Fallout 3 won't be Morrowind-with-guns

[Per]

If you believe what I said about SPECIAL is the cause for disrespect, SPECIAL does stand for attributes, DarkUnderlord proved that in his post. Yes there is more involved to it, that is why I said that the systems in Morrowind and the SPECIAL system in Fallout 1/2 were similiar.

You just don't get it, do you? You've essentially told us that the Storyteller games use the d20 system and now you're trying to weasel your way out of it by saying you were right anyway since they're both RPG systems. Why do you think we would respect that?

 

[IAmJeff]

If you read nothing else, read the last paragraph!

This is a rebutal to the 2nd post by Roshambo, you can skip it because I wrote this other one to the first but then my internet went screwy:

I can not win, can I?

Maybe because you're at rock bottom and continuing to dig with each piece of ignorance you try to post as some kind of substance.

It is amazing what, dont worry Bethesda will do fine, give them some time, lets us (the community) help Bethesda make Fallout 3 better then 1 and 2 has turned into Jeff you are ignorant, what you say is wrong etc.

As to the view, I just do not think a Publisher or the financial people at a game studio would allow a game of this size to not be in 3d, like in NWN. And what I meant by using the old engine is the view. You can not have a set view in a modern game. You need to rotate and get a full 3d view.

I love it when people try to play armchair developer when they have no idea of game presentation, interface design, or atmosphere, much less any hope of understanding the character system.

I could give this to you from the programmers persepective? But that does not help hear. I was basing my conclusiong on the fact of when was the last successfull game, that had the isometric view of Fallout, a success either financially or by hardcore fans. The last I could think of was Diablo II / Baldur's Gate II back in 2000. Looking back at the games I have those are the last 2 I could think of. And since Fallout 3 would at the earliest be out in 2005, 5 years since an isometric game success would not bode well for another one. Maybe from now own I should preface everything with IMO, so you all do not just rip up everything I say.

I am sorry that I did not specify "Fallout 1/2 engine" to mean "Something that looks like Fallout 1/2 engine", but based on what I wrote I thought it was clear enough to state my point.

Yeah, perfectly clear.

Yes but I believe many of the biggest complainers want Fallout 3 to look like Fallout 2 (use the same engine) and not go full 3d like NWN.

Hey, damned by your own words.

Well the first thing in that quote should explain the second.

You just can't win, can you?[/quote]

Just watch me win

Now to the first post:
If you read nothing else, read the last paragraph.

Yes that is true, they share the names of many attributes and and skills. I would also assume that strength interacts with the engine similarly in both games.

Maybe just stregth, but the rest of your comparison falls apart when you actually know the Fallout stat system. You, obviously, so not.

If you read above in a previous post it list the similar attributes:
Strength In Fallout
Intelligence In Fallout
Willpower Not in Fallout
Agility In Fallout
Seed Not in Fallout
Endurance In Fallout
Personality Like Charisma
Luck In Fallout
Missing Perception
What else is there to know about the Fallout System. You got your attributes, skills, hp, Feats, etc. And Basically your attributes dictate how good you are in their given general area. You then have skills to fine tune how good you are at different skills. Then you got hp for life and feats just to make things a bit more interesting. If by knowing how SPECIAL works in Fallout you mean how the internal mechanics work, no I do not know how a roll to attack someone relates directly to me succeeding or failing, nor is there any need to know exactly unless you are coding/modding the game. IMO it is excessive to say someone does not understand SPECIAL because they make general coments about it

IE effect melee damage etc. Sorry if the above was not directed at me but I KNOW I clearly stated they were similar and not the same.

No, they work quite differently and have different effects. They are calculated differently and some of Fallout's stats have substats, which you've conveniently neglected, as they are part of the system, too.

Yes that was a simple example. Strength effects melee damage, I never said they were calculated the same or the probable 100's of what strength is used in either game. Its just a single example that would be in both. And by substats you would mean skills, like lockpicking? I have mentioned that in the few posts in the particular topic. Both have them and both, and I believe, are tied to an attribute.

By your pathetic logic, every character system is similar because they have strength and intelligence attributes. How is this relevant to anything pertaining to character design? Just because there is a strength stat, that doesn't mean it is similar in design in any way.

Well I would say they are all similar, because to my knowledge they are all using D&D as a base (heck isn't every RPG derived from D&D?). The internal mechanics of a game vary all the time due to what is in the game and how to make the game balance and to create nessasary items to create gameplay. Because one action causes a variable number to get really high, you would have to modify the system to be able to use that high number. But most systems are similar and use the same basic ideas, implenmation could be done in Infinite possibilities. I hope people who ask for SPECIAL do not expect it to work and be identically to that in Fallout 1/2 unless the same engine is used (which I highly doubt)

sim·i·lar
adj. Related in appearance or nature; alike though not identical.
- From dictionary.com
Alright understand this fact and live with the fact the Morrowind and Fallout have similarities.

Superficial as hell, and if your only basis for continuing this bullshit is semantics, that's one strike for trolling.

I guess it was unnessasary (and a cheap shot), it is just that too many are crtisizing me on such a trivial issue. And that is what I said in my original post about SPECIAL which has been construeed as I try to defend myself from all those who call my ignorant or say I know nothing.


[/quote]
I do not know if this has been possed before, but what is wrong with a view like in NWN? Why are so many deadset for it to look exactly like Fallout 1/2. Now like I said before I would welcome it to look like Fallout 1/2, but I just do not see a modern developer to have it look like Fallout 1/2 (heck I doubt that Troika would have even kept the view like Fallout 1/2)[/quote]

Clue Patrol: The viewpoint was used for a reason[/quote]

Yes the viewpoint in Fallout 1/2 was used in a time when 3d was much more difficult and expensive (IMO). 3d is much more common and for games to sell (unfortunatly) they have to look good. Good 3d graphics is a way for a game dev to accomplish this.

My reasons for continuing this are for none other then to get people to accept Bethesda for the time being (kinda been lost in all of this nonsense, blame those who react harshly against those with different opinions and changing the argument from accepting to Bethesda to we dont like Bethesda or any of their games). I think it is in the BEST INTERESTS OF FALLOUT to give Bethesda a chance to show all of its cards. And I think it is up to us fans to give them a concise and reasonalbe expectation of what Fallout 3 should be. Bashing Bethesda for the games in the past and assuming every game Bethesda makes will make will be like Morrowind is silly. EVERY game company at one time or another has tried something different. Lets support them COMPLETELY and work together to make a great game, like with the list in CIV3. I think if you all got to know me instead of bashing everything I said you would all realize how reasonable I am and how I am passionate about my games, especially including Fallout. I think in my first post I tried to create simularities between Morrowind and Fallout 1/2 to show Bethesda is capable of doing it. I think people got lost in the fact I was supporting Bethesda and they did not like that and that grew to this debate. Remember we are all on the same team, the team for a succesfull. Fans who are AGAINST the developer will not help Fallout 3's cause, support the development and maybe, just maybe they will lissten. On a final note has this bashing been against my partly because you guys think I joined to cause problems (I signed up to support Bethesda and the continuing dev of Fallout 3 to create the best possible game). Did I win Roshambo?

 

[IAmJeff]

THIS was shown before the really long one, sorry if I sound rude . . .

If you believe what I said about SPECIAL is the cause for disrespect, SPECIAL does stand for attributes, DarkUnderlord proved that in his post. Yes there is more involved to it, that is why I said that the systems in Morrowind and the SPECIAL system in Fallout 1/2 were similiar.

You just don't get it, do you? You've essentially told us that the Storyteller games use the d20 system and now you're trying to weasel your way out of it by saying you were right anyway since they're both RPG systems. Why do you think we would respect that?

I am not trying to weasel myself out, there are plenty of storytelling games (most modern games IMO). I am saying that most games that use player stats, like fallout, have their base in D&D. D&D was the first game to do this to my knowledge and since so many games are similar to it and came AFTER D&D then you can logically conclude every other system is influenced by D&D. Either directly or indirectly. And by using D&D as a base has nothing to do with a d20's or whatnot. It has to use the fact that you have stats that give you a given chance to succeed or fail. Please stop creating something that I did not say, even though you saying something I did not say allows me to clarify. Which in turn has more created about it and then again allows me to clarify . . .

If this angers you more, I am sorry. But as I said in my previous big post it is time to get to the real issue which was the point of my original post and that is to ensure you all the Bethesda will do well. THAT IS ALL MY ORIGINAL POST WAS MEANT TO DO. Then it got construed by one idiot who caused this whole big nothing. Then cycle began where whatever either side says, both sides are wrong and it will continue onto infinity. Lets get back to my original intent which is to ensure that Fallout 3 is a success and I outlined that in my previous post.

 

[IAmJeff]

On a brighter note, anyone else want to make a list of what we would like in Fallout 3. Where we can debate whats in, whats out and get Bethesda involved? This way we can attempt to get a clear concensus of our suggestions and make it easy for Bethesda to see it? IMO this would be the best way of doing this, bickering in multiple topics leaves all the ideas spread out and difficult for the developer (if the so chose) to embrace the community.

 

[carter]

You keep saying that games with isometric viewpoint or a isometric-like viewpoint don't sell or are unacceptable for the gaming public. You also implied that isometric is not full 3D. Yet none of this is correct.
Take Silent Storm for example. It wasn't technically isometric, but it is the p.o.v. most people demand. S² was not only a financial and gaming success, it had brilliant graphic too.

Anyway on to the ruleset.
Yes SPECIAL is "similar" to Morrowinds system, but they share only superficial similarities. SPECIAL has a xp-system not a learning-by-doing-system, the way skills work are vastly different, the subattributes Rosh mentioned (no not skills) are non-existent in MW, perks aren't there either and theres alot more. But these aren't even the deep mechanical differences between the systems.

They way many people have complained, they seem to make it like Bethesda makes fps, when they cleary do not. So they do not use SPECIAL exactly. What they have used is similar and not much different therefore they could easily apply what they know how to do and use SPECIAL. Or just something different or new. If the stats are slightly named differently will that make the game bad?

This is why I tried to demonstrate that there is in fact a vast difference. Just because Bethesda can pull off system A , does in fact not mean that they're able to apply their knowledge from A to system B .

Comprende?

 

[Per]

Morrowind used the special system.

IMO it is excessive to say someone does not understand SPECIAL because they make general coments about it

For crying out loud. OF COURSE you don't understand the SPECIAL system. If you even knew what it was you WOULD NOT HAVE WRITTEN THAT. Because Morrowind DID NOT involve the SPECIAL system. I am not making this up as I go along. It is a F - A - C - T.

If this angers you more, I am sorry.

You're sorry? Really? Then will you please somehow make the tiniest effort to find out just what you are talking about before you post three more increasingly lengthy posts about it?

 

[Bradylama]

I used to like Morrowind (because it was the only new RPG I had at the time)... now I'm quickly seeing no redeeming qualities to it...

The sense of exploration?

Seriously, Morrowind had a world the size of Manhattan, if not bigger. I've played the game 4 times and I've still found something new every time. The main quest was surprisingly good as well.

It seems I get overlooked quite a lot.

 

[SimpleMinded]

I used to like Morrowind (because it was the only new RPG I had at the time)... now I'm quickly seeing no redeeming qualities to it...

The sense of exploration?

Seriously, Morrowind had a world the size of Manhattan, if not bigger. I've played the game 4 times and I've still found something new every time. The main quest was surprisingly good as well.

It seems I get overlooked quite a lot.

Hrm... a thread should get started in General Gaming about Morrowind, Pros and Cons. I honestly felt Morrowind was horrid. It's just under Black & White and just above Dungeon Siege on my list of disappointments. The world is boring, combat is horrible. Sure you can explore but the world isn't all that wonderful. After a while I got tired of wandering. I kept getting attacked by these bloody flying guys or the same running things. The quests were mundane, I don't know how many people asked me to fetch some damn herb or letter for them. I gave up about 15 hours into the game.

 

[Pope Viper]

Not really sure what good that what do. The Beth dev's have already indicated they're aware of deficiences, and learned from the mistakes.

 

[Bradylama]

I used to like Morrowind (because it was the only new RPG I had at the time)... now I'm quickly seeing no redeeming qualities to it...

The sense of exploration?

Seriously, Morrowind had a world the size of Manhattan, if not bigger. I've played the game 4 times and I've still found something new every time. The main quest was surprisingly good as well.

It seems I get overlooked quite a lot.

Hrm... a thread should get started in General Gaming about Morrowind, Pros and Cons. I honestly felt Morrowind was horrid. It's just under Black & White and just above Dungeon Siege on my list of disappointments. The world is boring, combat is horrible. Sure you can explore but the world isn't all that wonderful. After a while I got tired of wandering. I kept getting attacked by these bloody flying guys or the same running things. The quests were mundane, I don't know how many people asked me to fetch some damn herb or letter for them. I gave up about 15 hours into the game.

*shrug*

Different Strokes for Different Folks.

Those Cliffracers were really fucking annoying though. I'm walking to an Ebony Mine minding my own business when all of a sudden I hear that loud clanking sound and the screen flashes red. Nearly gave me a heart attack.

 

[IAmJeff]

Dude this was in one of my previous posts.
What else is there to know about the Fallout System. You got your attributes, skills, hp, Feats, etc. And Basically your attributes dictate how good you are in their given general area. You then have skills to fine tune how good you are at different skills. Then you got hp for life and feats just to make things a bit more interesting. If by knowing how SPECIAL works in Fallout you mean how the internal mechanics work, no I do not know how a roll to attack someone relates directly to me succeeding or failing, nor is there any need to know exactly unless you are coding/modding the game. IMO it is excessive to say someone does not understand SPECIAL because they make general coments about it

To see if I was missing something I did a google one this: "SPECIAL system" + fallout and found this article
http://www.thecomputershow.com/computershow/previews/fallout.htm

Here is the paragraph on it: "Since GURPS is out the statistics have been designed around a SPECIAL system which stands for Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charasma, Intelligence, Agility, and Luck. The SPECIAL system is mirrored in dozens of role playing games throughout the world. Many other statistics, such as hit points will be based upon the combination of strength and endurance. These statistics are called derived statistics.

The real important derived statistics are the skills, such as master trader, knife-fighting, beam weapons, and others. The skill based system allows you to allocate skill points gained through experience in the game. The skills involve a choice between several skills to develop over time.
"

I think my earlier post was pretty darn close.

Morrowind used the special system.

IMO it is excessive to say someone does not understand SPECIAL because they make general coments about it

For crying out loud. OF COURSE you don't understand the SPECIAL system. If you even knew what it was you WOULD NOT HAVE WRITTEN THAT. Because Morrowind DID NOT involve the SPECIAL system. I am not making this up as I go along. It is a F - A - C - T.

If this angers you more, I am sorry.

You're sorry? Really? Then will you please somehow make the tiniest effort to find out just what you are talking about before you post three more increasingly lengthy posts about it?

The posts increase in length because the comments on each consecutive post get bigger . . .


Yea cliff racers were annoying, there was a plugin that made them less agressive though. I just think people are writting Bethesda off before they are given a chance to prove they can make Fallout 3 right. The great thing about Morrowind is you can do so much while doing so little of the main quest. Also random dungeons and other hidden sites are all over the place allowing for almost limitless explortation (especially with player made plugins allowing for truely infinite exploring and replay)

I do think isometric games are unnacceptable to the public, it is not that I do not like them (does not matter if it is or not as long as it works), I just think nowadays things need to look good in order to sell. Look if they were making this game for the hardcore Fallout fan it would not be an issue but they need to appeal to a wide audianceand IMO good graphics are the only option.

My originaly way of trying to prove Bethesda could do it was incorrect. Saying they could do one thing, therefore they could do another was not the right way of doing it. Bottom line is they need to be given a chance and we the fans of Fallout 1/2 need to give our input.

 

[King of Creation]

I do think isometric games are unnacceptable to the public

ARGH ARGH ARGH ARGH!!!!!
I'm too frustrated to tackle anything right now.

 

[Bradylama]

Allow me to repeat myself:

If you meant that Morrowind's rule system uses a skill-based system like the one in SPECIAL, then you're kinda right.

Morrowind's roleplaying experience was class-based, however. Although technically you could do anything with enough practice, only increasing your core and secondary skills achieve a level-up, whereas SPECIAL used an experience-based levelling system. Certain races were also more inclined for certain roles than others as well (Orcs don't make for very good Mages).

Morrowind's gameplay was skill-based, but that's essentially where the similarities end.

Also, because there was a plugin that reduced Cliffracer aggression, that doesn't necessarily excuse their presence in the first place.

 

[SkynetV4]

I do think isometric games are unnacceptable to the public

ARGH ARGH ARGH ARGH!!!!!
I'm too frustrated to tackle anything right now.

Why is isometric so unacceptable? Because it doesn't feature the retarded twirling around of NWN and KotOR? It doesn't incorporate the incredible limitation of first person of being limited by 45 degrees and having to twist around like a retarded top every other screen to take in everything? One kind of games I HATED from the old games was the rat-in-a-maze games. Namely but not limited to: Eye of the Beholder, Shining in the Darkness and Shadowkeep.
Commodity and physical stress when I play my games is something I take seriously. Getting nauseous while playing shouldn't be part of the experience.

 

[Macaco]

This thread already turned into people analyzing the semantics of each other posts looking for any flaw to bash. I think the most important thing to be said about the game systems was that while special was far from perfect, with some skills and perks being just about useless while others could just about carry you all the way throught the game, it was MUCH better than morrowinds system, wich allowed you to level up by duct taping one button, leaving the pc and going to sleep.

(i had a friend who did that to level up a character by duct taping control to sneak and leaving the character behind some generic npc a whole night, anyone could actually have a maxed sneaking skill before even fighting anything)

 

[SkynetV4]

You found another example of why skill use shouldn't be the basis of experience gain.

 

[Koki]

morrowinds system, wich allowed you to level up by duct taping one button, leaving the pc and going to sleep

I suddenly remembered Dungeon Master... your skills depended only on your fingers

 

[Bradylama]

You found another example of why skill use shouldn't be the basis of experience gain.

Didn't Fallout use skill as the basis of experience? Every piece of experience gained when not accomplished through quest completion was due to the succesful use of a skill.

That's a horribly blanket statement. =/

Also, what praytell is so retarded about having a rotating camera?

You are right about the mouse-in-a-maze games though. Those were so annoying. Especially since most of them didn't have any means of navigation. You'd spend half the game backtracking and getting literally lost in dungeons.

EDIT: Just because Morrowind's system was exploitable doesn't mean that you should. And besides training your combat skills would take at least an entire day's worth of training. I doubt anybody has the attention span to stand around the swamp for three days wacking mudcrabs.

 

[Roshambo]

IAmJeff, last warning. Either educate yourself or I can make sure you have no option but to share your ignorance elsewhere. This level of ignorance can only be on purpose.

The SPECIAL system and TES' character system are not close by any means. So a CRPG uses a stat system, big deal. SPECIAL is different from TES' in terms of mechanics. I don't give a shit if one has Perception and the other has Speed. It's irrelevant aside from pointing out how different they are, since speed calculations and the entire fucking SPECIAL system, the character system, are completely different than in TES. I do not need you to try and post something you consider to be "teh master programming example" of it because I don't want to read the sloppy code by some ignorant kid who can't even tell what color socks he has in, to use a metaphor in the discussion.

And by substats you would mean skills, like lockpicking? I have mentioned that in the few posts in the particular topic. Both have them and both, and I believe, are tied to an attribute.

No, by sub-stats, I mean the sub-stats in Fallout. Thank you AGAIN for proving you don't know a damn thing about Fallout's character system and you have no integrity by bullshitting your lies to us. Either that, and like a stupid chimp, you're looking at "stats" and "skills", seeing that both have each, and went for either some crack induced conclusion or you really are that Neanderthal.

Well I would say they are all similar, because to my knowledge they are all using D&D as a base (heck isn't every RPG derived from D&D?).

More ignorance and trolling.

I think in my first post I tried to create simularities between Morrowind and Fallout 1/2 to show Bethesda is capable of doing it.

Poorly, and that is being nice about it. To say that you are uneducated and probably couldn't tell the differences between an RT and a TB character system would be an understatement.

All you're doing is to ensure that Fallout's design goes the same way as other games, to make it trendy and without any fucking clue as to what comprises game design. Well, when people wonder why there's only cloned shit around, as there's been gripes in the past, you can pat yourself on the back for being a total bumblefuck. Well, that is if anyone was stupid enough to give you any credibility.

First-person or Tomb Raider view isn't the way of the future, nor is it a way to make the game any "prettier". In fact it detracts from the setting because of issues I've mentioned previously, namely that it is integral to the style of the game. Changing that would be akin to making another Ultima 8. True, 3D is a given, but good isometric can be done, as your ignorance has missed. People have even said the example of a good game in such a view, but you're too enmeshed into ignorance to care.

Jeff, I am giving you only one last warning. Drop the bullshit. We've already debunked your idiocy, many times over in fact. You can either bother to read what has been written before and then decide to post when you have a clue, or I can help you in your education.

Folks, if I seem rude, it's because I now have to deal with this ignorance on a frequent basis.

 

[EyeMaster7]

Where are the screenshots???

No screenshots?? What??? It's still in the pre-production stage? They are just talking about it???


So why all this fuss about it? Calm down people. Read what is written on their site before making stupid statements.

My opinion about fallout 3 is baboo's avatar.