Fallout 3 - pray to god it will be intact

My take on black Isles: fallout 1 and 2
Correct me if im wrong, but didn't one of the main developers or "ex troika maybe?" behind fallout say that his idea behind fallout was how different community's react to each other under streneous situations. In addition, how the protagonist can change the the world around him by influencing these groups, and the consquences that arise from such actions.

Using that idea as a basis, it formed all the concepts of freedom, quests and atmosphere that makes fallout.. well fallout?

On top of this basis, came the S.P.E.C.I.A.L system, the isometic gameworld, the guns, the bloodshed and the grittyness of a post apocolyptic stage (feargus maybe?).

In my mind, its the combination of all these elements that can only bring about a genuine fallout game. Anything else is biased towards one aspect of fallout or the other.

My take on bethesda's: Fallout 3
From my experience with Bethesda games, Bethesda seem to have a core group of people who are not story tellers. They are programmers/business people who take a programming concept and try and wrap a rpg story/element around it.

For example daggerfall, this game had 10000 locations, all 'randomly generated' with thousands of apparent 'randomly generated' quests. The game emphasised the mundane aspects of real life and presented it to you as gameplay. Unfortunately traveling for hours on end on a digitized horse is not fun; going through a randomly generated dungeon that does not have any premise or story and is absolute hell to navigate because the very nature of 'randomly generated' scenarios is creating large spider web like dungeons using the same tileset and same landmarks, ahem.. is not fun.

Another example red guard, poor gameplay large sprawling world with empty houses and you guessed it, repeated elements throughout the entire gameworld with no story.

Morrowind. Again we have daggerfall like tendency's with 'randomly generated item x in random dungeon y'. The dungeons and seemingly 'different villages and community's' all shared (90 percent of the time) the same tileset, same old situation daggerfall with updated graphics, and to me some of the worst if not the worst 3d character models ive ever seen. All glued together with not a single iota of atmosphere or charm.

Oblivion. Ah yes oblivion, numerous 'a.i' supposedly adding incredible 'life' to the game world. Numerous locations, dungeons (all hand crafted, heh so were morrowinds apparently and 90% shared the same tileset and landmarks). A fantastic story, which involves you running around fetching x and y, riding on your digital horse for hours on end sprawling through boring forests, while gathering herbs and nuts to make bread. I think not.

So in conclusion you could almost see exactly how fallout 3 is going to turn out with bethesda. The first idea that will come into there head is FPS, very little hand crafted quests, use oblivion engine, oh and tack on some kind of story, probably involving robots and mutants.

ADV
 
ADV said:
My take on black Isles: fallout 1 and 2

Correct me if im wrong, but didn't one of the main developers or "ex troika maybe?" behind fallout say that his idea behind fallout was how different community's react to each other under streneous situations. In addition, how the protagonist can change the the world around him by influencing these groups, and the consquences that arise from such actions.

Using that idea as a basis, it formed all the concepts of freedom, quests and atmosphere that makes fallout.. well fallout?
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The desolation, lost man in a lost world, and ironies from the past are also key points. Two of Fallout's greatest ironies were that the hope of the military and war scientists to create a viral immunity serum, is later found and turned into a genetic weapons factory that is used to threaten what remains of mankind (with an interesting approach because it was to save mankind as a whole but there was a flaw in The Master's plan to turn everyone into a super-mutant), and that which destroyed the world in the Great War is turned into the savior of the remaining people in the post-apocalyptic wasteland. Compared to that, anyone else who has touched Fallout hasn't even TRIED.

Nothing in the Fallout series has since come close in terms of writing. Then BIS takes a shit upon that to use comparatively the most unimaginative plot/story ever [Insert the numerous mistakes with Fo2 that led to the lead designer being quite clueless about the basic setting elements (FEV) years later when he mistakenly writes a canon "Bible" that was easily contradicted by anyone who played the first game with a brain - I'll even say that merely being literate should be sufficient - then lamely using those elements in a frankly uninspiring plot with wider holes than a cargo net], with an end boss that couldn't hold a candle to The Master, or that they drove it to the cliché of an end boss (while you don't even HAVE to talk to The Master to finish Fo1), and the game might have been regarded as a failure if it weren't for the groundwork laid out by others before they left and the thin varnish BIS managed to fool some people with.

Fallout fans can understand that Troika was trying to keep to classic CRPG design, which reflected in their work and in what little remained of the groundwork they laid down for Fo2, while Obsidian/BIS wanted to just chase licenses along with BioWare as some sort of excuse to do as little as work as possible to shovel out full price games. Again, that is Fear-Gut the jackass' own validation of his SLAM DUNK!s, given reason by the incessant recycling of lame BioWare/BIS/Obsidian plot devices. Wow...I wish *I* had amnesia to forgot every moment I have wasted on those shams.

At least they are able to make some superficial improvements, despite the mess of BioWare's craptacular engines from the Inbred, to the Aurora, to Odyssey to Hell. BioWare still has yet to significantly improve upon one of their engines, in a real technical level, before they inflict yet another half-baked engine with its elementary flaws upon a license.

On top of this basis, came the S.P.E.C.I.A.L system, the isometic gameworld, the guns, the bloodshed and the grittyness of a post apocolyptic stage (feargus maybe?).
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No, Fear-Gut was hell-bent on "cool minigun particle effexorz" along with his failure to understand P&P RPG gameplay, to the point of validating the removal or change of the essential parts, most of which you have listed, save for P&P RPG gameplay and the 50's science-fiction styles. No, wait, the point of P&P RPG gameplay was lost on Feargus as well.

Those in gaming media and those at Interplay who are clueless of Fallout's design are wont to use "gritty" so be careful. It was the favorite buzz-word to use in reference to the setting, and it's obvious that "gritty" meant "um...people die and there's a lot of swearing, okay?" to those left at Interplay who thought they had something relevant to say about Fallout.

This mentality unfortunately also affected J.E. and a few of the other impressionable "OMFG! Being Feargus'/Herve's whore is so COOL!" lackeys that apparently put more faith into the Interplay marketing department instead of real design, given the number of shitty SLAM DUNK!s and the reasoning behind their design, and the idiotic arguments for combat system hybriding (which still makes it RT+P, however ignorant of TB mechanics they wanted to prove themselves to be or how other developers want to coin phrases to re-label basic mechanics labels) or putting in a dual combat system (RT+TB, switchable), making it clear they had no clue about how impossible it really is to combine the designs of two combat systems with the same character, map, and level design.

So far, every one of Feargus' SLAM DUNK!s has turned into shit, or is obviously lacking. Asswind Dale, the expansion so shitty it had to have a downloadable addition, Asswind Dale II, the stagnation of TURD (TORN, which was billed as "everything Fallout fans have been waiting for since Fallout 2", when it was in actuality "everything the Fallout fans had been dreading since Fallout 2" given the crappy job of BIS' to make the first Fear-Gut SLAM DUNK! of Fallout 2), and then his bosom buddies at Reflexive come along to help him suck hind tit to make Lionheart into the ultimate nightmare for not only anyone who dislikes seeing a beloved franchise/stat system cheaply whored out, but for anyone who might have been expecting even a mildly uninspiring game. Or for anyone misfortunate enough to have recieved the turd for Christmas. And to believe that Feargus was trying to have it done before on the ShitTech engine, but without any of the comparatively decent writing behind it - TORN was meant to be stock fantasy and to develop an IP for Interplay besides the numerous false starts on Fallout 3. Then there's Kludge of The Old Recycling 2: The Shit Lords.

Sometimes, it really is a wonder how he can remain in the industry despite chumming up to BioWhore. He's like the Uwe Boll of licensed material and treats whatever he gets his hands on similarly, except that his failures are NOT intentional German income tax fraud, they are just a result of his aim to cut corners. Well, that is except for Planescape: Torment, and that is perhaps the only game Feargus has touched besides Fallout that had a real development cycle put behind it. Quite frankly, from what and how Feargus fucks up, I am inclined to believe that he was absent from much of PS:T's development, as he was obviously absent from much of Fallout's given his cluelessness and miserable handling of the development of the sequel.

Survey Says: BIS had jack shit to do with Fallout, in particular anything good.

In my mind, its the combination of all these elements that can only bring about a genuine fallout game. Anything else is biased towards one aspect of fallout or the other.
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Indeed, and as Bethesda has said in the past about Fallout's design they they are not going to adhere to Fallout's design. First, Fallout's design "that is not what we do best", and they also claimed, "we will do what we do best".

And so, until they decide to actually give some other info that clarifies otherwise, that is what will be taken as Bethesda's official word on the matter, because their development style seems to suggest these claims regardless of the license they are using. Hell, they haven't even been able to keep the claims they made about Morrowind, and Oblivion is still up in the air as to whether Bethesda will actually learn how to develop a CRPG or use a cookie-cutter stat system and try to build a game around it. AI can be cookie-cuttered and mass-applied like the speech strings in Daggerfall are used regionally; there is no replacement for real NPC design, as BioWare and Bethesda have both been fumbling around for years on how to cut those corners. Bethesda's already on the wrong track, as their RNG development styles leaves quite a bit to be desired and the number of solid NPCs in their games can be counted upon a woodshop teacher's remaining fingers. Especially when they are so fundamentally bad at mapmaking and area design, they have to use templates, randomize, and have dull, lifeless cities. Oh, and worry about apparently more important things, such as minotaur testicles in Oblivion.

So how the hell are we supposed to be happy about Bethesda holding the license if they have stated outright that they are not going to keep faithful to the Fallout design, something not only suicidal in gaming but also within the Fallout franchise itself? Fallout demands solid NPCs to anchor the story, and the best Bethesda has really done is make overscripted and wordy quest-givers that otherwise have zero for character interaction or personality.

Oh, more funny:

GS: What was your reaction to hearing that the Fallout license was picked up by Bethesda?

FU: Good Luck! That's probably somewhat horrible to say, but I think the team at Bethesda has their work cut out for them. This is mostly because there is almost nothing that they can do that will make the Fallout fans happy.
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Wrong, we just weren't happy what he was doing with his clueless and honestly quite pathetic trend-chasing development "ideas" in insisting on changing Fallout into something it's not, despite his shitty managing around Fallout 2. If there's anyone more clueless about Fallout than Bethesda, it's Feargus, and he did the half-ass, half-complete, and half-baked Boneyards in Fallout. He does the most uninspiring and almost wholly irrelevant area of Fallout (except for some background info and an NPC), does a shitty job of managing his first SLAM DUNK! of Fallout 2, and then thinks he can preach this bullshit as if it's OUR fault that we don't want another FOT, F:POS, or one of his trademarked corner-cuttings of a "SLAM DUNK!"?

Definitely signs of the Uwe Boll of the game development world. At least Uwe Boll has a purpose for sucking.

"Fallout fans are the worst fans there are."

Only to those who want to try and consider themselves great developers and offer something quite a bit less than what was hyped. For example, Lionheart, you overrated jackass. I regret I wasn't around to feed Feargus every one of his hyping, Fallout-dropping speeches about it that really makes it clear he doesn't know what Fallout is except for an associated stat system. And "cool minigun effects".
 
Unfortunately, that's too large to fit as my sig, congratulations to Roshambo for summing up all of our Fallout Fears in a humorous and informative way.
 
Fat Man said:
Tell me when you plan to strike... I will join you!
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We'll just brainwash the FPS-ers into thinking Fallout will be a good RPG. That'll piss 'em off and they can take stick it to "Fear-Gut."
 
I feel like a Catalyst.

*two thumbs up roshambo*




So now that troika has ... departed, what hope have we...
 
Well, it's good to have more intelligent people on the forums.

Wait, intelligent members on forums who aren't admins? That seems impossible!
 
Signeon said:
Wait, intelligent members on forums who aren't admins? That seems impossible!
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NMA is an amazing place. But it seems that the few morons here prefer to stay away from General Discussion (or get banned before they take interest in it).

Nice vitriolic summary Rosh.
 
Roshambo, we might agree more than you think. Still, I don´t personally like Super Mutants.
 
Well, I think I was just struck senseless and just gained a Point of Intelligence thanks to Roshambo's informative (tirade) speech.

Man, they really did whore out poor Fallout.... Man, I feel like a dime store slut just thinking about the n00b things I used to say in it's defence. Oh, well...
 
More on Bethesda, in response to a form letter news submission.

=================
Im a huge fan of this site.
I have been very frustrated that we have not heard anything from Bethesda about F3 sins 2004 so I went ahead and wrote them a letter.
This is the reply that I received.

----------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: game_question
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:49:56 -0500
From: "Press2005" <press2005@bethsoft.com> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

We are in the preliminary stages of development on Fallout 3. It will be a LONG time before we start talking specifically about our plans and what we're up to. We'll let folks know when we have some information to share on the game and its development.

Thanks for your interest in Fallout 3.
----------------------------------------------------

Im not sure if you all would be interested in this, but the reply gave me some hope!
Thanks!
-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx

===============
Wow, hope from a FORM LETTER!

GO YOU!

How about reading what the jackasses say in interviews and on web sites, instead? Like how Fallout is "not what [Bethesda] do[es] well" and that "[Bethesda] will do what [Bethesda] do[es] best". Or how about the "survival horror" aspects that makes it clear that Pete didn't care to check the article before it was printed for accuracy, or got it wrong as well and decided to blame the rag for the mistake of conveying the setting, phrased in such a way that it puts words into his mouth? Or how about where one Bethesda developer unwisely opens his mouth to complain about the combat of Fallout Tactics as if it were in the Fallout CRPG? Or how Todd Howard makes this rather idiotic claim?

But you have a FORM LETTER! The same one we've seen for months from anyone who has e-mailed Bethesda about any more info than their initial rather Stoogish PR antics, each Bethesda PR and developer speaking about Fallout more cluelessly than the previous. They first try to say that Fallout is like TES in some superficial items that Todd tries to list, but then goes to carelessly disregard important aspects of Fallout's design because he thinks the impact of the game was better than the construction of it, and so he thinks a trendy game that chases all "appealing" aspects from various games will be put together for one big ultimate trendy game! Now only if that worked in reality, when it has failed numerous times in the past.

Not too bright, Todd, as those who follow the game tend to like it for the classic P&P RPG gameplay taken to a computer, not because it has super-mutants and guns, or the rather moronic quantification of Fallout's setting as "gritty drug-and-prostitute-speckled irreverence". If we wanted to play in a crap combat system, we would play BioWare or TES.

Let's see...the first part, about drugs, only showed up in Fallout 2 as a plot element, as the rest were essentially like potions in TES. Prostitutes are also only found in select locations, and thusly can't quite be considered to be a major aspect of the setting, and would be like saying that TES is "daedra-speckled" despite their occasional and specific placed presences. And as we all know from the past from those who read Interplay information/press kits without their brain turned on, "gritty = shitty".

"I'd say the impact the original had in its day was about so much more then the angle you viewed it at, or how combat was executed"

Well, then that makes you just as clueless as Feargus, Todd.

Maybe even moreso.

Fallout 3 is already planned for console, because Bethesda's work on the "deep and intricate" Morrowind (holy shit...) made them familiar on how to turn their future games into shit for the sake of a console release. It's amusing that Oblivion is again being credited with everything Daggerfall and Morrowind were both hyped as - and failed to deliver. Like a "breathing world" that was successfully done in Ultima VII and Gothic, but Bethesda still haven't figured out how to RNG all aspects of their "development style", despite the reality that you can't expect quality from anything without proper work behind it. So let's see how well they RNG and drag and drop an AI script, just like how they have designed the overhyped speech, "unique" dungeon maps, and pretty much everything else about their own franchise TES fans are waiting for them to fix or unfuck from Morrowind/Daggerfall/Arena.

You know what is the most funny thing about this? When Bethesda starts to mention whoring out Fallout's concepts, the Fallout fans predictably don't like the idea, and then Bethesda then decides that no communication is better on top of their already questionable understanding. Damn, don't want us to shoot holes into the game's design like we did to FOT before it was released, causing the MicroForte developers to go back and actually do some work to make the game resemble Fallout aside from a few crappy connected maps. If it weren't for the forum gripes and a phone call with Chris Taylor where I said "that sounds particularly uninspiring with absolute crap for replay, and you expect Fallout fans to like it?", they would have stuck with that design and FOT would have been far less of a game. It wasn't a total disaster because they had the right idea to listen to the wishes of the intelligent fans that also had experience with game design, though it came a bit too late for the rest of the game's assets.

Then along comes Chucky and doesn't even try, doesn't listen to the fans, and instead turns a deaf ear to the fans while doing what he wanted with Fallout. Unfortunately, his own personal inability to design led that game to failure, as anyone could see.

Because of that, so as long as Bethesda is in denial, they can receive the same until they develop a clue, or develop another Fallout bastardization that has great pre-sales but poor longevity aside from the editor that Bethesda will likely include, so that anyone with a couple of hours can re-write most of their areas as an improvement. Like the mod that makes the starting town in Morrowind have some life. Too bad the same couldn't be done for the rest, and Bethesda is using AI scripting as their current crutch or excuse as to why they can't design NPCs worth a damn.

Unfortunately, there wouldn't be a way to mod out the likely crappy clickfest combat, likely made simple for the console kiddies as they did for TES. At that point, it will be hard to tell which combat will suck more, Morrowind's, F:POS, or "Lionheart 2"/Fallout 3.

How the hell does Todd expect to have the impact of the first, when he is going in the direction and receiving the reception of the spin-offs? By the way, he's the Chuck Cuevas of this project, so be afraid.
 
Just a little tangent...

Now that Troika has gone, is there a a chance that Bethesda would employ the services of ex-troika employees? For this **project.

save us *Tim! please!


*Tim Cain and Troika

**Fallout 3
 
zioburosky13 said:
So let me get this straight, Fallout 3 *could* be another FO:POS ? :?:
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No, Fallout 3 WILL be another F:POS if Bethesda keeps up their current self-delusional, self-sucking crap. Chuck called himself a Fallout fan and proved otherwise through the rather obvious holes in his statements. Bethesda has said the same, and not a one of them has proven that there may be a "Section8" in the bunch. Yet, with Section8's affinity/understanding/grasp of Fallout, he wasn't able to save Fallout Tactics from sucking by not resembling Fallout's setting at all.

We're still waiting for a Section8, someone from Bethesda with both a spine and a clue. Yeah, I'm not holding my breath, either, as it seems that most of the designers hold lesser positions in the company than the media and marketing departments. Hopefully, now with the industry growing a pair, and how 1UP absolutely disected F:POS, I think they will be the major media outlet we will nudge on to follow Fallout 3 in the same way, since they are obviously getting tired of Microsoft sucking themselves off and were also getting tired of Fallout being whored out. Bethesda doesn't have anything to really offer 1UP that Microsoft can't, so I think this route seems most beneficial.

FALLOUT 3 on console is a fucking bad idea :shock:
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I'm really starting to think that was their entire plan, and it seems that some of the Bethesda devs were just amazed by the quality of work on F:POS.

ADV said:
Just a little tangent...

Now that Troika has gone, is there a a chance that Bethesda would employ the services of ex-troika employees? For this **project.

save us *Tim! please!
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You mean AFTER they decided to not contact any of the previous core designers of Fallout in regards to professional authoring courtesy, and pulled a fucking Hasbro, then on top of that MrShiningHappyRetard makes a dig on Troika's financial situation like a common BioWhore lackey that thinks hype and no substance is cherished over people who try and deliver something that isn't simplistic recycled plot devices in a Lowest Common Denominator license whorings? This is the part that gets me, he does it to the faces of those who obviously don't think Bethesda is up to the task, since they have yet to make a real CRPG, and do this AFTER their PR fuck-ups in the past and really bogus statements in regards to Fallout.

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA!!!!

Sorry, but they showed their true colors with that one.
 
Oh my God. I never even DREAMED of that possibility (F3 on console) until this moment.

Thanks for adding to my FO anxieties, guys.

Ignorance is bliss when it comes to the steady destruction of a beloved franchise.
 
Lazarus Plus said:
Oh my God. I never even DREAMED of that possibility (F3 on console) until this moment.

Thanks for adding to my FO anxieties, guys.

Ignorance is bliss when it comes to the steady destruction of a beloved franchise.
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Especially when that ignorance is again on the part of a developer with their hands on Fallout.

Yeah, Bethesda expects us to be ignorant of the fact that Todd's and others' mental masturbations of Fallout being developed alongside the next TES game also qualifies as saying what they are intending with the title. Considering how they have axed their own combat system for something befitting the console trash, and are looking to do the same to Fallout, it isn't too hard to expect that Bethesda doesn't know shit for combat systems except for collision detection and an RNG for skill/damage amount - so we can in effect expect another F:POS. About the BEST depth they were able to do in Morrowind is make routines for weapon procs - after that, there really isn't much to the Morrowind combat engine that could be trumped by Daggerfall's. Yawnsville. Yet people expect them to be able to program the multiple layers of subroutines required for a complex sequenced TB combat system (although Fallout's, honestly, is a tad simple - which could be worked on to add depth towards JA2, a better form of Arcanum's, as in no RT compromising it, etc.), along with the effects of the associated perks? It just is too fucking funny, really.

Todd says he wants to go for the impact of the first Fallout, but if it isn't going to have the great combat system in lieu of something a bit more KoTOR or TES, then who the fuck does this clown think he's fooling? We saw how RT and how screwing around with a TB P&P RPG system works in an RT game - for both D&D with BioWare's mangling and inability to write subroutines worth a damn, and with Reflexive/BIS for mangling SPECIAL with Lionheart. And Interplay for mangling SPECIAL with F:POS. And MicroForte for mangling SPECIAL with Fallout Tactics.

And yet, the Bethesda developers kept saying this shit, and how they are going to do what they do best, and then clam on certain topics while posting stupidly on others. Then, they shut up when people didn't like the garbage they were saying, and laid the blame on the Fallout fans in delusional yet predictable Interplay/Chuck Cuevas/Fear-Gut fashion, then went into silence except to make the occasional stupid statement to irk Fallout fans.

To me, that doesn't look like a whole hell of a lot, especially in the ability to notice why other developers love the game to name-drop it and cheaply rip it off (BioWare), why the game attracted a following that is still growing, how game series start and thrive (and how Fallout hit the "media whored" stage by the second installment), among other matters that should be elementary to anyone around the industry for more than ten years and has authored/help author a game that you can follow the fans and what they desire from a sequel - it isn't staleness like The Magic Candle II (read the first paragraph of the review! Better graphics, streamlined, looks much better - plays like shit on a stick.) is to The Magic Candle, it isn't whoring out like Ultima 8/9. And we're being fed Interplay's song and dance again. Simply amazing.

Something tells me we're going to have to explain why super-mutants are in Fallout for Todd as we did for Antti. To me, that seems to be the ultimate insult, because Todd is supposedly a "lead designer".

"No, we're not saying anything." (Probably because you idiots have said too much already to try and foist shovelware onto the Fallout audience.)

Sorry, they might lie down and take it like a bitch in their own office for the almighty marketing department, but that doesn't mean that we have to take it the same way when these clowns pull this shit on us. Again, and from a new set of assholes.
 
Well... this post is somewhat relevant. So bare with me please.

A few hours ago I looked at the supposed 'making of' video for Elder scrolls IV oblivion. Our beloved Todd (Bethesda) was on screen describing 'deep' storylines and 'freeroaming' features. This is all well and good, but he ended the video with 'you guys at the chess club saying you wanna make video games, whos laughing now!'. I am sorry but anyone with that kind of maturity who's allowed to head a games development (eg fallout 3) both technically and creatively is only going to result in all our fears coming true.

I will now associate all Todd's ramblings with Matt Groenings version of the comic book salesman.


---- Fallout 3 R.I.P. ----
 
Oh dear... now I have to worry bout 'Fo3 = another FO:POS' might come true... Damn those game-developer..why is it so hard to make a GOOD sci-fi CRPG... :oops:
 
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