Fallout 4 is not "Skyrim with guns."

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by Thebakedpotato, Dec 9, 2015.

  1. Thebakedpotato

    Thebakedpotato First time out of the vault

    9
    Nov 26, 2015
    I feel that this is an unfair statement. Skyrim felt like an interactive world. With consistent lore and logic to it. Varying communities with unique characters and intriguing factions that you guided and shaped. You felt like you had a stake in Skyrim. It had a rather clever leveling system where each play style was viable. Want to sneak around and avoid conflict? That'll grant you XP. Want to be a silver tongued diplomat? That'd grant you XP.
    Fallout 4 is less than Skyrim with guns.
    Want XP? Kill people. Yeah we through in some speech checks. But killing people's gonna be your go to. Sneaky type eh? Well I hope you like sneaking up on people and then killing them, because avoiding them entirely means you're losing XP.
    Want to interact with the world? Hope you enjoy building same-y settlements with cuttout nameless npcs with no soul or story to them. Unless their story is "I am a farmer. Raiders kidnapped my family."
    Want a sidequest? Well unlike Skyrim, where even the blandest of fetch quest had some sort of urgency placed on it with the story, you have go to x, kill y. Enjoy.

    I wouldn't mind if Fallout 4 was Skyrim with guns. Hell, I would -love- it. It would have been exactly what I expected. And I was excited to play that. Fallout 4 is Skyrim with guns if they neutered Skyrim, chopped off its hand. And replaced both with escargot forks.
     
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  2. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Fallout 4 is Destiny with worse graphics and uglier art direction.
     
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  3. Irwin John Finster

    Irwin John Finster Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 13, 2015
    Fallout 4 is the natural progression of Skyrim. I easily predicted Fallout 4's shallowness based on Skyrim. Skyrim had very little dialogue choice - all answers basically "yes," the lore contradicted itself, and after you finish the main quest those farts in the mountain still ask you if you are going to be a bad guy or a good guy. The number of quests that defaulted to dungeon crawling was quite high, and the "puzzles" had their answers directly above them.

    The highlights of Skyrim are watching modders make the game look pretty for screenshots. I know more people modding Skyrim for this purpose than actually playing the game itself.

    Not to mention Skyrim began the grand tradition of making your character the Head of basically every guild/group in the game at the same time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
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  4. MercenarySnake

    MercenarySnake Kept you waiting huh?

    Aug 22, 2015
    Yeah Skyrim didn't make me feel like I accomplished anything, everybody still talks to you like a bum off the street despite being the head of every faction and the "legendary Dragonborn". Interesting NPCs? Don't remember any besides the ones that kept repeating the same lines over and over like "I work for Belethor, at the general goods store". Speech? That was the most useless tree of all the perks. Fallout 4 has the shallowness of Skyrim and then some.
     
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  5. Irwin John Finster

    Irwin John Finster Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 13, 2015
    Skyrim started the tradition of making the player character the head of every possible guild and group in the game. I was made head of Mages Guild after a few quests. Fallout 4 took it further and made me General of the Minutemen after 0 quests.
     
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  6. MercenarySnake

    MercenarySnake Kept you waiting huh?

    Aug 22, 2015
    You only needed a starter spell to demonstrate you could do magic or burp a shout in the face of that Mage that lets you in. You only needed ONE spell to become the leader of that college, can you imagine what the others there say?
    This is Skyrim logic in a nutshell:
    "Uh yeah that old wizard with all that knowledge of magic? Nah let's give it to the new guy that only knows one spell!".
     
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  7. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    That is objectively false. You had to have
    -Either the appropriate apprentice level spell needed to pass the entry test, or the ability to shout.
    -The ability to cast the ward used during your first classes.
    -Frost and fire spells to attune the magic crystal thing, and open doors in Labyrinthian.
    You had to have at least 4 spells actually.

    Also, its made explicitly clear that the Arch-Mage of the College isn't the one most magically capable, but the one who is most easy to get all the political shit, like talking with the Jarl done, and no one wants that job.

    Both Oblivion and Morrowind before it allowed the same actually.
     
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  8. joevonzombie

    joevonzombie Buried alive in Golgotha

    595
    Sep 28, 2015

    I was gonna say Borderlands.
     
  9. MercenarySnake

    MercenarySnake Kept you waiting huh?

    Aug 22, 2015
    Uh I'm pretty sure you can use the fire staff and ice staff for that. Arch Mage is a title for a reason and not some title to be thrown around for "just politics", it's there for someone that has mastered magic among other things. You think they should give that title to any rookie off the street instead of that older wizard dedicated to the arts of magic? Look I haven't played it in forever so I can't remember everything and I'm not going to waste my breath arguing some in depth crap about an awful game I don't give a shit about okay? Sorry if I sound like a dick.
     
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  10. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    To be a nitpick, in Morrowind there are some factions you can NOT reach the top of.
    Well, game-play wise, you reach a top in the sense that you can't advance any further, but lore-wise, you are informed that you are not at the top

    The Blades only promotes you to the local leader - not even of Morrowind, but of Vvardenfell
    The Ashlanders only ever promotes you to "clan friend"
    Then there's the Cammona Tong and the East Empire Company which are unjoinable (even in Solstheim you are only joining a local faction, and there too you can only be promoted so far)

    Also the Imperial Cult only promotes you so-far-but-no-further.

    There's more ranks for all of them, that are never granted to the player, but exist in the game, and you can use console commands to max out your rank in these factions.

    I liked this. It showed that the world continues beyond the players scope, and that he/she is simply not "predestined" to rule and unite everyone and everything, even if they have a very important role to play in the given game world.

    Most of all, I agree with the lost sense of progression -
    Morrowind, if you are a fighting man/stealth boy, you will have a near-impossible time trying to reach the top of the Mages Guild
    Oblivion, no problem, you can become Arch Mage of the capital of Tamriel - while knowing nothing about magic. Nothing whatsoever. Zero. Zip. Cazmulazunga.
    Skyrim, at least you have to be able to cast ONE spell, but in return, you only have to do half the ammount of quests, or less, that orb quest.
    Fallout 4, accept the gifts they bestow upon you, wether you want to or not, and they name you General. Maxed out! *GRATIFICATION!!!*
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
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  11. BairdEC

    BairdEC It Wandered In From the Wastes

    146
    Jun 21, 2015
    Skyrim also has a skill system. FO4 has skills only if you consider the perks to be skills (which a few do function as).
     
  12. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Worst part is that Fo4 will bestow gifts upon you while ignoring everything about your character. Even if you have Nuclear Physisist, Science!,Hacker and high intelligence the game will still tell you that you are not a scientist while also making you the leader of the Institute..... It actively talks you down while giving you chocolates, like a condescending grandmother to her special needs grandson.
     
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  13. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    Sure, but every game has that. You can't join the Order of the Black Wurm in Oblivion, or the Silver Hand, or Summerset Shadows, in Skyrim.

    And then when it comes to things like the Companions, you are explicitly told the Harbinger is not the actual leader of the companions, just an adviser of sorts.

    You can get nitpicky and shit and find the same things in all these games.

    Sure, unless you picked up any of the 5 million highly valuable items the game shoves down your throat. At which point you can just pay trainers to max all your skills for you.

    You basically had to avoid the game itself to not run into this situation. Trainers were everywhere, and money was just as easy to come by as it is later games, and Morrowind didn't even have the "5 skill trains per level" limit that Skyrim has, making it even easier to exploit.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  14. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    I specifically mentioned factions that "leave you hanging" half way through the progression. This is much more generous in later games. I did add that it was a "nitpick", so for you to respond as if you have no idea what I'm talking about makes you a nitpicker of nitpickery.

    Have you actually tried?
    Because I have.

    If you only do combat - you are not going to be able to raise the primary stats high enough, and you cannot train skills above certain primary stats.

    Ergo...

    If you are a fighting man/stealth boy, you will have a near-impossible time trying to reach the top of the Mages Guild
     
  15. r0b0wnz

    r0b0wnz First time out of the vault

    78
    Nov 17, 2015
    not even, dunno y ppl say its like borderlands. That game was real fun and I got what I expected with shittons of replayability with friends. its kinda funny i saw how many gigs destiny was when downloading and said "uh fuck this game if prob gunna suck" i also said the same thing for f4 and what do ya know...
     
  16. PossibleCabbage

    PossibleCabbage Vault 22 Survivor

    889
    Jul 2, 2015
    Yeah, Skyrim has terrible combat whereas Fallout 4's combat is at least acceptable. Skyrim does, however, allow for (very) light roleplaying that's more or less impossible in Fallout 4.
     
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  17. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    It was less egregious in Morrowind because you needed to prove your skills.

    In Skyrim, a Shout, a basic Ward spell and using 2 staves are all you require to become Arch-Mage. They then say the position is for politics, well sure, but you never actually do any of that. Like, say, speaking to the Jarl of Winterhold to amend relations between his town and the College. And that old man still wants you to find his alambic. Apart from giving you spiffy new quarters, the game just doesn't act like you're Arch-Mage at all, and that's true for the rest of the positions. Even after being Harbinger that guard still asks me if I fetch the mead.

    Doesn't help that Bethesda recycles the Chosen One shtick four freaking times. Not only are you the Legendary Dragonborn as the game ceaslessly reminds you, but the current Harbinger foresaw your coming, the Psijic order chose to speak to you, and the Night Mother chooses you as her Listener. It's like all the major factions of Skyrim were just waiting for destiny to dump a hero in their lap and solve all their problems.

    Similarily, you're the Minutemen's general instantly but not a lot of people actually act with any sort of deference towards you. Well, I guess it's also because there's a grand total of 2 named Minutemen NPCs in the game that I found, but still.
     
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  18. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish ...The pain of being dead...

    Sep 11, 2010
    Uh... My experience from Skyrim was dungeon dungeon dungeon, fetch quest fetch quest fetch quest, cardboard cutout NPC cardboard cutout NPC cardboard cutout NPC. Repetitious. Seriously. Skyrim was awful and I can't see how anyone would compliment it. It had the same enemies all over the world that was littered with dungeons, some of which are literally a hundred meters from one another, and the vast VAST majority of quests just sent you to either kill X or fetch Y in some dungeon. Didn't help that everyone and their dog shared the same voice actor but if they had at least made the NPC's a bit more interesting then exploring the civilized communities would've been ok. Sadly, most characters have one personality trait (if even that) and that's it. There's barely any dialogue or involvement to make them interesting. And what else is there really to it?

    What else is there to Skyrim but generic cardboard cutout characters, repetitious combat and dungeon-palooza? Crafting? Give me a break, you craft the best weapon and give it the best enchantment through its poorly balanced system and you never have to bother with it again. Any crafting prior to that has just been to level up your skill. Basically, crafting iron daggers over and over again. Yeah, great crafting system. So what else is there? Oh you can cut wood for a few gold coins? Well whoop di fucking doo! It's not like dungeons drop enchanted weapons which sell for 10 times more, sometimes 100 times more. And it's not like gold itself becomes useless at some point because the game just "rewards" you with stuff every time you trip over a rock. What else? Explore? Well congrats, you found 'yet another' god damn draughr dungeon. Have fun fighting the exact same enemies using the exact same tactics for pretty much the exact same loot for the umpteenth fucking time. On that note, the combat is boring as shit. If you play as a sneaky sneaky character and you rely on stealth kills then the game fucks you over by replacing everyone with damage sponges if you level up too much. If you play as a melee character then you'll end up using the same attack patterns for like 100 hours. It's about as much fun as washing a cup in the kitchen sink for 5 hours straight. So then we got quests which are linear, sure there are some exceptions but the exception does not make the rule. Dialogue options are also limited and most of the dialogue is just accepting quests or asking questions (There ain't a whole lot of dialogue to give the PC a sense of personality, you't just the straight guy running around being boring).

    Fallout 4 is Skyrim With Guns. But yknow what, even Fallout 4 looks like it is 'way' more fun than the repetitious slog that is Skyrim. At least in Fallout 4 it looks like the combat is varied. At least it looks like characters are more interesting in their own cartoonishly stupid kinda way. At least the crafting system looks like it has variation to it other than just +1'ing a weapon. At least the locations look more interesting than just woods, tundra, ice, repeat.

    Let me put it like this, if I were to judge Skyrim as an RPG then I'd consider it a bad game. If I were to judge it as a hiking simulator, I would consider it a bad game. If I were to judge it as a hack and slash game, I would consider it a bad game. If I were to consider it an "immersion-experience" then I would consider it a bad game.

    I consider Skyrim to be a bad game in every single aspect. I can't find a single redeemable thing in it.

    Fallout 4 is Skyrim With Guns, I guess what makes some parts of Fallout 4 a bit more redeemable on their own merits is the "with guns" part.


    [edit]

    Yknow what, I'm not done yet. The perk system is dumb. In order to get the more interesting perks you have to waste perks on pre-requisite perks first. Which means that character building is almost linear. Sure, some perk trees branches, but the branching is usually meaningless or it just branches off once. Do you wanna smith light or heavy armor? Do you want to focus on blade, blunt or axe?

    The character leveling system is also dumb. Yeah it makes sense that if you use X then you'll get better at it but all that means is a shit ton of grinding or exploiting skill upgrade NPC's. It took me around 80 hours for my Archer to get the archery skill to 100 and for my warrior to get his two-hand skill up to 100. The problem with a "learn by doing" system is that some skills aren't used as often as other skills, so some skills are a pain in the ass to develop whereas others can be leveled up real easy. There isn't a good balance for a system like this. Some skills will be tedious to level up, some will level up way too easily and some you'll struggle to level up at all. (Speechcraft, anyone?) Learn by doing is something that sounds good in theory but will not turn out well if you try to implement it.

    Traps are re-used constantly. And not just what the traps 'do' but the very trap-plate itself. Think about how many locations has the exact same trap-plate you trigger by walking across it. Was it too difficult for Bethesda to create at least a dozen different trap-plates? Once you memorize the plate it becomes real easy to spot and at that point traps have become trivialized.

    Speech is given as an option to solve things but how often do you really get to use it? The only moment I remember is once during the Warrior guild questline and once to get inside Whiterun. I can't remember a whole lot of other times when it was used. I'm not saying that it is 'never' used, what I am saying is that I shouldn't struggle with trying to remember speech checks in a game I've wasted 240 hours in.

    Kill a chicken, get a bounty. Dumb.

    Most NPC's with quests tied to them are tagged as essential until you complete the quests. Hell, even after I became the leader of the Warriors I went into their guild house and tried to kill everyone, half at the very least were still tagged as essential.

    You become leader of factions even if you aren't even remotely close to what would be expected out of a leader of said faction. You can become a leader of the magic college even if you barely know any magic. You can become leader of the warrior guild even if you can barely swing a hammer.

    IIRC you can give away your soul to two daedra princes, and if you want to complete the quests they are tied to then you 'have to' give away your soul. What the fuck kinda design is this for an RPG!?

    Oh and lycantrophy(?) is forced on your if you want to continue the Warrior quest line.

    The Dragon Claw puzzle feels like Bethesda is treating me like a retard.

    The waves on water looks weird. Instead of going into the direction the stream is going it all goes towards a universal direction at all times.

    The jumping mechanic is still weird. I can't explain it, it's just really damn weird. It's like they get stuck on something and sometimes they'll stumble forward weirdly.

    Also, doesn't the skills themselves do bugger all in Skyrim? Isn't it the perks that have an impact and the skill number just unlocks perks? Sounds like Fallout 4's SPECIAL and perk system to me.

    I'll stop now for realsies. Man, I can't stand Skyrim.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
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  19. Theinnerfish

    Theinnerfish Storytelling skeleton

    239
    Jul 25, 2015
    I always felt like Fallout 3 was a Fallout game. It was a badly written Fallout game with horrible dialogs but a Fallout nonetheless

    Multi-choice quests? Check. Being able to avoid violence? Check. Becoming an evil f**k? Check. SPECIAL, perks, skills? Check.

    Now Fallout 4:

    Randomly generated fetch this, massacre these quests? Check. Only perks? Check. Minus evil options, minus skills. Yeah Fallout 4 is a worse rpg than Skyrim. How was that even possible i don't know.
     
  20. khain

    khain [X] Sarcastic

    145
    Dec 3, 2015
    I enjoyed Skyrim a lot more than FO4, because it felt like less of a waste.

    No matter how deep, rich and complex the Elder Scrolls lore is, it remains for the most part bog standard med fan stuff. You're a chosen one, there be dragons, there be magic... Morrowind was a great game, but it already wasn't that fantastic as an RPG. Sure, the choices and consequences mattered a lot more, but I never really felt like I was playing a specific character with a unique personality, and the dialogue system wasn't that wonderful either. It's still my favourite entry in the series, by a mile and a half.

    Then comes Skyrim. It's dumbed down, it's even less of an RPG. But I still get a bit of diversity (heavy warrior, nimble dual wielding one, elemental mage, summoner, assassin...) which gives me some replayability, and because of the med fan setting I'm ok to let go and get on with the ride. Would I prefer a complex RPG, Planescape-like? You bet I would. But hey, I managed to adapt to ES becoming about dungeon crawling. The same way that, in a tabletop session, I'm ok going back to some basic Gygax-style stuff rather than the complex intrigues I normally take part in.

    I can't, however, adapt to FO becoming an FPS. In that case, we go from somewhere that had meaning, that had interesting views on morality, to something simplified to the extreme. Fallout had a lot more to lose than the Elder Scrolls series, and in the latest installment, it's lost most of it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
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