Lonely Vazdru said:
So, Roshambo, you're the one who worked on Ultima i guess.
So your observations skills aren't *total* shit. As if that helps you now.
OK, i won't go thru this endless quotes shit and do a global answer. First i don't give a rat's ass what avatar you decide do give me, so have fun kiddo, and don't forget to wipe yourself dry when you're thru jackin' off.
Funny, if anyone's mentally masturbating, it's you, especially where you think I wouldn't catch you at your bullshit and lies.
As for the Ultima games i played, it's true i didn't play them all, far from it. I played Ultima IV when it was released, and didn't like it. I played Pagan, and downright hated it. I don't remember seeing much roleplay in either of them, but lots of crawling around, stupid puzzles (that's a very popular flaw in many medieval RPGs- like any dungeon should be packed with enigmas and levers/buttons stuff- but i never could stand it), and much fighting (which was done OK in IV but sucked in Pagan).
Wait, you play TWO GAMES of the entire series, including the Worlds of Ultima series (which are damn good, too), and then try to paint the whole series like that? IV was technologically crude, yet its design was closer to that of Fallout in a P&P RPG sense than TES ever has been, and VIII (Pagan) DID suck, because EA had them compromise the design for trendy reasons.
About the only ones your bitch would even begin to remotely approach reality would be with Ultima Underworld I, which is a spin-off by the now senile Spectre named Warren and completely lacks the setting integration and storyline of Ultima Underworld II.
You're banned, troll boy.
As to why i like Daggerfall, it's not only because of the stats system (even though i find it much closer to my idea of roleplaying to become better at one skill by practicing than by killing until you level up) but because of many features such as :
Kid, it's fairly obvious you have no fucking clue what role-playing is.
You are, in fact, what is considered to be a munchkin ROLL-player.
1) Going wherever you want and being able to play the game without paying any attention to the "central plot".
So? That's not role-playing. That's just open-ended game construction. Straw man fallacy.
2) Designing your own class
Which Fallout, and Ultima VI-VII to a point, also offered.
3) Forgetting about the alignement system and being able to be both an assassin and a knight. Or having a good reputation in one place and being tagged as a public enemy in another.
So much for ROLE-PLAYING, when it's just numbers like that. Really, being able to perform acts of the Dark Brotherhood in front of knights of the realm (which you also belong to), and still be accepted among the knights, is a serious flaw unless the knights approve of it. But given that they generally frown on dark deeds and the local constablatory wants to KILL YOU throughout that region, I doubt they approve of it.
4) Finding many cool things in the game, like reading the right books and summoning the twelve demon princes on the special dates of the year, or discovering the secret network of witches covenants, or going soul hunting to design your soul gems special items. All those things were not necessary, and probably many a player didn't even see them.
Hey, Ultima had this too. Which you might have known if you had played the games instead of playing one from obviously long before you were born (1985) and the other from after the series was commonly said to have gone downhill.
"Finding cool things" in a game doesn't make it a CRPG, either.
And I'm supposed to honor your idiocy on my forum? That's rich.
5) Designing your spells, a feature i hadn't seen since Legend.
*yawn* It's in many games.
Relevance to the discussion: 0%. Relevance to Role-playing: 0%
Again, this has more to do about the character system in general, than ROLE-PLAYING.
6) Choosing between different ways to finish some of the "subplot" quests. This may have been offered in other games, but it's true that i didn't play them all, and it seemed pretty new to me at the time.
Compared to Fallout, and even Ultima (where you had to make moral decisions to sometimes kill someone), this is superficial and weak. As was Morrowind.
About the best "role-playing" you ever get to do in TES is in deciding which RNG people live and which die.
7) Being able to (and even advised to) fail some quests and not reload but keep on playing.
Ultima didn't really have 'quests', but it was rather things the Avatar needed to do in order to save the world. Usually, it was non-linear (especially VI), and didn't revolve around randomizing or sloppy scripting. The scripting in Daggerfall, despite how much potential I thought the game had, was entirely sloppy, down to the bugged reputations throughout the game.
Which they made an improvement to for Morrowind, by removing any scripting worth writing about, and with Oblivion they seem to be hoping that AI can replace their obvious design mistakes and hollowness of the world. Nothing replaces good, coherent design.
I probably could think of many more things but i'll let you tear those down one by one for a start.
I did, and found most of them wholly irrelevant to this discussion, as are you.
As for the real time and reflexes being the trademark of action games and not RPG, that's such a lousy blow, i would cover my face in shame if i was you. Since when does combat system defines a RPG ?
When you are ROLE-PLAYING a CHARACTER. Which means you rely, like in P&P RPGs, upon the character's ability in combat as well as outside of combat. RT does NOT do this, instead it's simply modifiers or handicaps to the PLAYER's skills, and is balanced for a median reflex setting.
Damn, if you're not even going to bother trying to learn what you are talking about, don't even try, kid. More than just the CRPG genre uses a stat system, it's time for the children like you to learn what it is or continue to have shit like Drakkenguard be billed as a CRPG when all the gameplay consists of is mindlessly slashing enemies to make your swords and dragon grow. That is Action-Adventure. The real meaning of CRPG is set in stone, and has been since Chainmail and Blackmoor.
And if you look at those, you will find that they are turn-based, and depending upon the character's stats and abilities, not the player's, to provide for the best role-playing experience possible. A CRPG offers a benefit by providing calculations on the fly (I don't consider the animation mess of RT combat to be "calculation" at all, since the AI is usually shit compared to REAL TB combat AI), while also providing a GM that can present role-playing options at your leisure, without requiring a group. It allows a more singular experience than what a group would offer, as not many GMs run people into solo campaigns unless it's...*gasp*...D&D by e-mail. Which is turn-based again! Amazing coincidence!
That's it for now since i got some serious drinkin' to do, and i hate to keep my friends waiting, but i'll be back later (unless i'm banned, again, feel free to do so, make yourself at home) if you're willing to keep this up. It's always cool to keep a good fight going, and there are not that many forums on the net where you can unsheath your claws.
Too bad you don't have any relevance to the discussion, and by that merit, these forums.
OS was Fallout 2 (it doesn't help to read the IGNorance site, where "Special" Ed Lewis decides to do the crappiest bit of "journalism" i've ever seen), and when they decided to take digs at Troika when the fans as a majority were wanting the original designers and artists back onto a sequel to make one that DOESN'T suck. That not only points out that they are not fans, but that they don't care about the fans or those they consider important.
