Fallout 3: Quests

[Roflcore]

I like the idea that characters can lie to the player character

problem is: its not the characters that lies, but bethesda. If you suspect Roy to start killing everybody you can stand guard in order to provide security. Nothing happens. You leave and Tenpenny magically dies. You can now do that again and see everybody else getting killed, or you can shoot Roy and gain negative Karma and ruining the whole non violent solution.

Its not a lie if you can not uncover it. At least not until its to late. Its a devs decission to cheat you and you can not do a thing about the outcome, even if you suspect it. If you could find out Roy is lying, stop him or have any influence on his actions, you migt call it a character lie. But right now its just poor gamedesign, a developer laughing at you because he fooled you (which is really idiotic because fooly somebody as the author of a story is the easiest thing in the world)

 

[Crni Vuk]

The root of the problem here is that the reader, or player, should never be lied to by an author, and shouldn't have to become accustomed to being lied to either. And if the author decides to do it anyway- it's still going to be a damned tough(one could argue almost impossible) sell. If this happens, the rest of the story, and the author, lose all credibility. All snide remarks about Bethesda and Howard aside, it's why lying to the reader/player is always a no-no.

There's a difference between an author lying to a reader and a character lying to a character. I don't see why NPCs shouldn't lie to the PC. Would be nice if you could detect that he's lying with a skill check, though.

The thing is just that "lieng" is against Bethesdas princibples in making a story. Since some of the makers from Morrowind left the company it was decided "never ever lie to the player and never steal something from him". This is obviously extermly limint not only if you want to make a good story but as well if you want to make a good RPG experience. It could be a good benefit of extremly high spech/charimsa combination cause you would detect people when they are lieing.

Particularly in a post-apoc world like Fallout I think lieing would be routine.

I can not even see how it is possible to make ANY kind of good story without NPCs lieing to the player to say that ...

 

[Iozeph]

Because Roy is already personally pissed with the Tenpenny fellows, and rather than risk a long trek across the Wasteland or simply make the best of what he has in that sewer while the Tenpenny guys live it up next door, he's always going to be strongly inclined to push on with his plan. Look at his personality, a mix of righteousness, entitlement, condescension and hatred. It would be silly if you, some random stranger human, cuold easily persuade him to just drop his plan or go off to Underworld.

You look at the *way* he talks and *how* he treats you, and no, it's very clear that non-violence is an option of last resort for Roy. He is very clearly going to have a lot of fun murdering Tenpenny & co and teaching them a bloody lesson.

Yes, I agree, it would be silly for your character to accomplish 99% of the things he/she does in the course of the game(solo even!). However, we're expected to suspend disbelief and overlook the contrived nature of the writing in fallout 3 that allows for you to even talk to such broad strokes characters as Roy and his cohorts.

Roy is personally pissed. A good deal of people are, but apparently he's not so pissed off that he doesn't:

1) Lash out and shoot your character the first time you try to speak to him- as he's leaving the front gate of the tower(when logically he would have been angriest- and why not? The people in the tower don't know your character from adam anyway- just another skag from the wastes. You wouldn't be missed. -And Gustavo won't open that gate for just anyone.)

-or-

2) Shoot you when you go to the sewers to try to talk to him. Sure you got past the "dumber" more pliable members of his cadre, but at heart you're just another lying smoothskin, right? BAM! Now where were we? Right... invading the tower.

Roy has good reasons to be angry, and to have some hatred stored up as well. That doesn't make him, or Michael, murderers. It does make me wonder if Bethesda shouldn't have axed this quest line to begin with because some folk there still don't get it.

Righteousness I can well understand. Roy, and other ghouls, have been persecuted, the majority of their lives- after the change. They learn to deal with it and to live with that as best they can. Roy goes to the tower and asks to be let in- apparently this isn't the first time he's tried either. As was mentioned before, it's a before-time building full of squatters- and there is apperntly enough room for all. How many times do you take the righteous path before getting fed up?

As many times as it takes, right? But we're overlooking something here.

This isn't like the case of the civil disobedience of Gandhi and his followers. There are a good number of Ghouls, to be sure, but they aren't capable of breeding(some new ghouls form but if the "good" ending of the game holds true- not for long). Why should they run the risk of extinction, or extermination, to make a point to a bunch of bigots?

And I'm a bit confused as to why Roy is seen as condescending. All he and most Ghouls want is to be seen as equals. Now maybe Roy has some biases of his own after being discriminated against for so long, but he's willing to look past them and give people the benefit of the doubt- he allows you live, after all.

Where *I* get a bit pissed is the mention of entitlement? Entitlement usually implies that a person is assuming they deserve something, when they don't. So Ghouls don't deserve to be treated as equals? Why? Because they're ugly, because they smell a bit off, or because they talk funny? How dare they! Move along, folks. Nothing to see here... just another bunch of uppity ni... uhhh...err.. Ghouls, right?

The deal proposed to the Tower is for nothing other than equal treatment- pay for your room and board, and don't start trouble. That's not asking for the moon. Or is it?

It's a tired old saw, yes, but I don't see any irony in having Roy kill Tenpenny. As said before, they don't let you see anything. Perhaps if there were a bit more exposition, a chance to convince them both of the "err of their ways", shoot them both, or take one or the other's side, or simply stand witness before you're handed the death of Tenpenny with no recourse. Then, perhaps, the end of the quest would have been more powerful. But, even then, it still wouldn't be ironic- just senseless.

Irony is if you actually decided to kill Tenpenny on behalf of Mr.Crowley, because Tenpenny hired Crowley and the others for a suicide mission, and now, out of the blue, those chickens are coming home to roost.

But they aren't even trying here.

Tenpenny is your classic, stereotyped, Southern politician- brave with a gun in his hand, deeply bigoted, a coward at heart, violent if he can get away with it, but still a politician. Which is why, when you show him that the majority of the residents are fine with allowing Ghouls into the Tower, he goes along with the deal. As long as operations continue to run smoothly, he stays in power untill he dies- and by then he won't care if "the slaves burn the plantation down", so to speak. He has the power, he has the guns, and he's already got one foot in the grave. He has no heirs to pass this dubious legacy on to, so what does he have to lose? You'll never change him, but if allowed to, his brand of ideology will eventually erode and disappear well after he's gone. At least in that area of the wastes.

Roy killing Tenpenny is as stupid as it gets, and someone with as many years under his belt as Roy knows that. Additionally, GNR radio seems to know everything as it happens- and broadcasts it for all to hear. So why, then, would Roy set back the progress he and the other Ghouls have made in order to satisfy a stupid whim? Chances are better than average that if he plays his cards right- Roy will be leading the Humans and the Ghouls of the Tower once Tenpenny passes away.

In life, people say and propose a lot of things, in passion, that they regret once they have a chance to cool down or see things from a different perspective. And yes, I understand you can't fix everything. That point is first taken out of your hands and hamfistedly beaten into your head from the beginning of the game- when you are forced out of the vault and later when your father unnecessarily commits suicide and LATER when you are forced to commit suicide to turn on the bloody purifier. I get it.

Sure, I understand that the wastes can be a brutal place, chockablock with random and senseless acts of violence, tragedy, and stupidity. But isn't it enough that the majority of the game(and arguably its creators), and its setting, already stands as a testament to this maxim?

Should we do their work for them and posit that tragedy is what they were aiming for all along? Tragedy loses its power when you're already up to your neck in the nuked out shell of a once-powerful nation's former capital. It's just another straw on that camel's broken back, it doesn't really add anything.

With Tenpenny Tower, Bethesda goes to a place, better left unvisited, throws common sense to the wind, and lies unabashedly to the player so that they can effectively say, what- "See? SEE!?!?! Them damn dirty nigrahs ain't so special. They can turn on ya if ya give em' half a chance. That's why ya gotta watch em' close an keep em' in their place!"?

I understand what they thought they were reaching for there, but they failed. It doesn't come across as ironic, edgy, ground-breaking, or even timely social commentary. Just sad, out of touch,and not a little bit lame and cliche. And it is a tragedy of sorts, because they did do a much better job of exploring that dimension of the story with the "You Gotta Shoot Em' In The Head" quest.

So much for subtlety, though.

 

[Temoid]

You're seeing complexity where there is none. Roy is not a tragic hero and Allistair does not have an intricately layered personality. It's just a poorly written quest with arbitrarily created karma dispensers at different vague points and not enough logical choices.

 

[Tigranes]

That doesn't make him, or Michael, murderers

Shooting on sight, or at least, making Roy/Michael's dialogue a lot more hostile, indeed would have helped, making the player feel like he was walking on thin air.

Yes it does, in the setting. They are not suburban Americans who are angry at their neighbours and would settle with a good fist to the face. They live in a Wasteland, where killing is a common and acceptable form of dispute resolution / anger management. They are ghouls, and are tired of decades of humans attacking on sight, not knowing crap about them, etc, etc. Why the heck do you think their plan or their attitude is excessive?

Why should they run the risk of extinction, or extermination, to make a point to a bunch of bigots?

What? What 'extinction'? In Bethesdaland, there are thousands of ghouls, readily available in a metro near you. And it's not just about "making a point", you make it sound like they just want to do a Scooby Doo and teach 'em a lesson. It's about getting Tenpenny, that nice place, as well as getting a moral and real victory over the humans. The ghouls taking control of Tenpenny should, after all, have a major impact, perhaps developing into a more prominent Underworld.

Entitlement usually implies that a person is assuming they deserve something, when they don't.

No, "entitlement" means having the right to something. Having a 'sense of entitlement' means a person believing he/she deserves something, regardless of whether they do or not.

Roy killing Tenpenny is as stupid as it gets, and someone with as many years under his belt as Roy knows that. Additionally, GNR radio seems to know everything as it happens- and broadcasts it for all to hear.

You haven't actually explained why it's so stupid. The manner in which the game goes about it is silly (hey thanks Oblivionscript autokill), but dude, has Roy ever seen Tenpenny or talked to him, to know all that stuff you're talking about (never mind that Tenpenny's frivolous cruelty and 'wasteland safari' would offend him if he did)? To Roy, Tenpenny is that bastard who won't let any ghouls in, and the guards are just as bad.

and GNR... sure, but I'm pretty sure in Bethesdaland nobody except you actually acts as if that thing exists. GNR just doesn't make sense, flat, and is a game mechanic.

Gah, I have to go. The point is, you are extrapolating then imagining a Roy, a Tenpenny, and a ghoul-human situation that is vastly different to what is actually represented in the game.

 

[Iozeph]

No, Roy and Michael aren't suburban Americans. In the context of Human/Ghoul relations within Fallout 3, there wouldn't be a fist fight- there'd be a lynching. Yes, it's a wasteland- with a frontier mentality loosely modeled on that of the stereotypical frontier American South/Southwest.

And just as it is was acceptable to settle conflicts at the point of a gun- it was also acceptable for the families of your victims to round up a posse and shoot or hang you if they could catch you.

At the point where Fallout 3 takes place, Ghouls don't make waves. They lay low and try to avoid notice and usually end up as slaves, second class citizens like Gob from Megaton, or posing as man Fridays like Argyle was forced to do in human settled areas during his travels with Herbert Dashwood.

I explained why Roy killing Tenpenny was stupid- because it runs counter to gaining acceptance for Ghouls. Anyone else could have killed Tenpenny, provided they weren't a Ghoul, and while it would have been remarked upon, it would have ultimately been put down to the general lawlessness of the wastes, then forgotten.

Have it done by someone who is already a member of a group that is targeted for discrimination/persecution(Ghouls) and you have a lightning rod for any would be haters(and otherwise fence sitters) to rally around. Much the same way that there was(and in some places still is) a double standard for white on white and black on white crime in the United States.

Sure, Killing Tenpenny, in the short term, might offer Roy a small measure of satisfaction, but in the long term the damage it will do to Ghouls in places like Megaton, or those daring enough to stay outside the confines of Underworld, will be devastating. Victories like that are Pyrrhic at best.

What's more, you've already got enough people in the wasteland who fear, or flat out hate Ghouls, but are willing to live and let live when it comes to Underworld. But terrorize people enough to whip them into a killing mob and, moral victory or not, you could very well have a group like the Outcasts, or the "normal" Brotherhood of Steel, - heck even the Enclave, decide one Ghoul murderer is one too many. And then use Tenpenny as a pretext to go down into Underworld with some Powered Armour, a few flamethrowers, and settle the "problem" for good.

About entitlement- I know the meaning, but I'm not talking about the strict definition- I'm talking about what is considered to be implied by the modern usage of the word. Especially in this context. I'd like to think you know that.

But back to Tenpenny. Yes, Roy hasn't seen or talked to Tenpenny and yes, Tenpenny and the guards are the people who said no and barred them entrance. However, by the same token, they are the same people who end up allowing him and the other Ghouls to move in and stay after you mediated for them. That could go either way, but we'll never really know what Roy's "disagreement" was or why because, as readers/players, it was withheld from us.

I'm sure we won't ever see completely eye to eye on this but, for the reasons I have mentioned, before and now, I stand by my impressions that Tenpenny Tower isn't the great example of fallout-style quest making that many here believe it to be.

 

[mountaingoat]

@ Iozeph

Have you ever considered the case that maybe the game wants Roy to have a split/schizophrenic personality,and he is only using you, presenting his good face, just to gain access to Tenpenny no matter the way.
After the settle, Roy for his own reasons (the game never explains) butchers the non- ghoul residents,all of them, not only the guards but even the no combat-capable humans, and that says something, i suppose.
My main problem with the quest is; although you can have a conversation with Roy afterwards, the dialogue lines that may give an explanation for the motive behind his actions is missing.
The quest ends prematurely, making you feel like cheated.
If Roy was inaccessible (e.g. locked in Alistair's private quarters) then i might consider the way the quest ends logical.
You can see Roy, you can talk to him,but you can't ask him for the reason why.
It makes no sense to me.

 

[Nothingman74]

I think Tenpenny towers aimed for a plot twist but it doesn't fit in the game mechanics when you try to combine it with karma penalties. I thought it was a welcome change of surprise when my first attempt to be the good guy in Megaton (and inform Simms about the attempt to hire me for blowing up his town) was in vain and he was killed because of it. The second time around (Roys betrayal) I felt disappointed and cheated.

I agree that too many quest "ends" the NPC:s and transform them into robots repeating the same lines over and over again. I think that is the major malfunction with the whole game experience. The characters are like locations in this game - once explored they are depleted and without any significance at all.

 

[Rahungry]

There has to be a few creative moders out there that can repair the damage Bethesda has done. I feel the game can be saved.
Just needs a lot of work. If i had the free time I would get involved in modding non-stop. So yes this game needs alot of work,

 

[Iozeph]

@ Iozeph

Have you ever considered the case that maybe the game wants Roy to have a split/schizophrenic personality,and he is only using you, presenting his good face, just to gain access to Tenpenny no matter the way.
After the settle, Roy for his own reasons (the game never explains) butchers the non- ghoul residents,all of them, not only the guards but even the no combat-capable humans, and that says something, i suppose.
My main problem with the quest is; although you can have a conversation with Roy afterwards, the dialogue lines that may give an explanation for the motive behind his actions is missing.
The quest ends prematurely, making you feel like cheated.
If Roy was inaccessible (e.g. locked in Alistair's private quarters) then i might consider the way the quest ends logical.
You can see Roy, you can talk to him,but you can't ask him for the reason why.
It makes no sense to me.

But it's something that, like you said, the game never explains sufficiently. I thought about the dissociative personality -schizophrenia angle, but that would mean that Michael Masters, and Bessie Lynn would have had to witness that side of Roy at some point- not to mention the other Ghouls "off-camera" that ended up joining them at Tenpenny.

Sure, there's a slim chance that Roy could hide that side of himself for that long, assuming his other half allowed it, but it's very slim. Schizophrenia/bipolar isn't a condition where its sufferers can reliably remain in control- medication can help, but it doesn't prevent every episode. Even less is known about dissociative personality disorder- some insist the condition doesn't even exist, but that's a debate for another day.

Either way, it would only take a one or two episodes to erode any chance Roy would have of leading anything/anybody- Ghouls may be ugly, and stinky, by normal standards, but it doesn't mean they don't want to live. It doesn't mean they don't have consciences or a sense of enlightened self-interest. But you're never given any sign that they might have tried to restrain Roy or stop him from killing the other human residents after he killed Tenpenny.

If you wanted to follow that line of deduction further, then you could even posit that:

A) They simply stood by and let him go on a tear, numb to the screams of the people being slaughtered in the hallways. But that doesn't work well, because after the first scream, you'd have pandemonium inside the tower. He'd need help. So...

B) The other Ghouls were actually complicit in the murdering and either restrained the humans until they could be dispatched, one by one, or they actively helped Roy kill the humans with anything they could get- down to their bare hands.

A more likely scenario, assuming the Ghouls allowed Roy to the lead them up to that point, is that you'd enter the tower and find a charnel house- littered with the bodies of Humans, and Ghouls alike. The majority of the building's population would be dead, or dying, with the odd survivor cowering off in the wings.

The first shot- presumably by Roy, would trigger a panic. If possible, the exits- including the front doors, would have been sealed off ahead of time. Ghouls and Humans might square off against one other, or join forces, depending on their personal reactions to the killing. It wouldn't be pretty.

Or... the unarmed, but more scrupulous, Ghouls- lacking sufficient firepower to resist Roy- might have meekly stared at the floor whilst the humans were rounded up by the others and killed. But assuming your character wasn't shot on sight upon returning to the tower, wouldn't even one of the Ghouls take you aside and beg for mercy, rescue, or justice?

But none of that ever happens. In the end it really is poor quest design/writing in comparison to the Interplay/Black Isle folks. Bethesda's heavy-handed approach to story, and quest design, rarely disabuses you of the impression that there is a man(idiot man-child, perhaps), behind the curtain at all times.

In fairness, there are gems to be found, but not enough of them to counter my negative reactions to the rest of the mess.

 

[cratchety ol joe]

I long ago mentioned the tenpenny/ghoul thing, angered at the lack of resolution, i had spent an hour, perhaps more, carefully looking at the angles, talking to the people that needed talking to, (eventually killing several, done in a 'its for the best' way...)
my efforts to bring together two communities were suddenly undone (Roy killing everything) and I immediately dispensed some justice into his face.

Justice is my word for 'shot-gun shells'

BAD BAD BAAAAD writing.

I'd accept Roy killing every human there (and in light of the fact that T-penny tower has numerous and well armed guards I can only presume that there was some LARGE number of ghouls involved in the culling.) my acceptance being based upon a "oh! that's why you did it" kind of feeling rather than the "wait.. what?" kind of feeling that I got.

Tenpenny is an example I'd use of a badly written quest, well structured, quite well orchestrated with an overall feeling that there are 3 possible outcomes based on the PC's interaction;

~Kill Tenpenny Et Al (or the act of helping toward there demise)
~Kill Roy Et Al (by simple gun+VATS+ghouls=job done)
~Attempt to resolve the situation and everyone is happy)

The overall feeling of quest completions is lacking in the game, most quests (and including Wasteland Survival Guide) are fed-ex,
go - fetch - return - XP (+caps 'optional')

One of the more notable quests Blood Ties (or whatever its called) is actually annoying in the amount of travel between area's (a lot of non quick-travel involved) the quest itself is quite transparent and its reward is lacking.

And of course, excepting for all the side quests, the MQ, well the MQ is at first a little exciting for the feeling of being just behind where dad has been following his trail an pondering if he's still alive, then it sets itself firmly on the train tracks that is the period after tranquillity lane, after which the PC becomes an audience to the unfolding events which, quite frankly even if the PC were to start walking and never turn back getting lost in the wasteland somewhere, the MQ would get along just fine without him/her. I'm pretty sure dad's old drinking buddies in the Lyons BoS would figure out getting a GECK and end up assaulting the Enclave with a Giant robot even if as a PC i sat there drinking margaritas yelling "¡Ándale! ¡Ándale! ¡Arriba! ¡Arriba!"

 

[Tigranes]

No, Roy and Michael aren't suburban Americans...

Okay. I'm not sure what you're getting at here, though, cause none of that counters my point. The point being that Roy, taking his personality and situation in mind, has no reason to be as hesitant or cautious in kililng Tenpenny / humans as you think he should be.

I explained why Roy killing Tenpenny was stupid- because it runs counter to gaining acceptance for Ghouls.

What? So Roy's aim is to have humans and ghouls live in peace after working out their differences and prejudices? He doesn't do anything about feral ghouls, why would he refrain from killing Tenpenny because somebody somewhere out there might be offended? Does he really look like he cares, to you?

Maybe he would if you persuaded him through dialogue. We've already agreed on how having those options would be nice (though I think they should at least be very difficult).

About entitlement-

Yep. I'm saying I am using no such connotation here. Not a big deal, let's move on.

I would think a schizophrenic explanation is making a mountain out of molehills - there is insufficient evidence in the main text to derive such a conclusion. At best, that would be us making excuses for the stuff the game doesn't explain.

I agree with you that the quest has its flaws, the biggest of them being the limited dialogue options for persuasion and the stupid autokill nature of Tenpenny / residents. But I am still convinced that the text does a good enough job of articulating Roy and the conflict/setting in such a way that it is very obvious Roy wants to kill 'em all, now, he has a logical reason for it, and furthermore it's quite nice that the player can't intervene in this long-term conflict and suddenly make everything magically happy-happy with a simple skill check. This, of course, doesn't contradict the flaws I mentioned earlier.

I suspect that we'd all be a lot happier with the way it turns out, if the killings weren't automated, that Roy would explain himself if you talk to him later, if the residents would fight back and there are clear signs of a proper struggle, and if the player has an opportunity to intervene and at least do some damage control. But Bethesda failed to implement the idea thoroughly (as they so often have in FO3).

 

[mountaingoat]

But you're never given any sign that they might have tried to restrain Roy or stop him from killing the other human residents after he killed Tenpenny.

Hey, you’re asking too much from Bethesda. The norm for them is to be as little complicated as possible. Not all parameters are taking into consideration, that’s why there are so many design flaws in most of the quests.

Besides, Todd in a demo presentation gives his idea of best solution by planting a grenade in Roy’s pants. /joke

I can see a script-writer in you though.
Cheers!

I suspect that we'd all be a lot happier with the way it turns out, if the killings weren't automated, that Roy would explain himself if you talk to him later, if the residents would fight back and there are clear signs of a proper struggle, and if the player has an opportunity to intervene and at least do some damage control. But Bethesda failed to implement the idea thoroughly (as they so often have in FO3).

My thoughts exactly!

 

[Iozeph]

And of course, excepting for all the side quests, the MQ, well the MQ is at first a little exciting for the feeling of being just behind where dad has been following his trail an pondering if he's still alive, then it sets itself firmly on the train tracks that is the period after tranquillity lane, after which the PC becomes an audience to the unfolding events which, quite frankly even if the PC were to start walking and never turn back getting lost in the wasteland somewhere, the MQ would get along just fine without him/her. I'm pretty sure dad's old drinking buddies in the Lyons BoS would figure out getting a GECK and end up assaulting the Enclave with a Giant robot even if as a PC i sat there drinking margaritas yelling "¡Ándale! ¡Ándale! ¡Arriba! ¡Arriba!"

I agree- I was having flashbacks of the main quest in Oblivion- where, after a point, you became "step n' fetchit man" and the focus shifted more to Martin and his Blades. The finale left me feeling like a spectator rather than a participant. So I got a free set of armour... small compensation for having my thunder stolen by the dead Emperor's(who really didn't need to die- the ambush in the prison sewers made me wonder- why not escort him- in the open with a host of legionnaires to the Blades fortress?) bastard god dragon whatever... uhh ... son.

Okay. I'm not sure what you're getting at here, though, cause none of that counters my point. The point being that Roy, taking his personality and situation in mind, has no reason to be as hesitant or cautious in kililng Tenpenny / humans as you think he should be.

Hesitant, I wasn't disputing that so much- like you said that's why he and Michael had that plan concocted before you showed up to give them an out. Their committal to following through on it, before you agreed to negotiate, was never in question. However, the aforementioned contradictions in Bethesda's writing, Roy's not shooting you on sight etc., left me feeling that killing Tenpenny and the other residents, after he and the Ghouls got what they wanted, was what made little sense. There being little/no exposition, to bridge the "solution" and the eventual outcome, only served to reenforce that impression.

As stated before- For those reasons, I was ultimately left feeling that the best course of action was to load at an earlier point, and then avoid that area of the game. To me, it's crappy game design/writing if your player ends up wanting to avoid the content you've laboured over.

Put it down to differing points of view again, I suppose.

And, yes, it was probably asking too much of Bethesda. Having no faith that they'd be true to the Fallout franchise, my best hope was that they'd have, at least, improved upon some of the crappier elements of Oblivion- story being chiefly amongst them.

Guess all I can say is...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37150WDTI6c[/youtube]