Fallout 3 OXM 10/11 confirmed

[PaladinHeart]

I wonder if the Fallout 3 PC will also sound like a guy (as they did in Oblivion) when they get hurt?

"Hraaagh!" - husky female Nord voice while launching an attack
Or at least it's suppose to sound female...

 

[Ranne]

heavy-narrative games disappoint in failing to exploit unique opportunities of games

Could you try to be less subjective just once? There is nothing about narration itself that is even remotely limiting to "unique opportunities" of gaming. While you may find lack of narration liberating, another gamer may see it as generic, disjointed, and inexpressive. There's probably nothing wrong with any of you. As I said, it's simply a matter of personal taste, not fact.

As I said, it somewhat works better for Mass Effect because the dialogue is simplified.
...
It's a broken dialogue system in a broken game. It fits.

I don't know how to explain it to you, Mass Effect really didn't dumb down or simplify any of its dialogues. It presented the essence of actual responses in reaction selection menus without sacrificing any of the considerable expressive content. If anything, it would be much easier to copy-paste existing conversation lines without summarizing them first. However, doing so would not be even remotely as practical or aesthetically pleasing as it is now.

If you can't realize that this approach is in any way - probably even more so - as complex as the one used by Fallout, that it is not broken and dumbed down but simply different, then forgive me if I choose not to continue this discussion after your undoubtedly inevitable response. I don't enjoy pointless arguing for the sake of arguing nearly as much as some do.

 

[doomestic]

meaning your character could easily say something you would not expect.

Yes that annoyed the shit out of me in ME. God what happened to those days when people bought Planescape Torment just to enjoy reading the bloody dialogue... it was not a 100 years ago, that was just at the end of the last decade...

 

[Brother None]

Could you try to be less subjective just once?

No?

You use "subjective" as if it's some 11 o'clock firealarm word that should have us all scrambling for the hills. Of course I'm being subjective, we're discussing opinions on video games.

There is nothing about narration itself that is even remotely limiting to "unique opportunities" of gaming.

Indeed. But we're not talking about narrative, we're talking about linear narrative.

There's probably nothing wrong with any of you. As I said, it's simply a matter of personal taste, not fact.

And I didn't acknowledge that, or say explicitly that I have no problem with that?

I don't know how to explain it to you, Mass Effect really didn't dumb down or simplify any of its dialogues.

Compared to what? Other BioWare games? Yes, correct, Mass Effect's dialogue is filled with linear fake choices just like, I dunno, Jade Empire. Structurally, there's nothing that separates ME from other BioWare games.

And I made that point a few posts back already. BioWare's dialogue has been structurally dumbed down compared to other RPGs for some time now, offering very little real choices to the player. The Mass Effect dialogue system fits that to a T, and indeed that does not mean the system is dumbed down, but it is a system that fits a dumbed down structure.

If anything, it would be much easier to copy-paste existing conversation lines without summarizing them first. However, doing so would not be even remotely as practical or aesthetically pleasing as it is now.

I don't see how it would be any less practical other than it taking up more room. And if you find several lines of text aesthetically displeasing, I'd call that, heh, a subjective opinion.

However, I'm not talking ease-of-use, I'm talking end-user practical considerations. If you're going to offer dialogue that is complex in structure, then a keyword/phrase based will not be adequate to relay to the player what exactly his character is going to say - and will end up frustrating the player as dialogue messes up because the choice he made ends up not being the choice he's trying to make.

That's a developing no-no, the end purpose of interfaces is to relay information to the player as accurately as possible, with the ease of the interface being secondary to its accuracy. Keyword/phrase-based dialogue interfaces lack accuracy in favour of ease-of-use and as I said, I don't find it a huge problem with Mass Effect, but I imagine it would be frustrating in any non-BioWare RPG.

If you can't realize that this approach is in any way - probably even more so - as complex as the one used by Fallout, that it is not broken and dumbed down but simply different,

If I can't realize, that might just be because you have yet to make actual counter-arguments against points I made about this fitting linear dialogue or the problem of keyphrase-based dialogue in more complex dialogue trees.

then forgive me if I choose not to continue this discussion after your undoubtedly inevitable response. I don't enjoy pointless arguing for the sake of arguing nearly as much as some do.

Heh, that's funny, because I was just about to point out you've ignored my points where it was to your convenience and have more than once purposely misread what I said, ascribing opinions to me I never expressed. To me, it was starting to look like you were just out to score point.

Nice going with the "I'm leaving, and by the way I WIN!" though.

 

[Ranne]

Nice going with "I live here therefore I will bore you to death with my neverending replies" as well. You never answered any of my arguments without either ignoring the actual points or misrepresenting them altogether. I was talking about linear narrative (amongst other things) and I believe I did ask you about the so-called "functional differences" when I demonstrated that dialogue several posts ago. And practicality again? Tell you what, if you like to spend more time discussing the game with me, I suggest you reread the posts I already made. I mean, talk about reading comprehension problems...

Oh, by the way:

The end purpose of UI is to relay information not as accurately as possible, but as efficiently as possible. Show me a game that shows HP fractions. Absurd...

Subjectivity implies unjustified personal opinions. If that's how you argue, I really have nothing else to say to you. I'm leaving, and by the way, YOU WIN, by all means.

TLDR!
Oh-ho!
TLDR!
Ha-ha!

More like TFSDR, where "F" is what you may call a passionate word and "S" refers to the intellectual value of your post.

 

[Per]

I don't see any problem with giving a game 10/10 if you think it's really good. Giving a game 1000/1000 would be eyebrow-raising, but 10/10 should reasonably just means it's in the top 10% of gamey goodness (whatever that is). One or a few games in each issue of a magazine should be expected to get it.

 

[bonustime]

Pretty disappointed that your character isn't voiced. Not sure why I assumed it was going to be though

The thing is, in fallout you are supposed to play a role, of whatever you choose to be.

So when you can play dozens of different "personalities" (Say a diplomat or a brute), of either sex, and with multiple dialogue options.

Do you think having just two voices, male or female, can do that justice?

It works for mass effect, because the character is pre-defined, you have the option of male or female Shepard.

I don't think what voice someone has really has much bearing on who they are as a person, but that's just me.

 

[Oakraven]

Lots of the mainstream AAA media like the Mass Effect dialogue system, calling it "the next gen" of dialogue systems and thinking any game that doesn't use it is hopelessly traditional and out-dated.

Yes, they are that stupid.

they bascialy seem to have started playing games at around the time that Kameo: Elements of Power came out. Seriously. Otherwise they would have probably known about games like Siako-Nigaten(sp, Im probably not remembering the game tital correctly) from way back around the time of FF2 and its 3-4 sequals (that Ironicaly involved completly diferent members of the same family on oposite sides, aparently your playing the game would triger a fresh bloodfued to erupt between diferent family members in the next episode!) that defacto used the same system because their was no way that half of the text would fit on the screen if it was the only option.

 

[Artisticspaz]

+ A genuinely compelling story that you want to follow.

I hate when reviewers tell me such things about the story because I am the one to judge whether game, book or movie contain good story and why the story is good. And when it is repeated again and again I start to suspect that something is very very wrong.

You know what, Damn those reviewers, trying to give their opinion on something is just nonsense. i mean what do they think their job is. also how dare they like something you don't for that matter, i mean ur special

+ Massive, rich world that you'll explore for a loooong time.

This song became old a long time ago.
I prefer smaller world, less rich world, closed world even, but with an atmosphere, not an effects of someone's "copy-paste" fest..

Yeah, y'know fallout 1 should dump that huge world,take out all their neat quests and just have it's nice atmosphere, because atmosphere is the only important element in games and restraunts!

+ Intense, challenging combat

Yeah, right. With unskippable, boring and simply ugly slo-mo after every aimed shot in game. I just can't wait....

I like how you read through what the guy said to see his actual meaning,"WATCHING VATS IS BEAUTIFUL AND SHOULD BE THE NEW STANDARD FOR SLO-MO"...good catch there...i missed it entirely

? Can someone make a real-life Pip-Boy? That'd kick some iPhone ass.

WTF?.

Yeah those oxm guys like using their ? symbols to put in random thoughts they have. However because you've read more of their reviews than just this little slice that they put in an article, you already knew that...

I noticed that nowadays so many reviewers/journalists try to advertise a game in a way that definitely would discourage me from buying. And their writting often indicate that games have no flaws at all which is simply impossible.

....if their writing indicates no flaws, then wouldn't that contradict the sentence before; OH NOEZ U'VE CREATED A TIME PARADOX !

course another explanation is that you just happen to be that picky

 

[aenemic]

meaning your character could easily say something you would not expect.

Yes that annoyed the shit out of me in ME. God what happened to those days when people bought Planescape Torment just to enjoy reading the bloody dialogue... it was not a 100 years ago, that was just at the end of the last decade...

um, those people still play Planescape Torment just to enjoy the dialogue maybe? ME isn't about reading huge chunks of text with all kinds of philosophical value. just as much as a racing game isn't about fishing.

 

[PaladinHeart]

...
Choice: "What's the problem?"
Voice: "Are there laws being broken here?"

If you just say "Are there laws being broken here?" then you could interpret that as being inquisitive and wanting more information, when what the character is actually saying, is that there are likely no laws being broken. Both statements can be interpreted as saying, "So? I don't see a problem here." which is what I get from it. Am I wrong?

Now, the big difference between Bioware's dialog and what you might commonly find in Fallout, is Bioware's tends to mostly be there just for good/evil/information choices. Fallout's dialog tends to be there for good/evil/lesser good / lesser evil / information loop, and so on.

That's not to say that Fallout didn't have its fair share of pointless dialogues. Look at the chats you could have with the Overseer. Game changing, weren't they? Whine all you want. You're not getting out of doing the main storyline. Dialog with the overseer is pointless unless you just want more info or want to say something funny. A good example of how Bioware's dialog usually goes.

However, there are certain points in Bioware's games where you will have an effect on the outcome, like when you're attempting to bring Bastilla back over from the dark side. I've heard there are two ways. One is by telling her you love her (male option only) and the other is by convincing her. I'm not even sure that works, so if you're a female character then Bastilla is just out of luck.. (unless you're evil, of course).

Of course, this still basically boils down to good/evil/info. Fallout had a lot of these as well. It's not a perfect system, but it works for what it's intended for.

I keep trying to recall a situation in Fallout where there were actually multiple choices that mattered. I can't recall so good though. Maybe when talking to Lou?
A. Say no and get hit. (eventually going to jail)
B. Give up location of V-13.
C. Trick him into trying to hit you and start combat. (system abuse FTW)

Sure there's a lot of info to be garnered there, options for laughs, etc.. but it still boils down to Good/Evil/CHEAT. Cheating was never really an intended option here, in my opinion.

Maybe someone else can better remember a Fallout dialog that had more than two or three possible outcomes?

Also, what kinda game IS Mass Effect anyway? The only videos I see are either dialogue extravaganzas or cutscenes galore. Is it an RPG? A FPS with dialogue options? A space combat game? (pew pew!) I wasn't even aware it was a Bioware game until this thread. I thought it was a FPS like Halo or something.

 

[fedaykin]

In this post-Mass Effect era, it's disappointing not to hear yourself talk and to have to pick your dialogue options from big blos of text.

Big blobs of text. My god.

Apparently the programmers weren't skilled enough to have the character read the lines when the cursor is hovering over a choice. Ironic, though, that even though they point out ME's dialogue as a better system, in ME you never really knew what your character was going to say until you had already made the choice. The differences in register, subject matter and tone between the summarized options and actual results were often so significat that the player would feel surprised after having chosen an option and heard it spoken aloud. The segment pointed out by Ranne is a mild example. In other words, it was disappointing in ME not to hear yourself talk and to have to pick your dialogue options from inaccurate summaries of text. It appears ME's dialogue is not the breakthrough that it is made out to be. I'll try to dig out more examples if I can get my hands on a copy of ME again.

Other quibbles: NPC chatter often overlaps in a confusing tangle, the third-person view is more than a bit crap, and we were always bummed that in such an otherwise-detailed world, no one noticed the corpses of their friends who we'd just stealthily killed.

Yeah...all of those mistakes were already made in Oblivion. So much for learning.

 

[Lingwei]

You know what, Damn those reviewers, trying to give their opinion on something is just nonsense. i mean what do they think their job is. also how dare they like something you don't for that matter, i mean {I'm trying to say your, you are, or you're, but I'm likely too stupid to know which to use.} special

Try reading what the 'journo' said again:

A genuinely compelling story that you want to follow.

Get it? He isn't giving us his opinions, he is telling us what our opinions will be. How does he know whether we will want to follow that story or not?

Yeah, y'know fallout 1 should dump that huge world,take out all their neat quests and just have it's nice atmosphere, because atmosphere is the only important element in games and restraunts!

Great way to misrepresent his post. Seelix was obviously complaining about how the game world is both overpopulated for a wasteland and lacking the atmosphere of a Fallout game. Garden gnomes and choo-choo guns anyone?

I like how you read through what the guy said to see his actual meaning,"WATCHING VATS IS BEAUTIFUL AND SHOULD BE THE NEW STANDARD FOR SLO-MO"...good catch there...i missed it entirely

Damn you are a natural at misrepresenting stuff. Seelix was not saying that the 'journo' was describing VATS as a work of art but was complaining about how he listed the combat as intense and challenging while failing to mention that be forced to watch VATS over and over for every single aimed shot will eventually get extremely tiring.

Yeah those oxm guys like using their ? symbols to put in random thoughts they have. However because you've read more of their reviews than just this little slice that they put in an article, you already knew that...

Why on earth would anyone with half a brain want to read more of OXM than they need to? This is the same magazine that described Halo 3 as "the best Xbox360 game ever".

....if their writing indicates no flaws, then wouldn't that contradict the sentence before; OH NOEZ U'VE CREATED A TIME PARADOX !

course another explanation is that you just happen to be that picky

Or perhaps he doesn't like 'journos' slobbering all over titles for pages and pages on end and then attaching a couple of minor quibbles so unimportant they sound like afterthoughts (and in this case one of his 'complaints' was actually a positive - post-Mass Effect era indeed). When you are cynical about something hearing people praise it to the heavens in only more likely to make you not purchase it. Wakaru ka?

 

[Artisticspaz]

Hah. I hope you're joking. Mass Effect simplified dialogue changes back to keywords, exactly the same way Oblivion did, where all-important context sensitivities were lost, meaning your character could easily say something you would not expect.

Imagine you're in the middle of talking to Gizmo and the options are:
- Done deal.
- Why?
- Coat pocket.

Doesn't really indicate what you're actually going to say, no?.

well if they wrote it like a retard yes, but i think that's way to much of a hyperbole, woulda looked more like:

-It's a done deal
-Why do you want him dead
-Could you say that louder

I mean nitpicking that you couldn't see the whole sentence is kinda low, especially when it did a good job of giving you the basic idea of how you would respond.

Not to mention Mass Effect's dialogue suffers that age-old BioWare curse of being completely pointless, with most dialogue choices being fake choices that lead to exactly the same outcome.
.

yeah i agree with you on the not mattering part, that kinda bugged me too, though there were conversations here and there that you couldn't just redo

If Mass Effect is the shining beacon of where RPG dialogue should go, we might as well give up on the genre here and now. It did the cinematic interaction, voice acting and face modelling better than anything else, but system-wise, ME dialogue was broken.
.

Well hey think of what would happen should they fix that system...dang that would be cool. i mean if more games could get the parts ME did well right i'd be happy but they don't. Valve comes close but unfortunately your character cant talk, just listens

 

[Artisticspaz]

Try reading what the 'journo' said again:

I did....and he told you his opinion

Get it? He isn't giving us his opinions, he is telling us what our opinions will be. How does he know whether we will want to follow that story or not?.

Again his opinion, see being a reviewer one would assume that he wouldn't have to state I THINK infront of everything. Hell maybe he thinks it's really good, so good in fact others will like it too so he writes it down

Great way to misrepresent his post. Seelix was obviously complaining about how the game world is both overpopulated for a wasteland and lacking the atmosphere of a Fallout game. Garden gnomes and choo-choo guns anyone?

well make-shift guns don't sound too far-fetch'd in a fallout setting...
And, "obviously", more like he was saying that a good atmosphere means more than a rich n' massive world you'd love to explore....
If thats what he meant he should have said so, especially since he was replying to a quote in what "Obviously"seems to be like he disagrees

Damn you are a natural at misrepresenting stuff. Seelix was not saying that the 'journo' was describing VATS as a work of art but was complaining about how he listed the combat as intense and challenging while failing to mention that be forced to watch VATS over and over for every single aimed shot will eventually get extremely tiring.

Considering you had to watch yours, your teammate's and your enemy's turns and couldn't skip in FO1/2, i'd say thats totally fallouty

Considering that it being boring/not boring is all up to opinion,which it's his job to give his, maybe he likes it? This isn;t even the full review anyways so why assume that he doesn't mention it in there?

Why on earth would anyone with half a brain want to read more of OXM than they need to? This is the same magazine that described Halo 3 as "the best Xbox360 game ever".

And it's a crime for them to think so why? Considering anyone with half a brain might also research before they make their argument, who knows really?
Curses they have an opinion that disagrees with you linqwei, i aplogize for them.

I mean i don't agree that halo 3 is or is even close, but i don't think that it's wrong for them to consider it is considering that it's pretty fun in modes like Grifball/infection and other custom modes like that

Or perhaps he doesn't like 'journos' slobbering all over titles for pages and pages on end and then attaching a couple of minor quibbles so unimportant they sound like afterthoughts (and in this case one of his 'complaints' was actually a positive - post-Mass Effect era indeed). When you are cynical about something hearing people praise it to the heavens in only more likely to make you not purchase it. Wakaru ka?

Have you ever considered how you might sound when you give your opinion on a game you thought was fun, it's just as easy to overlook flaws in a game you like as it is to find them in one your bent on hating.

wakari masen , lingwei daikirai des , WATASHI WA NINGEN!

 

[Iozeph]

More like TFSDR, where "F" is what you may call a passionate word and "S" refers to the intellectual value of your post.

Oh grow a spine, and just say "stupid", you big baby. Go ahead... S T U P I D. There, now you try it. It's just a word- won't kill anybody. Instead of hiding behind innuendo like a smug, self-righteous, prat. If you think the things I have to say about fallout 3 or OXM, or anything else under the sun, is stupid, then, by all means...

Say so plainly.

And then give reasons, instead of saying something banal, inflammatory, and stupid, which infers, "Blah di blah di blah... I didn't really bother reading because it's stupid, but I'll comment anyway hur hur..." without actually saying so, because you don't have the stomach to do it. Stop with the charade of, "I'm above it all." Because really. You aren't. You're just as egotistical as anybody who posts on a message board(myself included) desiring to air their opinions or to debate those of others. Your desire to have the last word in your last post shows how "above it all" you really are.

If you can't be bothered to read something, or don't want to- ignore it- and then don't comment. Simple as that.

Sure, I have strong opinions about gaming, gaming "journalism", and the folks at Bethesda, and I don't go trying to hide them. From time to time, I use profanity if it suits me. It's just words. Read between them if it's going to kill you.

I feel outlets like OXM(particularly in this latest review), G4, Gamespot, IGN, EGM, PC Gamer, and GamePro etc.(to name a few) have behaved like quislings over the last 8-10 years. They don't ask the hard questions. Their previews/reviews are mainly fluff pieces, thinly disguised commercials done in hopes of getting in good with, or/maintaining a symbiotic relationship with, lazy gaming studios.

Instead of asking those hard questions, and keeping those development houses honest(you know...journalism), they bend over and hand out 8+ ratings to games left and right as if they're going out of style.

Why? Because they'd rather pander, and not be blacklisted from "special events", free preview copies, or the "swag" doled out by the spoiled, pampered, crybabies in the gaming industry. They're afraid they might be rendered irrelevant if they can't cover each year's big new releases. They've developed this herd mentality where they only bash, or really critique, a game if they see everyone else(or at least one other "major" magazine or site) has already done so.

Otherwise they toe the line and hand out those 8s, 9s, 9.5s, 10/10s, and ugh.. 10/11s- and any voice/publication/or website that dares to disagree, gets labeled as, bitter, radical, stupid, unobjective(I love that one), or nerd raging neckbeards.

God forbid anyone call a spade a spade these days.

It should be gaming studios seeking, striving for, validation from the players and the press, not the other way around.

 

[Tigranes]

Man.

Isn't the key point that:

-> After Mass Effect, many journalists are actively leading the way in insisting that ME's dialogue system is an 'evolution' from the now-obsolete past, and that there is absolutely no good reason whatsoever not to use this new system that is better in every way.
-> This, obviously, is bollocks, because they are simply two systems driven by different logics with different advantages and disadvantages, the values of which depend on the vision of that specific game and your specific opinion.

 

[aronsearle]

What the hell, when was the title renamed 10/11.

So daft.

 

[Per]

English, motherfuckers.

 

[Tagaziel]

emotherfucker

Fixed.