Fallout 3 won't be Morrowind-with-guns

[Darque]

Morrowind had at least those three paths or combinations of the three to complete a task.

No, Morrowind didn't. Morrowind had fetch quests or it had kill quests. Your options in those quests were to:

A) Fetch
- OR -
B) Kill.

Let's be fair, now. Sometimes you could fetch and kill!!!

No no.. there were other kinds of quest... I'm sure of it...

There was... umm... and well there is... a... hmm...

I used to like Morrowind (because it was the only new RPG I had at the time)... now I'm quickly seeing no redeeming qualities to it...

I must have been desperate... yeah... that has to be it.

 

[IAmJeff]

I mean "isometric view". What is with the fuckers now? You're the second one that can't seem to grasp a simple concept of a viewpoint.

Well if you expect a big game to be released in 2D like Fallout 1/2, then you are delusional. The game will be 3d, accept it because there is nothing you can do to change that. Lets just hope it has a view like in NWN (option 1st person fine), and not the crappy 3rd person as there is in Morrowind (which by design is meant to be 1st person)

No, Morrowind didn't use the SPECIAL system. "SPECIAL" actually stands for the seven key skills in the game.

Strength
Perception
Endurance
Charisma
Intelligence
Agility
Luck

See how that spells out S.P.E.C.I.A.L.? Note that Morrowind didn't have those 7 skills.

I am so sorry, Morrowind is
Strength In Fallout
Intelligence In Fallout
Willpower Not in Fallout
Agility In Fallout
Seed Not in Fallout
Endurance In Fallout
Personality Like Charisma
Luck In Fallout
Missing Perception

They way many people have complained, they seem to make it like Bethesda makes fps, when they cleary do not. So they do not use SPECIAL exactly. What they have used is similar and not much different therefore they could easily apply what they know how to do and use SPECIAL. Or just something different or new. If the stats are slightly named differently will that make the game bad?

If they were done differently, you ignorant, pre-pubescant little dog-turd, how in the HELL could they have used the SPECIAL system?

Sigh, maybe you should understand special. Special just stands for attributes, ie Strength. I did not know it implied how you leveled. I am sorry I do not devote my life to Fallout. But the general idea is the same. You have skills and attributes, how they increase is a bit different, and cater to the game. You will have to wait and see, but I would see no reason why Bethesda would not use the system in Fallout 1/2, maybe a bit improved.

No, Morrowind didn't. Morrowind had fetch quests or it had kill quests. Your options in those quests were to:

A) Fetch
- OR -
B) Kill.

Ever find an NPC you had to kill as part of a quest and find you couldn't get out of it? Matter of fact, if Morrowind really had those multiple paths, why on Earth were you forced through the linear main plot that you had to do? Rememeber how you had to do EVERYTHING EXACTLY as you were told? That's not 3 different solutions. That's one linear game.

Umm, maybe try and play the game. First off for many quests you could kill (and fetch), steal, or in some cases persuade/buy an item in question. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO THE MAIN QUEST!! That is the beauty of Morrowind, there is so much to do you can get lost in the world and do random quests that come up for any of the factions or other people.

I will give you that for the main quest you had to certain things, but you could go about getting something in different ways.

Two things here. Either Bethesda are stupid and they really haven't thought this through before purchsing the license (hardly likely) in which case they really don't know what they're doing with it.

- OR -

As is mroe likely, they've already got a core idea of what they're going to do. We're talking basic decisions here and if what Briosafreak says is true, then Bethesda have been looking at some kind of Fallout based game since December of last year. That's a long time to not come up with any ideas.

I would bet Bethesda does some ideas, but as with any game nothing is EVERY set in stone this early in the process. Since they just bought the license, they are still VERY early in the process of developing the game. Unless they plan to use some or all of Van Buren.

Let me guess, you were one of those who kept saying we had to play FO:BOS to find out if it was shit or not? ... and one of those who was asking how we could criticise a game when we hadn't even heard most of the detail yet? Oh gee, look how that turned out.
See this article? I wrote that based on FO:BOS before the game came out. I based that article off of interviews (what was said and what wasn't), trailers and screenshots and was still told to wait until it came out because "it might be good!' In the end, FO:BOS was a piece of crap. It sold only 19,000 units world-wide and I was right.

Well you should have realized it was crap because it was a console exclusive game based on a pc game (has there every been a succesfull game of this nature?)

I would also not trust trailers to give an accurate view of a game, other then how the game will look (ie 1st or 3rd person)

There is a difference between going out an buying a game after it came out and reading about what a developer plans to do months before a game is released. Most big developers these days are very open with the community and tell the community what they plan to do. IF Bethesda says something will be in the game that is not good, ie the info they release means it will be an fps, then there needs to be outcry. Now I did not read that whole article (I skimmed it) but I could guess the game was made by a less respected developer and that is was never ever to be the next Fallout 1/2. Untill Bethesda tells us otherwise, we should believe that it will be a continuation.
You can not critique someone on something they have not shown yet

Bethesda are already heading down the same path. Unless they turn around quick smart, it'll only get worse.

How are they heading down the same path? They have had the license less then a week!! Give them at least 3-6 months before you can really say they are in bad shape (maybe longer if they do not use Van Buren).

You all have the right to critise Bethesda, I am just saying it is unwarrented. Maybe you should do what they did with Civ3 and now doing for Civ4 and that is make a list of what the community wants. It was VERY succesfull for Civ3 and looks like it will play a bigger role for Civ4 (goto http://apolyton.net and goto the forums to look for the civ4 list and see what the community does. If you want Bethesda to do something, comment and say what you want do not call them incompetent or a bad dev when they clearly are not whether you want to belive that or not.

I also do not understand you great disrespect for me, what have I done? Tried to assure you that Bethesda will make a good game? If you think "Isometric view" and the "SPECIAL SYSTEM" will make or break Fallout 3 your are greatly mistaken. And Bethesda has a great track record of making great games. You also must realize they have to make money and they will do everything required to make money by most importantly including "non-linearity." It is unfortunate that you have nothing better to do then be steadfast in your "Fallout 3" beliefs and call everyone who disagrees with you ignorant, etc. (hey isnt that totalitarianism?)

 

[God is Dog backwards]

3D is good, in the 3/4 viewpoint that FO1 and 2 had. That's isometric, isn't it, or is isometric striclty for 2D games with no perspective?

 

[jaberwocki]

why don't we call iso in 3d psudo iso?

 

[IAmJeff]

Actually, it's real time. Isometric is a type of third person, but is not the same as a chase cam like Morrowind's third person uses. Point and click works well in isometric, but not well at all with an over the shoulder chase cam. Fallout is point and click for many reasons.

The view I am refering to is not the 3rd person crap in Morrowind, but the one NWN. And please do not say because they did in Morrowind they will do it in the new Fallout game.

Dear lord, son. Posting is a responsibility on the internet and should be treated as such. Before you make statements as if they're facts on very simple things like that, you really should take the 30 seconds to google up "SPECIAL system" to find out what it actually is. If you posted that tidbit about Morrowind using SPECIAL on most gaming forums other than RPG specific ones, you would have just made the entire world a little more ignorant, and that's irresponsible.

Sigh, you guys are too close - minded. I said that that Morrowind used special but things were different. You can view this like I based my product off of yours and changed it to suit the needs of something a little different. Yes morrowind was different but it was so to fit the game. Maybe in Fallout 3 you could play as a mutant or have mutant allies? Do you not think there stats should reflect them (ie high strength)? If you try to argue Morrowind system is not similar to Fallout your are being stubborn. What is with everyone calling me ignorant (now do not say because I am) ? I do not know what else to say, maybe I should have just said Similar to begin with, my mistake but my god do not go crazy because some may be a little off.

Actually, my ignorant friend, it may not be logical, but it is economical. They already have the Morrowind character system implimented in Morrowind. I'm not sure the name of the Morrowind character system, so I'll just refer to it as the SUCKSNUTS system.

Anyway, because they already have an implimentation of SUCKSNUTS in Morrowind, they can easily transfer it over to the Fallout code base, make a few tweaks, and run with it. They don't have to do all kinds of balancing and testing either, because SUCKSNUTS was play tested in Morrowind. The less time you have to impliment and test something, the higher the profits.

They can also put in the box, "Uses the SUCKSNUTS system as seen in the Award Winning Morrowind, which sold gazillions of copies world wide."

You have to be kidding me right? I could implement the Fallout system easily in one week, in C++ code. And yes I would not like the Morrowind system in Fallout 3, BUT NO ONE SAID THEY WOULD USE IT. And it would be ECONOMICAL to use the old Fallout 1/2 system (maybe a few added skills and such) because it would help attract the hardcore audiance while not effect the sales on everyone else.

Can someone tell my this stigma people have with Morrowind? It is one of my favorite games of all time (behind Civilization Series, Starcraft, Fallout, Deus Ex, and a few others) I am sorry you did not enjoy the game, but you should not critize and assume because they have the Fallout license it will be Morrowind with guns. Even though it is possible, like I said before, WAIT A FEW MONTHS FOR THEM TO REVEAL INFO ABOUT THE GAME.

Like hell it did. The lack of dialogue trees alone presents a huge problem for diplomatic routes and as stated by others, the vast majority of Morrowind quests were Kill and/or fetch. That one story quest where you had to deal with the four thieves in the cave, the only option you have is to kill them, for example.

Look at my reply to DarkUnderlord for a fuller explanation to this, but in short if this is what you believe, play the game again because there ARE MULTIPLE PATHS TO MANY SITUATIONS. I will say not all but to many there are. AND EVEN IF Bethesda never made a game before with multiple paths, who is to say they can not do it now?

In a really short summery GIVE THEM A DAMN CHANCE, they have had this for less then a week. I am sorry that maybe Bethesda was not your first choice of a developer, but give them at least till E3 next year before you make a final judgement, otherwise you are being unrealistic and unreasonable.

 

[Pope Viper]

You have to be kidding me right? I could implement the Fallout system easily in one week, in C++ code. And yes I would not like the Morrowind system in Fallout 3, BUT NO ONE SAID THEY WOULD USE IT. And it would be ECONOMICAL to use the old Fallout 1/2 system (maybe a few added skills and such) because it would help attract the hardcore audiance while not effect the sales on everyone else.

Giggles hysterically.

Wow.

You da man.

 

[carter]

I'm a long-time lurker and I normally don't post but this really makes my blood boiling.

why don't we call iso in 3d psudo iso?

Look, it's easy. Isometric is special kind of projection to project 3-dimensional objects to a 2-dimensional representation of said objects. In other words a thing every single 3-D Engine in the universe must do to have something to look at on your monitor.
Thus it would be correct to call a 3DGame that implements such a perspective isometric. Not pseudo-isometric, 3rd person or any such bullshit, just isometric.

 

[jaberwocki]

I know but so many people said iso was only 2d so I meant why don't we just call what we want psudo iso just so it has a label.

 

[IAmJeff]

You have to be kidding me right? I could implement the Fallout system easily in one week, in C++ code. And yes I would not like the Morrowind system in Fallout 3, BUT NO ONE SAID THEY WOULD USE IT. And it would be ECONOMICAL to use the old Fallout 1/2 system (maybe a few added skills and such) because it would help attract the hardcore audiance while not effect the sales on everyone else.

Giggles hysterically.

Wow.

You da man.

The experience and skill rules do not take a long time, it combining that with a current game structure that would be difficult. Say you make rules.h file that would contain all the stat objects and how things are rolled. IE: Have a function when you attack, with separate variables/functions for the different possible situations. All you would have to do in the main game is call the appropriate function in the rules file and pass the corresponding variables into the function to return a result. In the attack example it would return if succesfull and if it was, how much dmg was done.

The thing is since most games have a lot of code with calls to rules frequently you would have to make it make sense in the main game code. But a modular rules file could easily be made in a week. So unless you are a more experience comp sci major (or graduate) then I am go a head and say otherwise. But from my experience as a coder, The rules file on how the stats interact with the game would be simple, easy and quick.

 

[Per]

If they were done differently, you ignorant, pre-pubescant little dog-turd, how in the HELL could they have used the SPECIAL system?

Sigh, maybe you should understand special. Special just stands for attributes, ie Strength.

JeffK, is that you?

I also do not understand you great disrespect for me, what have I done?

Posted things like the above, perhaps. Even if by "special" you didn't mean SPECIAL, your statement is nonsensical at best.

 

[IAmJeff]

I'm a long-time lurker and I normally don't post but this really makes my blood boiling.

why don't we call iso in 3d psudo iso?

Look, it's easy. Isometric is special kind of projection to project 3-dimensional objects to a 2-dimensional representation of said objects. In other words a thing every single 3-D Engine in the universe must do to have something to look at on your monitor.
Thus it would be correct to call a 3DGame that implements such a perspective isometric. Not pseudo-isometric, 3rd person or any such bullshit, just isometric.

Yes but I believe many of the biggest complainers want Fallout 3 to look like Fallout 2 (use the same engine) and not go full 3d like NWN. Granted it would not bother me, but they need to make money and only 3d like in NWN would work.

 

[Briosafreak]

Isometric as in the perspective used in games like Fallout, 2d and 3d as technology, as in software only or hardware accelarated. 2D isometric is used in games like Diablo, Baldurs Gate or Fallout, 3D isometric is used in games like Silent Storm, a mix of 2D sets and 3d characters in iso is used in games like ToEE. 1st person perspective in 2D is used in games like TES Arena, 1st person 3D is used in games like Morrowind.

If not even these simple concepts the majority of the Bethesda fans can`t grasp, like widely seen in the official boards, then discussion turns out pointless and tiresome. But good luck for those with patience for that. And many Morrowind fans aren`t all that bad, just don`t know much about games and particularly Fallout, i wish them the best for their next TES game.

 

[IAmJeff]

I am being hit from all sides

If they were done differently, you ignorant, pre-pubescant little dog-turd, how in the HELL could they have used the SPECIAL system?

Sigh, maybe you should understand special. Special just stands for attributes, ie Strength.

JeffK, is that you?

I also do not understand you great disrespect for me, what have I done?

Posted things like the above, perhaps. Even if by "special" you didn't mean SPECIAL, your statement is nonsensical at best.

I am not JeffK, and if you are implying that, "I also do not understand you great disrespect for me, what have I done?" is the reason for disrespect then you have not read the multiple posts clearly at me. They did not even consider the possibility of me being right.

If you believe what I said about SPECIAL is the cause for disrespect, SPECIAL does stand for attributes, DarkUnderlord proved that in his post. Yes there is more involved to it, that is why I said that the systems in Morrowind and the SPECIAL system in Fallout 1/2 were similiar. That is because they are Similar, not the same, not almost the same, and not very close. Similar and accept they are similar because anyone who has played Morrowind must agree.

 

[Roshambo]

I'm now reminded of that puppet, Special Ed.

"YAYYYY! THEY BOTH HAVE STRENGTH! THEY ARE SIMILAR!!! YAAAAYYY!"

Get a fucking clue as to how each of the character systems work.

 

[IAmJeff]

Isometric as in the perspective used in games like Fallout, 2d and 3d as technology, as in software only or hardware accelarated. 2D isometric is used in games like Diablo, Baldurs Gate or Fallout, 3D isometric is used in games like Silent Storm, a mix of 2D sets and 3d characters in iso is used in games like ToEE. 1st person perspective in 2D is used in games like TES Arena, 1st person 3D is used in games like Morrowind.

If not even these simple concepts the majority of the Bethesda fans can`t grasp, like widely seen in the official boards, then discussion turns out pointless and tiresome. But good luck for those with patience for that. And many Morrowind fans aren`t all that bad, just don`t know much about games and particularly Fallout, i wish them the best for their next TES game.

Not sure if this was directed at me, but since it seems like everytime I reply to a message there is another I might as well go another round. I think the majority of Fallout fans, myself included, would welcome the isometric view in Fallout. However in todays gaming market, you can just not expect any publisher to allow a game studio to go 2d. Bottom line is if it is 3d it will see more then 2d, even though it could allienate some hardcore fallout fans.

I also think because someone is a "Bethesda Fan", how would that imply lack of knowledge in games. I would say it would be people who are newer to the gaming community or those who do not know the tech aspects of the computer. I would also bet there are a lot of people who are both Bethesda and Fallout fans. And even with their differences are closer together on the game spectrum then games like Starcraft and Fallout.

 

[carter]

Yes but I believe many of the biggest complainers want Fallout 3 to look like Fallout 2 (use the same engine) and not go full 3d like NWN. Granted it would not bother me, but they need to make money and only 3d like in NWN would work.

Excuse me, did you read the same posts I did? Sure some were saying they wouldn't mind using the old engine. But most said that they want Fallout to remain the isometric perspective or at least have an eagle-eye viewpoint like S².
And to that whole F3 should look like F2/1. I would say that is quite possible to do with an 3D-Engine using orthogonal projection. Sure getting the same level of detail is not as easy, but thats besides the point.

SPECIAL does stand for attributes,

You misunderstand. Special is an abbreviation for the main attributes, but it's also a substitue for the whole ruleset. There are many more things to it than just Attributes and skills. The SPECIAL ruleset greatly differs from Morrowinds ruleset. These things are important to understand. With a different ruleset you get a different game.

 

[IAmJeff]

I'm now reminded of that puppet, Special Ed.

"YAYYYY! THEY BOTH HAVE STRENGTH! THEY ARE SIMILAR!!! YAAAAYYY!"

Get a fucking clue as to how each of the character systems work.

Yes that is true, they share the names of many attributes and and skills. I would also assume that strength interacts with the engine similarly in both games. IE effect melee damage etc. Sorry if the above was not directed at me but I KNOW I clearly stated they were similar and not the same.

sim·i·lar
adj. Related in appearance or nature; alike though not identical.
- From dictionary.com
Alright understand this fact and live with the fact the Morrowind and Fallout have similarities.

I do not know if this has been possed before, but what is wrong with a view like in NWN? Why are so many deadset for it to look exactly like Fallout 1/2. Now like I said before I would welcome it to look like Fallout 1/2, but I just do not see a modern developer to have it look like Fallout 1/2 (heck I doubt that Troika would have even kept the view like Fallout 1/2)

 

[Roshambo]

Yes that is true, they share the names of many attributes and and skills. I would also assume that strength interacts with the engine similarly in both games.

Maybe just stregth, but the rest of your comparison falls apart when you actually know the Fallout stat system. You, obviously, do not.

IE effect melee damage etc. Sorry if the above was not directed at me but I KNOW I clearly stated they were similar and not the same.

No, they work quite differently and have different effects. They are calculated differently and some of Fallout's stats have substats, which you've conveniently neglected, as they are part of the system, too.

By your pathetic logic, every character system is similar because they have strength and intelligence attributes. How is this relevant to anything pertaining to character design? Just because there is a strength stat, that doesn't mean it is similar in design in any way.

sim·i·lar
adj. Related in appearance or nature; alike though not identical.
- From dictionary.com
Alright understand this fact and live with the fact the Morrowind and Fallout have similarities.

Superficial as hell, and if your only basis for continuing this bullshit is semantics, that's one strike for trolling.

[/quote]
I do not know if this has been possed before, but what is wrong with a view like in NWN? Why are so many deadset for it to look exactly like Fallout 1/2. Now like I said before I would welcome it to look like Fallout 1/2, but I just do not see a modern developer to have it look like Fallout 1/2 (heck I doubt that Troika would have even kept the view like Fallout 1/2)[/quote]

Clue Patrol: The viewpoint was used for a reason

 

[IAmJeff]

I can not win, can I?

Yes but I believe many of the biggest complainers want Fallout 3 to look like Fallout 2 (use the same engine) and not go full 3d like NWN. Granted it would not bother me, but they need to make money and only 3d like in NWN would work.

Excuse me, did you read the same posts I did? Sure some were saying they wouldn't mind using the old engine. But most said that they want Fallout to remain the isometric perspective or at least have an eagle-eye viewpoint like S².
And to that whole F3 should look like F2/1. I would say that is quite possible to do with an 3D-Engine using orthogonal projection. Sure getting the same level of detail is
not as easy, but thats besides the point.

SPECIAL does stand for attributes,

You misunderstand. Special is an abbreviation for the main attributes but it's also a substitue for the whole ruleset. There are many more things to it than just Attributes and skills. The SPECIAL ruleset greatly differs from Morrowinds ruleset. These things are important to understand. With a different ruleset you get a different game.

As to the view, I just do not think a Publisher or the financial people at a game studio would allow a game of this size to not be in 3d, like in NWN. And what I meant by using the old engine is the view. You can not have a set view in a modern game. You need to rotate and get a full 3d view. I am sorry that I did not specify "Fallout 1/2 engine" to mean "Something that looks like Fallout 1/2 engine", but based on what I wrote I thought it was clear enough to state my point. Because I doubt on a project of this magnitude an engine that looks like the Fallout 1/2 engine woud be acceptable to the general public.

 

[Roshambo]

I can not win, can I?

Maybe because you're at rock bottom and continuing to dig with each piece of ignorance you try to post as some kind of substance.

As to the view, I just do not think a Publisher or the financial people at a game studio would allow a game of this size to not be in 3d, like in NWN. And what I meant by using the old engine is the view. You can not have a set view in a modern game. You need to rotate and get a full 3d view.

I love it when people try to play armchair developer when they have no idea of game presentation, interface design, or atmosphere, much less any hope of understanding the character system.

I am sorry that I did not specify "Fallout 1/2 engine" to mean "Something that looks like Fallout 1/2 engine", but based on what I wrote I thought it was clear enough to state my point.

Yeah, perfectly clear.

Yes but I believe many of the biggest complainers want Fallout 3 to look like Fallout 2 (use the same engine) and not go full 3d like NWN.

Hey, damned by your own words.

You just can't win, can you?