaves and rob caravans.

They're raiders. It's ok to have raiders in a game.

But if you're writing AN ENTIRE SPECIES OF MUTANT, you should presumably write them in a way that makes them interesting, and discusses the nuances of their society, and how they interact with human society, right?

That would be the first priority of any compotent writer.

Bethesda could have easily written it that way if they wanted to. They didn't because they wanted Supermutants to be Orcs for you to shoot at, and not people you have to genuinely think about or interact with:

Case in point: Literally every other Fallout game implies Mutants are people and has multiple societies of Mutants you can interact with, AND humanises and explains the motives of the Mutants you have to fight.

So one can literally make the connection (as long as they haven't had their receptors blown) that super mutants view themselves as being in a war with humans because they have been attacked and demonized for so long.

Ok, but you never see this from the perspective of the Supermutants.

You never see the hundreds of Supermutants you kill being treated as victims of your violence.

They're treated as monsters for you to shoot.

How is this not obvious from their entire presentation in game, from hanging up gore bags to yelling "Time to die". This isn't Bethesda trying to portray them as victims of endless cycles of violence, this is Bethesda portraying them as violent.

You want super mutants from a faction of hostile super mutants to discuss their philosophy with you over dinner. Wtf?

I want them to HAVE a philosophy and concrete ideas, and human motivations.

It was Bethesda's choice to write them as "Shoot on sight, don't negotiate". They could have easily wrote in situations where you have a discussion with one of the hostile Supermutants and have them explain their motives or be forced to negotiate with you.

They're outcasted by everyone
They're shot on sight by 99% of humans
They have no trade with humans whatsoever
Humans continuously take their supplies and raid them

Why?

Ghouls aren't treated like that.

Why do people shoot Supermutants on sight, other than to justify Supermutants shooting them on sight.

It seems like the entire game is written in such a way that Supermutants are always at war with humans, and never discuss their complex motivations, or get treated as anything but people to shoot at.

Like, if Bethesda were compotent, they could have easily wrote a situation where Supermutants experiences are discussed and treated as valid.

This only humanizes them from my perspective. Since when in human society has 1 guy instantly changed the views of everyone else in their society? I mean some ancient philosophers were even executed for holding beliefs different to the consensus.

Except Leo's line implies that Supermutants just kill because they think it's all there is to life.

If he had explained the nuances of Supermutant society

But there's nothing in his line which implies that Supermutant society is anything other than killing and violence for the sake of it.

Like the game never implies that all the Hostile Supermutants actually have any redeeming qualities, or complex emotions, or empathy, or any underlying philosophy. It always treats them as an other who you can never understand.

If Bethesda intended to write Supermutants as though they're people with understandable motives, then it would be obvious in the way they wrote them. Since the game seems to imply that Leo is just one Supermutant who thinks there's more to life than killing and the others don't, it's clear that this was never Bethesda's intent.

Do you seiriously need to be explained to that the game doesn't show any intent to make the Hostile Supermutants seem like people with complex and deep emotions, given the fact that it avoids doing so at every turn?

 

[Heisenberg]

Fucking wanna Nuke a Town for no discernible reason, waste money and resources on it. But it's ok because I'm crazy bwahahaha

Explain Ted Bundy, Ed Gein and other psychopaths then, genius.

But if you're writing AN ENTIRE SPECIES OF MUTANT, you should presumably write them in a way that makes them interesting, and discusses the nuances of their society, and how they interact with human society, right?

Stop right there.

Are you honestly forgetting I made the point about the fiends in reference to your comments on Tenpenny?

Perhaps you might want to see a doctor.

Bethesda could have easily written it that way if they wanted to. They didn't because they wanted Supermutants to be Orcs for you to shoot at, and not people you have to genuinely think about or interact with:

We keep going around in circles, so next time you repeat yourself I'm just going to quote a previous point I made that you're skirting around and avoiding, hoping I forgot the point I made.

They're outcasted by everyone
They're shot on sight by 99% of humans
They have no trade with humans whatsoever
Humans continuously take their supplies and raid them

If Fawkes is a friendly super mutant because he's not been exposed to the outside
And Uncle Leo is a friendly super mutant who has been exposed to the outside
And both the Brotherhood and BoS shoot them on sight
And the many other super mutants are hostile to the player

How can you not make the connection?

super mutants view themselves as being in a war with humans because they have been attacked and demonized for so long.

Any true believers in such an ideology would fucking shoot you on sight, no matter what you say. Only reason this doesn't happen in the earlier games is because the Master needs you. Same reason Caesar doesn't rape and enslave a female Courier.

You never see the hundreds of Supermutants you kill being treated as victims of your violence.

This isn't Spec Ops: The Line, dummy. Fallout 3 isn't a game about guilt tripping you for acting in self-defence against an army of Hulks.

How is this not obvious from their entire presentation in game, from hanging up gore bags to yelling "Time to die". This isn't Bethesda trying to portray them as victims of endless cycles of violence, this is Bethesda portraying them as violent.

They're outcasted by everyone
They're shot on sight by 99% of humans
They have no trade with humans whatsoever
Humans continuously take their supplies and raid them

If Fawkes is a friendly super mutant because he's not been exposed to the outside
And Uncle Leo is a friendly super mutant who has been exposed to the outside
And both the Brotherhood and BoS shoot them on sight
And the many other super mutants are hostile to the player

How can you not make the connection?

super mutants view themselves as being in a war with humans because they have been attacked and demonized for so long.

Any true believers in such an ideology would fucking shoot you on sight, no matter what you say. Only reason this doesn't happen in the earlier games is because the Master needs you. Same reason Caesar doesn't rape and enslave a female Courier.

I want them to HAVE a philosophy and concrete ideas, and human motivations.

Okay. Let me break it down for you.

Super mutants are isolationist in nature, being wronged by humans for the entirety of their lifespan.
Super mutants are supremacist in nature, being only exposed to ideas of how humans are violent and non-accepting of them.

Is that okay sweetie? This is all implied in game. It doesn't even have to be said. But you're just playing retarded.

It was Bethesda's choice to write them as "Shoot on sight, don't negotiate". They could have easily wrote in situations where you have a discussion with one of the hostile Supermutants and have them explain their motives or be forced to negotiate with you.

It isn't necessary. I don't stop to talk to the demons in DOOM or random enemy no.1 in Pillars of Eternity.

Except Leo's line implies that Supermutants just kill because they think it's all there is to life.

How they are treated, how can you blame them?

Like the game never implies that all the Hostile Supermutants actually have any redeeming qualities, or complex emotions, or empathy, or any underlying philosophy. It always treats them as an other who you can never understand.

If Fawkes is a friendly super mutant because he's not been exposed to the outside
And Uncle Leo is a friendly super mutant who has been exposed to the outside
And both the Brotherhood and BoS shoot them on sight
And the many other super mutants are hostile to the player

How can you not make the connection?

super mutants view themselves as being in a war with humans because they have been attacked and demonized for so long.

Any true believers in such an ideology would fucking shoot you on sight, no matter what you say. Only reason this doesn't happen in the earlier games is because the Master needs you. Same reason Caesar doesn't rape and enslave a female Courier.

Do you seiriously need to be explained to that the game doesn't show any intent to make the Hostile Supermutants seem like people with complex and deep emotions, given the fact that it avoids doing so at every turn?

You need to have everything explained to you. Save your bullshit.

 

[Hassknecht]

I am the one who bans.

 

[Jogre]

Explain Ted Bundy, Ed Gein and other psychopaths then, genius.

"Psychopaths exist, therefore wanting to blow up an entire town for fun is good writing"

Super mutants are isolationist in nature, being wronged by humans for the entirety of their lifespan.
Super mutants are supremacist in nature, being only exposed to ideas of how humans are violent and non-accepting of them.

Ok, so maybe the game could have actually wrote them as sympathetic characters, and had terminal entries where Supermutants discuss their ideas and emotions.

Or y'know, literally anywhere you could find out about how Supermutant society is structured, or how

Literally every other Fallout game has managed to make both hostile and non-hostile supermutants treated as compelling people with reasons for believing the things they do.

Literally make a single Hostile Supermutant sympathetic. It's not fucking hard.

If Bethesda wanted to do it, they would have done it, but they don't. They wanted Supermutants to be orcs to shoot at, this is obvious from how they're written in game.

 

[Norzan]

And he's gone.

By the way, he apparently made an account on the RPGCodex. Wonder if he'll go there now, and oh boy, i'm excited as fuck.

 

[Hassknecht]

Dis gon b gud

 

[Atomic Postman]

Did he actually get banned?

 

[1Punman]

Dis gon b gud

I more than agree.

 

[Norzan]

If he goes there making the same threads and being this dickish, he's gonna get fucked so hard in the ass he's not gonna be able to sit on anything for the rest of his life.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

I am the one who bans.

 

[PaxVenire]

"Glad that's over."

 

[1Punman]

"Glad that's over."

It ain't shoving the picture.

 

[Hassknecht]

Did he actually get banned?

The crossed out name would imply so.

 

[Atomic Postman]

The crossed out name would imply so.

Doesn't appear like that to me on my browser for whatever reason.

Anyway, guy was a gold medal winner at mental gymnastics. Exemplary exercise in how to pivot and run away from the argument whilst saving face.

Not as good as chunglord but the persistence was remarkable, though judging by how obviously he was from /v/ with his tone and terminology, spending literally the whole day twattishly arguing is par for the course.

 

[Norzan]

I also had an assumption that he didn't actually played the first two Fallout games (his criticisms of Fallout 2 were literally only the two most overused criticism of the game, the talking deathclaws and the pop culture references). That combined with all the conspiracy theories with this forum leads me to believe that he came from Reddit or /v/, since those are the sites that like to make up these conspiracy theories about the site.

He was also, word for word. parroting MATN's Fallout 3 video.