Fallout 3: Quests

[Brother None]

Following his good points of Fallout 3, Shamus Young analyses two quests: The Power of the Atom and Tenpenny Tower. He isn't very forgiving to the writing in either one, and also criticises the structure of the Tenpenny Tower quest (spoilers):<blockquote>I chose to defend the misguided people of Tenpenny and take out Roy, which was an evil act in the eyes of the game. The guy on the radio - the conscience of the game - even called me a “scumbag” and said I “butchered” ghouls. Apparently killing a man contemplating mass murder made me a… racist?

This isn’t just a badly written quest. This is reprehensible. According to the moral compass offered by the in-game karma system (and, one assumes, the game designers) being a rich bigot (where “rich” is simply a label the game hangs on characters without context, and “bigot” is a charge that may or may not be fair, based on how dangerous regular ghouls are to people) is worse than mass murder and theft. The people of Tenpenny weren’t oppressing Roy by taking anything from him. They were just refusing to do business with him. And since he’s clearly a bloodthirsty madman, they kind of have a point.

This is not the only quest that presumes to help us understand deep concepts like “racism is bad”. Elsewhere in the game is a den of very polite Vampires - humans that drink human blood to survive. They balk at being called “cannibals”. (Right, you’re not simple cannibals, you’re wasteful cannibals.) They seek “understanding”, from the player, despite the fact that their survival depends on a steady supply of victims to keep them alive. Once again the right/wrong karma arrow points sideways, and it’s wrong to kill them, but right to convince a nearby village to supply them with blood in exchange for being left alone. I guess it’s okay to hold a village hostage and enslave them if you’re very polite and claim to be misunderstood.</blockquote>

 

[Ausir]

Tenpenny Tower is still one of the best ones in the game. The Karma system is retarded, though.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Tenpenny Tower is still one of the best ones in the game.

heh. well that's certainly not saying much.

 

[Rev. Layle]

Tenpenny Tower is still one of the best ones in the game. The Karma system is retarded, though.

... and THAT makes me sad.


Just reading this article just kinda made me "wow, is it really that screwed up?" In actuality, perhaps no, but *certainly* MANY a missed opportunity.

I mostly agree with Shamus in this article. Maybe a bit overcritical in his analysis... the karma problems are SPOT ON, however.

 

[God is Dog backwards]

Fallout 3 may have problems but Tenpenny Tower is a quest that pretty much stands above most other quests offered in other RPGs these days. Especially some of the consequences.

yes, the karma system is stupid and should have been scrapped, but TT is a fine sidequest IMO.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I feel that more brains stands behind these articles than behind all of Fallout 3.

 

[Buxbaum666]

Funny thing is that you can get an extra amount of bad karma if [spoiler:d3eea0ccd8]you kill all Tenpenny residents and then let roy and his feral ghouls into the tower.[/spoiler:d3eea0ccd8]
But I had absolutely no problem getting back to Neutral and beyond.

 

[DocConrad]

Yeah, this guy is kind of an asshole. Tenpenny Towers was one of the very few quests in Fallout 3 that even approximated the moral ambiguity of the first Fallouts.

 

[Brother None]

I love the Tenpenny Tower quest, and have used it multiple times as a good example of a great "no right way to do it" quest, approximating Fallout 1/2's design

But Shamus' point is valid. The karma is fucked up.

 

[jamesmcm]

I love the Tenpenny Tower quest, and have used it multiple times as a good example of a great "no right way to do it" quest, approximating Fallout 1/2's design

Yeah, I think this shows perfectly Bethesda's dilemma - they really are damned i they do, damned if they don't. So they make a morally ambiguous quest and people slam it saying the game isn't clear but they then also criticize the other quests for being too shallow.

It seems some people just don't want to enjoy the game.

I hate the leveling enemies system though, it makes it too easy and removes a lot of the planning and challenge from, say, Morrowind where tackling the tougher enemies required thought. The Karma system sucks too - they should've ditched it and used a system where only witnessed actions count - like Oblivion.

 

[Brother None]

Yeah, I think this shows perfectly Bethesda's dilemma - they really are damned i they do, damned if they don't. So they make a morally ambiguous quest and people slam it saying the game isn't clear but they then also criticize the other quests for being too shallow.

What? That's not the problem at all, the problem isn't that it's morally ambiguous and thus has vague areas, that's fine, the problem is that the karma system is stupid, which it is. It's an illogical mix of "karmic" cycles based on whatever random kind of karmic judgement developers emplaced (killing raiders = good, enslaving raiders = bad), but it also impacts reputation in ways that are sometimes laughably stupid (I can't pick up Jericho, so I go into every house in Megaton and pick up shit. Nobody sees me, yet now Jericho wants to follow me 'coz I'm no longer goody two-shoes. Huh?)

It seems some people just don't want to enjoy the game.

Strike one. You've been spamming this "insight" everywhere, it's not a welcome attitude. If you want to engage in honest debate, welcome. If you want to insult people, get out.

 

[Ixyroth]

I blew up Megaton, did all the slaver quests including Bumble, killed pretty much every person (except the unkillable "friend") in Vault 101, and still ended up with positive Karma at the end. The only good things I did were rescuing Red (enslaving her afterwards) and helping to defend Big Town, as well as freeing Fawkes. I also did a few of the random supermutant rescues.

A couple of evil deeds later I was able to hit negative Karma again so I could see all the slides, totally destroying any replay value (not to say that I would replay it even if this were not the case, because I wouldn't).

 

[jamesmcm]

Yeah, I think this shows perfectly Bethesda's dilemma - they really are damned i they do, damned if they don't. So they make a morally ambiguous quest and people slam it saying the game isn't clear but they then also criticize the other quests for being too shallow.

What? That's not the problem at all, the problem isn't that it's morally ambiguous and thus has vague areas, that's fine, the problem is that the karma system is stupid, which it is. It's an illogical mix of "karmic" cycles based on whatever random kind of karmic judgement developers emplaced (killing raiders = good, enslaving raiders = bad), but it also impacts reputation in ways that are sometimes laughably stupid (I can't pick up Jericho, so I go into every house in Megaton and pick up shit. Nobody sees me, yet now Jericho wants to follow me 'coz I'm no longer goody two-shoes. Huh?)

It seems some people just don't want to enjoy the game.

Strike one. You've been spamming this "insight" everywhere, it's not a welcome attitude. If you want to engage in honest debate, welcome. If you want to insult people, get out.

Yeah, I hate the Karma system. I thought it was just going to be for tracking yourself with only observed acts having an effect on NPC's. WTF where they thinking?! It's worse than Oblivion! I assumed it was because it was like this in the first Fallouts.. is that right?

 

[Brother None]

I assumed it was because it was like this in the first Fallouts.. is that right?

No.

Fallout 1 used karma almost exclusively as a oblique "this is how good/evil you are". Bounty hunters would eventually come after you, but for the most part it had little gameplay impact.

Fallout 2 used karma the same way, and then added reputations for each location, with people responding only vaguely to your karma score but reputation being much more important. Of the 3 Fallouts, this is the best system.

 

[jamesmcm]

I assumed it was because it was like this in the first Fallouts.. is that right?

No.

Fallout 1 used karma almost exclusively as a oblique "this is how good/evil you are". Bounty hunters would eventually come after you, but for the most part it had little gameplay impact.

Fallout 2 used karma the same way, and then added reputations for each location, with people responding only vaguely to your karma score but reputation being much more important. Of the 3 Fallouts, this is the best system.

Hmm.. it's strange for them to change it then.. since Oblivion had a kind of reputation system.

How difficult would it be to mod in F2's system?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Yeah, this guy is kind of an asshole. Tenpenny Towers was one of the very few quests in Fallout 3 that even approximated the moral ambiguity of the first Fallouts.

No I dont think so. The karma system as BN said ruins it. And I dont like the structure of the quest to say it that way.

It is nice, like the replicated men or a arefu wanabe-vampire quest that you have "a few options" here. But considering Fallout and other RPGs its just the bare minimum one should expect in a RPG. THose quest are "ok". Not outstanding, but not really bad either.

And those quests are all solved in a 30min game time ... which I think is not that great as well. Simply in Baldurs Gate 1/2 a few quests could take you much longer to do them, frankly just cause you had not the right level to finish them yes, but still.

 

[JESUS]

I think what ruins the karma system is still what has already been pointed out, the fact that you can do evil or good things very fast and change your reputation easily.
The Barbie Theme house in Megaton with the butler robot gives you water that can be regiven to hobos for good karma, and stealing everything goes the otherway, later levels have the ears hunting system.
Your decisions in quests then, that affects your karma, become meaningless.

 

[TheFlyingBuddha]

The karma system really should have been invisible to the player, and tied more to the dialog trees. If you're helpful/sensitive when talking to people, karma up. If you're a dick/threaten to disembowel people, karma down. That way it would slowly accumulate over the course of the game, with prominent quest moments providing the only real ways to suddenly have a large change in karma, for whatever reason. In a quest like TT, dialog would help you elucidate why you felt doing a certain thing was right or wrong or whether you were being selfless or self-interested, and only actions which severely contradict your choices would have the karmic power to undo whatever you accumulated. Karmic consequences in an invisible system obviously need to be a bit more subtle. For example, Jericho should have always been open to traveling with the player, but perhaps with varying fees based on the player's karma.

 

[Ausir]

Fallout 1 used karma almost exclusively as a oblique "this is how good/evil you are". Bounty hunters would eventually come after you, but for the most part it had little gameplay impact.

Fallout 2 used karma the same way, and then added reputations for each location, with people responding only vaguely to your karma score but reputation being much more important. Of the 3 Fallouts, this is the best system.

Actually, FO1 and 2's "Karma" was meant to be a measure of general reputation, not objective good or evil. Sure, it didn't entirely work as planned because in case of killing it didn't take into consideration whether anyone saw you or not, but it definitely did not give you any penalties if you were not seen picking locks or stealing.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well I cant say that I liked fallout 1/2s karma system. But It is definetly broken in Fallout 3.