Fallout 4: The Nature of Generic Bad Dudes

[BigGuyCIA]

1. Because most raiders have no long term planning, and get destroyed by other raider clans, or by internal fighting. It takes someone smart, and with a very rare type of charisma, to be able to get a whole bunch of raider clans to come together, and not have the whole thing shit itself. Also, if raiders stopped shooting at people on sight, then they wouldn't really be raiders anymore. The whole point of raiders is that they kill everyone who isn't them, and take their stuff. Its exactly like the Fiends, Vipers, and Jackals in New Vegas. The only people raiders have any reason to not shoot are people who deliver drugs, like how the Fiends work with the Khans, and how the raiders work with the Triggermen.

No, it's not. Plenty of raider types prefer to take shit without wasting bullets, or getting paid to not raid and maraud local settlements. It's win-win for them. Unless they're complete, edgy sociopaths like the Disciples, they don't particularly care how they get their supplies, so long as they get them in the end.

That the majority of raider factions in Fallout 3/4 are comically evil and kill on sight speaks to the integrity of the writer.

The fiends at least had an excuse for being kill on sight types, they're so coked up on drugs that they'll rape, murder, and pillage just about everyone. The Khans / Powder Gangers were raider-type tribes, but they at least had some personality to them that existed beyond just shooting everything in sight.

2. TBH, I find it more disgraceful to Marcus that you consider him human after everything he is been through. Your entire line of thought is dumbing Super Mutants down, and reducing them to nothing more then a thin expy of modern day racism. By your logic, why even bother having super mutants in the first place when you can just make everyone racist to black or asian people, or non-feral ghouls, and get the same result. Since apparently everything about getting infected by a super virus, and having your very DNA changed into something new, seemingly doesn't matter, or effect what you are.

Because it is an expy of inner/outer tribalism. Nobody is saying that Marcus is human, just that he portrays very human qualities - gee whiz almost as if he was human at one point in his life, and that even in his altered state he's not so different from you and I.

3. Except orcs are pretty smart, both in Warcraft, and TES, Orcs have a very developed culture. Your entire argument that all super mutants everywhere have to be exactly the same everywhere is also pretty terrible. Its on par with saying that all BoS everywhere have to be exactly the same as the West Coast chapters, and none of them can think to try anything new. Its entirely boring, and leads to nothing but series stagnation. It also doesn't make any sense because, as you so like to say, not everyone is the same. There are groups of people hostile to everyone else IRL, just like there are groups of people who want to deal with everyone else IRL.

Fallout 1 was an exploration of how an army of Super Mutants were brainwashed into idolizing a big blob of goo. They weren't exactly smart, but they weren't degenerate retards either. They had the brain capacity of a child soldier.

Fallout 2 explored how Super Mutants fit into society following the aftermath of Fallout 1.

Fallout New Vegas further explored this topic by having Mutants in a limited capacity, but showed them in a more established state where Jacob had helped build a refuge for Super Mutants shunned by human society.

Fallout 3 explores how Super Mutants are a freak experiment that have no motivation outside of finding more humans, and making more Super Mutants (or just eating the captives). Overall, they act like a bunch of neanderthals that were shoehorned into Fallout 3 for nostalgia factor. "Look guys we get Fallout! See, Sup3r Mvtant$!!!111!!!!

Fallout 4 explores how Super Mutants are a freak experiment that have no motivation outside of just destroying the Commonwealth because some scientists did some bad things to them. Basically, they're just 40k Orks intended for the player to duke it out with.

1, 2 and NV at least tried to push the lore with Super Mutants. It developed the lore and actually showed some procedural story-growth. Bethesda bastardized the concept by just portraying them as dumb retards that are better served as bullet sponges for the player-character to shoot at. There's no attempt to explore a Super Mutant colony that's essentially non-hostile.

10. Apparently so. Replacing people isn't that common, the whole narrative point of the wastelanders paranoia was that they are making things up, and seeing stuff that isn't there, and that 90% of the things they believe The Institute is doing aren't actually happening. Though there are a few times when one of the few Institute replacements do get caught, such as the guy in Goodneighbor who gets killed when you go there.

This smells like bullshit. That the Wastelanders were paranoid and making false accusations was incidental to the fact that there was a constant air of paranoia and fear. That 1 guy got kidnapped and replaced in Goodneighbor is just another feather in the cap. It's compounded on by shit like the Broken Mask incident and the collapse of the CPG. It's bad enough that you have an entire settlement of people randomly capturing caravaneers and torturing them.

11. Except the BoS have no intent to purge everything that isn't human. The only things they purge are feral ghouls, supermutants, and synths. The first two are nothing but hostile to everyone that isn't them. And their hatred of synths is justified given how synths are used. The BoS has no problem with non-feral ghouls, and takes no action against them, because they can exist as part of normal cooperative society. Danse even commends the ghouls at The Slog, and Teagan, can ask you to make a deal with them for supplies. Even after the BoS can take over Mass Fusion, which is a stones throw from Goodneighbor, but take no action against the non-ferals there.

Teagan's quest doesn't count because it's essentially a radiant quest that spams repeat dialogue. There's no mention of the inhabitants, just that you go and strike a deal with the settlement. Plus, you're basically extorting the settlement for food and supplies. Not exactly a case of wearing your heart on your sleeve.

The BoS does have an issue with non-feral ghouls, though. Did you forget the whole bit with Lyon's "white-knights" taking pot shots at Ghouls at Underworld? Something tells me that attitude hasn't changed much with the more xenophobic version of the BoS in 4.

That they don't take action against non-ferals is more to do with the fact that the Ghouls keep to themselves and don't fuck around with other people. The BoS in 4 are inconsistent as fuck anyways. They are a stones-throw away from Libertalia, an established Raider safe-haven, and yet make no effort to clear them out.

 

[DR_LaZer]

Because thats the sort of things series operate on? Like, imagine any other series, like Metal Gear, but you remove Snake, Metal Gears, any of the established characters/factions... at that point what makes it a metal gear game. I don't understand this bizarre logic of yours.

Shit like this. Spoilers:


A story that makes you think. Amazing characters with a great story. You don't need Snake or a Metal Gear to make it a Metal Gear game. you don't even need stealth gameplay. The entire draw of Metal Gear and the biggest part everyone loves about it is its amazing story. Without a story and just pure gameplay.... you get shit like Metal Gear Survive. Which is not a Metal Gear game.

The NCR, Super Mutants, Brotherhood of Steel, every faction in the west is not needed for the story of the east. Because why would the east be affected by the west? The east, by all logic, should be like getting a new kind of Fallout 1. Where we see another start of an amazing society. A new kind of NCR. A new kind of Master. But instead it's all the same over and over and over and over again.

6. OFC they attack on sight, for the same reason they do in Fo3/4. They have no reason not too.

But they don't have a reason to do it in the first place. The lack of a reason is not a reason.

 

[Beeooow]

Khans are not raiders, they are tribals. Big difference at a fundamental level in terms of culture.
...
Because being raiders is a lifestyle. Powder Gangers are only doing what they are for the moment.

Alright! Someone doesn't understand that civilizations can have raiders and raid, not just BE raiders!

...Marcus/Jacobstown being in NV. It was entirely pointless, and added nothing to the super mutant plot besides a mindless rehash of Fallout 2's Broken Hills.

Actually, Jacobstown was a follow up to the existence of Super Mutants. Yes, there's the 'cliche' use of species-ism, but that is the logical conclusion to the post-Master civil Supermutants. Moreover, Jacobstown is more about how a civil Super Mutant settlement interacts with post-apocalypse governments, or on a smaller scale, how even THEY can be divided on the issue of how to interact with the world. At least, that was my interpretation.

Super Mutants being nothing but reskinned humans makes them boring because theres nothing unique about them besides their now utterly superficial appearance. They are JUST people, and Ive already talked to a lot of JUST people in all other parts of the games. Super Mutants should be different, or else there is no reason to have them be super mutants in the first place beyond an easy out to use the racism card.

So how a Mutated society works isn't interesting? How Super Mutants and Humans interact despite the HUGE differences and resentment between them isn't interesting? The attempts to help deal with Super Mutant issues and the conflicts that arise, ie, the whole F:NV Nightkin subplot? How Marcus, at least in Fallout 2, still holds onto the Master's ideals despite being peaceful isn't interesting in the slightest?

Because thats the sort of things series operate on? Like, imagine any other series, like Metal Gear, but you remove Snake, Metal Gears, any of the established characters/factions... at that point what makes it a metal gear game. I don't understand this bizarre logic of yours.

First off, someone's never played Metal Gear before.
Second, shoehorning in a character(type) for the sake of brand is bad progression, especially with characters that have no reason to continue to exist.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

1. And the easiest way to raid someone is to simply kill them and take their stuff.

Not everyone will fight or resist, there's no sense in killing someone who has surrendered.

2. Khans are not raiders, they are tribals. Big difference at a fundamental level in terms of culture.

Raiding and tribalism are not mutually exclusive. The Khans are raiders, they kept attacking NCR citizens and eventually the NCR fought back, leading to the Bitter Springs Massacre.

3. OFC most raiders are similar. They are raiders. People who decide they don't want to work and instead go out and steal stuff from other people. They aren't based on any sort of cultist culture, or pre-war organization, like the Khans are. They are otherwise normal people. They would dress basically the same because that is what is easy to get. They aren't an organization, they don't need stylized uniforms. Only the rare raider group like the Forged, the Rust Devils, or the Nuka World raider clans would logically be that individualized. And those would logically be the minority groups because those are groups based on a specific culture or cultist mentality, rather then just being humans who don't want to work for a living.

So they all just happen to wear leather armour and speak in the same way? I'm not saying they need to wear uniforms, they need some differences though. For example, one raider group might just rob people but let them live, another group might actually be trying to keep a settlement going.

To suggest all raiders do what they do because they don't want to work is ridiculous.

4. Did you forget that by the time of New Vegas that stuff is like 80+ years old, and basically no one from then is alive anymore? By the time of NV, people pick on them simply for being different. Aka, generic racism. Which is also why I hated Marcus/Jacobstown being in NV. It was entirely pointless, and added nothing to the super mutant plot besides a mindless rehash of Fallout 2's Broken Hills.

Oh yes of course I forgot, hence "Most people wouldn't have been around back then but it left a huge impact on history."

5. Yes? To be perfectly honest, I find talking to Strong more interesting then talking to Marcus in NV. Specifically because most super mutants do nothing but attack you on sight. It's interesting to find the outcast who can tell about the "other" culture you otherwise wouldn't be able to interact with.

Super Mutants being nothing but reskinned humans makes them boring because theres nothing unique about them besides their now utterly superficial appearance. They are JUST people, and Ive already talked to a lot of JUST people in all other parts of the games. Super Mutants should be different, or else there is no reason to have them be super mutants in the first place beyond an easy out to use the racism card.

Different =/= Devoid of character

 

[Greed]

Do you understand now sonny? SOME raider clans would turn into settled raiders.

And like I said before, we already got that, in Nuka World.

It's bad enough to think of it with the games already existing size, but when you take into account your whole logic of everything being scaled down, then it's even more unbelievable.

You are aware that the real world area of Fallout 4's game map is so small you could drop it into metropolitan LA, and still have room left over in LA right? Its like 25 miles across.

You seem to think its like, the same size as Fallout 1's map or something. It's not.

What do you think I am, some kind of clown?

By the arguments you have made thus far. yes.

Anyways super mutants have their own opes, dreams, wishes, thoughts and emotions. You seem to think having those somehow would magically make them automatically want to interact with everyone else, they do not. All you have to do is look at any number of real world civilizations whose only desire was to kill everyone around them. By our logic, terrorists would stop doing what they are doing, and sit down with all the nations of the world, and make nice. That isn't how the world worlds, at all. And I don't know why you think it would.

OK with new ANYTHING as long as it's written well and I can actually talk to them in some form or fashion.

So basically you don't care about any sort of actual logic behind the faction, you just want everything in the game to exist for you to talk too?

What a terribly boring and unrealistic world that would be.

Also, how can they accept bribes when all they do is raid and shoot people?

Same way Gunners accept contractions, same way the Triggermen do drug deals, same way the real world mob made contracts, same way all real world organizations work. They met at an established neutral grounds, and not their base, since only an idiot would do a deal, or let a deal be done, at one of the two parties home bases.

they are attacking the front gates of Diamond City

Except they aren't attacking the front gate. the attack happens on one of the sides.

Like, seriously. I mean, this is a video game. Where the lore should match the gameplay.

Except no game has, or ever will, work that way. No FPS, RTS, Racier, fighting game, RPG, has lore matching mechanics. Ryu does not do up down up up left right to throw a fucking hadoken.

Well, what's so different between them?

Constant growth makes thm bigger, stronger, and harder to kill every second they are alive, eventually reaching the point they become behemoths. MAriposa super mutants change, and stay that way forever. East Coast muties never stop getting stronger.

Are you implying that the super smart science people can't make an electric chair. Or a fire pit hot enough to burn a person to ashes. Or have an industrial saw? The same people who created human and gorilla life can't make a large arc furnace?

They could, buy why would they when they can just teleport them out?

A synth is a synth is a synth. All must be purged. Same for super mutants.

OFC they should be. Did you miss The Calculator? Did you forget John Henry Eden? Hell, even smaller examples like Tobobrains show that machine intelligence is fundamentally destructive. Its almost like the BoS has objective facts(within the context of the unvierse) that proves them right, unlike the petty racism of the Enclave. Not to mention we learn in Far Harbor that DiMA had been killing peopleand replacing them als... the very thing the BoS feared would happen.

A flaw is... a broken political system.

Now THAT is a trait.

 

[Greed]

Shit like this. Spoilers:
A story that makes you think. Amazing characters with a great story. You don't need Snake or a Metal Gear to make it a Metal Gear game. you don't even need stealth gameplay. The entire draw of Metal Gear and the biggest part everyone loves about it is its amazing story. Without a story and just pure gameplay.... you get shit like Metal Gear Survive. Which is not a Metal Gear game.

The NCR, Super Mutants, Brotherhood of Steel, every faction in the west is not needed for the story of the east. Because why would the east be affected by the west? The east, by all logic, should be like getting a new kind of Fallout 1. Where we see another start of an amazing society. A new kind of NCR. A new kind of Master. But instead it's all the same over and over and over and over again.

But they don't have a reason to do it in the first place. The lack of a reason is not a reason.

Wait, are you ACTUALLY implying Metal Gear has a good story, characters, and makes you think?

No one plays Metal Gear for the story, because the story is 100% pure, Grade A garbage, full of cliche conspiracy theories, NANOMACHINES!, and every dumb cliche about the corrupting power of technology, that only get progressively more stupid every new game in the series. Nothing Metal Gear does is remotely original or thought provoking. Even some of the most hardcore MGS fans only play it for the gameplay, because the gameplay is the best part of it. What world do you come from where people care about the story of Metal Gear?

By that logic we should have seen a new kind of NCR in the four states areal ong before Caesar came. We did not. Development is not linear you twit.

They do have a reason though, food, revenge, and general egotistim stemming from their physical superiority. The strong have always attempted to dominate or destroy the weak. That is nature.

 

[Beeooow]

Anyways super mutants have their own [hopes], dreams, wishes, thoughts and emotions. You seem to think having those somehow would magically make them automatically want to interact with everyone else, they do not. All you have to do is look at any number of real world civilizations whose only desire was to kill everyone around them. By our logic, terrorists would stop doing what they are doing, and sit down with all the nations of the world, and make nice. That isn't how the world worlds, at all. And I don't know why you think it would.

...The argument isn't that Super Mutants MUST be peaceful, but that they have the capacity to be peaceful. After all, actual terrorists have the capacity to be peaceful, there's just a fuck ton of reasons they aren't.

So basically you don't care about any sort of actual logic behind the faction, you just want everything in the game to exist for you to talk too?

What a terribly boring and unrealistic world that would be.

Saying that Lazer wants a lack of logic behind factions is the opposite of the entire arguments. The whole point is logic.

Same way Gunners accept contractions...

I'm not making a rebuttal here, I just love that typo.

Except no game has, or ever will, work that way. No FPS, RTS, Racier, fighting game, RPG, has lore matching mechanics. Ryu does not do up down up up left right to throw a fucking hadoken.

Boy, you'd trigger the hell out of the ARMA players.
And lore matching gameplay doesn't necessarily mean 1-1 perfect simulation, just that the gameplay should MAKE SENSE in terms of the lore. After all, if you make a description of an area that is oh so deadly, but it turns out to be unironically easy, you've fucked up.

Constant growth makes thm bigger, stronger, and harder to kill every second they are alive, eventually reaching the point they become behemoths. MAriposa super mutants change, and stay that way forever. East Coast muties never stop getting stronger.

But why tho

OFC they should be. Did you miss The Calculator? Did you forget John Henry Eden? Hell, even smaller examples like Tobobrains show that machine intelligence is fundamentally destructive. Its almost like the BoS has objective facts(within the context of the unvierse) that proves them right, unlike the petty racism of the Enclave. Not to mention we learn in Far Harbor that DiMA had been killing peopleand replacing them als... the very thing the BoS feared would happen.

"Fundamentally Destructive"
Robots told to kill will kill if they have to follow their programming.
Robots that have gone insane, like humans, can be dangerous.
I fail to see the "fundamental destructive"-ness.

 

[Greed]

...The argument isn't that Super Mutants MUST be peaceful, but that they have the capacity to be peaceful. After all, actual terrorists have the capacity to be peaceful, there's just a fuck ton of reasons they aren't.

Saying that Lazer wants a lack of logic behind factions is the opposite of the entire arguments. The whole point is logic.

Boy, you'd trigger the hell out of the ARMA players.

And lore matching gameplay doesn't necessarily mean 1-1 perfect simulation, just that the gameplay should MAKE SENSE in terms of the lore. After all, if you make a description of an area that is oh so deadly, but it turns out to be unironically easy, you've fucked up.

But why tho

Robots told to kill will kill if they have to follow their programming.

And we have seen that super mutants can be peaceful if they really want to be. They just have no reason to want to be, they have everything they think they need. Humans are just in the way.

Except its not logical for raiders, or Gunners, or super mutants to be peaceful, outside of the rare spots where they have agreed to do so. No sane person would let you just walk up to their base, because that is a basic security hazard. Any dealings would be done in places like the Third Rail in Goodneighbor, or East City Downs/The Combat Zone. Try to JUST walk onto a military base IRL. They aren't just going to stand there waving, and walk up to you, hold you hand, and sing songs with you as y'all skip down the base. They will tackle your ass and try to arrest you. If you are obviously armed, they will likely just shoot you. Hell, theres plenty of military bases in America were they will simply JUST shoot you regardless. That's just basic security 101. Letting you walk up to their base without being shot is nothing short of pure idiocy.

Triggering idiots, not exactly difficult. Go on /k/ and call a magazine a clip, they will freak out like crazy.

Isn't one of the most common complains about Fallout 4 that high end super mutants are massive bullet sponges? Seems to me that it matches just fine.

Because the V87 and Institute FEV strains are programmed that way(not intentionally though)

Except we see in Automatron that thinks like Robobrains can essentially "think" new ways to carry out their orders. Robobrains were told to help people, and then they decided to "help" people by killing them, since they were going to die anyways, helping them to their death faster was seen as the easiest way to help them.

The problem with synths is that they are faster and stronger then humans, they dont need to eat, they don't need to sleep, they never age, the are immune to radiation and most disease, and worst of all, they are completely undetectable outside of killing them and opening up their brain to look for the chip. They are like terminators, but you can't even use dogs to sniff them out. And we see in Far Harbor that DiMA has already gone full on Institute with the people of Far Harbor. They danger they pose is far beyond what any human can achieve. Hell, The Institute has given some Coursers VATs powers as well, making them even more dangerous.

 

[BigGuyCIA]

And we have seen that super mutants can be peaceful if they really want to be. They just have no reason to want to be, they have everything they think they need. Humans are just in the way.

We've seen 3 isolated, exceptions to the rule. For the most part, Bethesda feels that retarded Orks are more conducive to the sandbox shooter they're so desperately trying to sell as an RPG.

Except its not logical for raiders, or Gunners, or super mutants to be peaceful, outside of the rare spots where they have agreed to do so. No sane person would let you just walk up to their base, because that is a basic security hazard. Any dealings would be done in places like the Third Rail in Goodneighbor, or East City Downs/The Combat Zone. Try to JUST walk onto a military base IRL. They aren't just going to stand there waving, and walk up to you, hold you hand, and sing songs with you as y'all skip down the base. They will tackle your ass and try to arrest you. If you are obviously armed, they will likely just shoot you. Hell, theres plenty of military bases in America were they will simply JUST shoot you regardless. That's just basic security 101. Letting you walk up to their base without being shot is nothing short of pure idiocy.

I guess you'll have to explain why the BoS let a random non-member waltz into their base and just start looting their supply depot. Or, how the Institute basically lets you walk around their facility unhindered, despite you being a massive wild-card that has, up until that point, killed one of their Coursers, killed their top human-cyborg surface agent, and also aided the major factions that are aligned against the Institute?

You realize that it's impossible to take you seriously when you keep babbling on faction logic, when the very game you're defending seems to betray that same logic you keep clinging to.

Isn't one of the most common complains about Fallout 4 that high end super mutants are massive bullet sponges? Seems to me that it matches just fine.

That is until you start chucking mini-nukes at these bullet sponges and they soak up the damage like it's no issue.

Because the V87 and Institute FEV strains are programmed that way(not intentionally though)

Programmed... or just written by an uninspired individual that was told to shoehorn Mutants into the plot somehow? I'll let you be the judge of that, but something tells me you're quite content with contrived writing.

The problem with synths is that they are faster and stronger then humans, they dont need to eat, they don't need to sleep, they never age, the are immune to radiation and most disease, and worst of all, they are completely undetectable outside of killing them and opening up their brain to look for the chip. They are like terminators, but you can't even use dogs to sniff them out. And we see in Far Harbor that DiMA has already gone full on Institute with the people of Far Harbor. They danger they pose is far beyond what any human can achieve. Hell, The Institute has given some Coursers VATs powers as well, making them even more dangerous.

They're powerful but not immortal. The mary-sue that is the protagonist figured out a way to kill the biggest of the bunch, and even your basic Neighborhood Watchmen can gun down a synth - so much for being faster and stronger.

They also don't have the capacity to produce more of themselves, unless you side with the Institute.

 

[DR_LaZer]

You are aware that the real world area of Fallout 4's game map is so small you could drop it into metropolitan LA, and still have room left over in LA right? Its like 25 miles across.

You seem to think its like, the same size as Fallout 1's map or something. It's not.

Wait, I'm confused. First you were all like "Oh but the game is scaled down and is bigger than we see it" and I was like, OK. But that further makes the fact that everything is raiders/Hulk Raiders nonsensical. Bot now you're saying it's really small? Make up your mind!

By the arguments you have made thus far. yes.

So what? You think I'm funny just cause I talk like a clown?! I suppose you don't think I should have a gun either!

Anyways super mutants have their own opes, dreams, wishes, thoughts and emotions. You seem to think having those somehow would magically make them automatically want to interact with everyone else, they do not. All you have to do is look at any number of real world civilizations whose only desire was to kill everyone around them. By our logic, terrorists would stop doing what they are doing, and sit down with all the nations of the world, and make nice. That isn't how the world worlds, at all. And I don't know why you think it would.

It's not that they should make nice, it's that they shouldn't kill on sight without a reason! You know why the original Super Mutants killed on sight?! It's because they were told too! That's a good reason! Whatdo these jokers have? Father didin' tell them to kill everyone!

Why aren't there at least one small group of Orcs who're all like "Oh yeah, we're nice. We don't really like to kill unless threatened" I'm not asking for all sunshine and rainbows. I'm asking for at least a little bit of hesitation before indiscriminately shooting! Or maybe, a situation as to where I can NOT be shot on sight! Wouldn't that be magical!?

So basically you don't care about any sort of actual logic behind the faction, you just want everything in the game to exist for you to talk too?

What a terribly boring and unrealistic world that would be.

I mean, it's kinda hard to find the logic behind a faction when all they do no matter what under every single circumstance is shoot you! No matter what you do! You could save the entire Super Mutant race from extinction and they'd still shoot you!

And I don't know about you, but having 95% of the world populated by things that kill on sight is extremely boring to me. Even more boring when the other 5% is a buncha bland idiots.

Same way Gunners accept contractions, same way the Triggermen do drug deals, same way the real world mob made contracts, same way all real world organizations work. They met at an established neutral grounds, and not their base, since only an idiot would do a deal, or let a deal be done, at one of the two parties home bases.

But how do they establish neutral grounds if they just shoot each other? Again, no hesitation ever. No "Ey where you from ese?" "I'm from da trigga men gang! We wanna make drug deals with ya!" "OK cool!" Just shooty shoot bang bang under every single situation imaginable. At least if you're good enough you can talk to the drug crazed leader of The Fiends. And again, they cover most of the entire map. That's where the big problem arises.

Except no game has, or ever will, work that way. No FPS, RTS, Racier, fighting game, RPG, has lore matching mechanics. Ryu does not do up down up up left right to throw a fucking hadoken.

You idiot! The moves you do in fighting games are to imply you're doing a neat trick! Like you need to do a buncha special movements and attacks before using the ancient snake fang strike! You don't just use snake fang strike without doing something special! Then the 50 years it took to master it would be pointless!

Also, w-what about the original Fallouts? They did it just fine? The guys that they said were super strong were super strong. The places that they said was super radioactive was super radioactive. I'm just asking for what they say to match up with what they do.

I don't want no "I am the strongest person alive" and then kill them in one hit unless it's like a joke or intended. That's like saying that after hearing that a faction is peaceful and expecting them to NOT shoot on sight is unrealistic. Like the Bee said. Not 1 to 1, just matching up to the point where it makes sense.

Constant growth makes thm bigger, stronger, and harder to kill every second they are alive, eventually reaching the point they become behemoths. MAriposa super mutants change, and stay that way forever. East Coast muties never stop getting stronger.

Wait, wuuuuh? They have constant growth? What? When was this mentioned? Where? Source?

They could, buy why would they when they can just teleport them out?

But why Teleport them when the simpler and much more long term solution is to fucking kill them! You said it yourself that The Institute fears Orcs! By that logic instead of just dumping them on the surface they should be fucking killing them before doing it! It's so much more simple! Just dump a super mutant into a water tank a day before getting rid of them. Then on the next day they'll be dead and the end!

OFC they should be. Did you miss The Calculator? Did you forget John Henry Eden? Hell, even smaller examples like Tobobrains show that machine intelligence is fundamentally destructive. Its almost like the BoS has objective facts(within the context of the unvierse) that proves them right, unlike the petty racism of the Enclave. Not to mention we learn in Far Harbor that DiMA had been killing peopleand replacing them als... the very thing the BoS feared would happen.

What about Codsworth? Or literally every synth in the railroad? Or every not programmed to be evil bot. Robots are not inherently evil. They are inherently neutral. I've said it before, the more logical standpoint for the BoS is for them to WANT the synths just for themselves. Because they're robots and therefore high tech and all high tech belongs to the BoS. That would make sense. It would even get the synths out of the hands of the peoples who would use them for bads. But no. They gotta be dumb and be all genocidal.

By that logic we should have seen a new kind of NCR in the four states areal ong before Caesar came. We did not. Development is not linear you twit.

Oh my god. I mean we should have factions in general in the east coast! SIMILAR to the NCR, but not an exact copy! A grouping of people surviving to create a government of some kind! Natural development! It's on the other side of the country. People aren't just twiddling their thumbs while they wait for the superior west coast to come and save them.

At the very least, we should have more than absolutely nothing at all.

 

[DR_LaZer]

Except its not logical for raiders, or Gunners, or super mutants to be peaceful, outside of the rare spots where they have agreed to do so. No sane person would let you just walk up to their base, because that is a basic security hazard. Any dealings would be done in places like the Third Rail in Goodneighbor, or East City Downs/The Combat Zone. Try to JUST walk onto a military base IRL. They aren't just going to stand there waving, and walk up to you, hold you hand, and sing songs with you as y'all skip down the base. They will tackle your ass and try to arrest you. If you are obviously armed, they will likely just shoot you. Hell, theres plenty of military bases in America were they will simply JUST shoot you regardless. That's just basic security 101. Letting you walk up to their base without being shot is nothing short of pure idiocy.

Well by that logic, why don't the Railroad just shoot you to keep their secret railroad? For all they know you're an institute spy! Or the BoS? Why don't they just shoot on sight? After all, it's basic security 101.

Except we see in Automatron that thinks like Robobrains can essentially "think" new ways to carry out their orders. Robobrains were told to help people, and then they decided to "help" people by killing them, since they were going to die anyways, helping them to their death faster was seen as the easiest way to help them.

That's not evil, that's bad programming. And even then, the Robobrains have human criminal brains in them. And even ignoring that, it's still the creators fault for not being specific.

The problem with synths is that they are faster and stronger then humans, they dont need to eat, they don't need to sleep, they never age, the are immune to radiation and most disease, and worst of all, they are completely undetectable outside of killing them and opening up their brain to look for the chip. They are like terminators, but you can't even use dogs to sniff them out. And we see in Far Harbor that DiMA has already gone full on Institute with the people of Far Harbor. They danger they pose is far beyond what any human can achieve. Hell, The Institute has given some Coursers VATs powers as well, making them even more dangerous.

Actually, with a simple use of logic there's a very easy way to detect synths. Metal detector right up to the head. That should find the stuff in their brain. And if not that, then starve a person. If they show no bad effects then they're a synth. Or deprive them of sleep, if they don't need to sleep. Really, I can think of a lot of ways to figure out if someone is or is not a synth. Shit, why not a controlled drug that has bad but not too bad side effects that they have a cure for on hand? If synths are immune to disease then they won't get the cough. It's really really easy.

 

[Beeooow]

Except its not logical for raiders, or Gunners, or super mutants to be peaceful, outside of the rare spots where they have agreed to do so. No sane person would let you just walk up to their base, because that is a basic security hazard. Any dealings would be done in places like the Third Rail in Goodneighbor, or East City Downs/The Combat Zone. Try to JUST walk onto a military base IRL. They aren't just going to stand there waving, and walk up to you, hold you hand, and sing songs with you as y'all skip down the base. They will tackle your ass and try to arrest you. If you are obviously armed, they will likely just shoot you. Hell, theres plenty of military bases in America were they will simply JUST shoot you regardless. That's just basic security 101. Letting you walk up to their base without being shot is nothing short of pure idiocy.

I mean, yeah, if a group's policy is to shoot any intruder on sight that's acceptable.
Except for the part where if someone walks onto the base and is clearly outnumbered and outgunned, at a clear disadvantage, why should the main reaction be to kill them instantly? If anything, they could at least enslave, rob, or otherwise do whatever they want to them. Or, just let them in because a single trader, ambassador, or just wanderer 9 times out of 10 isn't a god of death. The number of works and real life situations in which relatively peaceful confrontations occur simply because of the intruder/guest knowingly and willing surrendering some degree of power to earn the trust of the hosts. Course, this is Mad Max world, in which attempts at diplomacy are always 100% going to be murderfests. Who cares about the idea that, at some point, someone who isn't completely paranoid or psychotic will try to test someone similar to them this way and at least allow them to visit once.

The Courier should have died in vault 3, Aba Dabba Honeymoon should not be a quest. Of Course.

Triggering idiots, not exactly difficult. Go on /k/ and call a magazine a clip, they will freak out like crazy.

The point was that realistic mechanics are possible, dingus.

Isn't one of the most common complains about Fallout 4 that high end super mutants are massive bullet sponges? Seems to me that it matches just fine.

Sure. If you want to portray Super Mutants as bullet sponges at least. I'm firmly in the anti-bullet sponge camp, so my idea of portraying their strength and toughness is different. Make them significantly tougher than humans, but not as spongy as Bethesda loves to make 'em. Make their melee attacks crippling. any guns and laser weapons should have about the same effect as human used ones. Higher difficulty levels should just make attack damage higher, but not increase their health. Same for player.

Basically I'm all for STALKER-fication of the combat mechanics. Most people don't though, understandably.

Because the V87 and Institute FEV strains are programmed that way(not intentionally though)

This is some shitty reasoning innit?

Except we see in Automatron that thinks like Robobrains can essentially "think" new ways to carry out their orders. Robobrains were told to help people, and then they decided to "help" people by killing them, since they were going to die anyways, helping them to their death faster was seen as the easiest way to help them.

The problem with synths is that they are faster and stronger then humans, they dont need to eat, they don't need to sleep, they never age, the are immune to radiation and most disease, and worst of all, they are completely undetectable outside of killing them and opening up their brain to look for the chip. They are like terminators, but you can't even use dogs to sniff them out. And we see in Far Harbor that DiMA has already gone full on Institute with the people of Far Harbor. They danger they pose is far beyond what any human can achieve. Hell, The Institute has given some Coursers VATs powers as well, making them even more dangerous.

"Robobrains were created before the Great War by General Atomics International both for the U.S. military and for the civilian sector. Official government records list only chimpanzee brains as being used in the robots, but at least some human brains were taken from the bodies of executed criminals. Many of these criminals were insane, so the resulting robobrains also tended to be unstable, despite complete reprogramming via the CODE technology. Some of these human-robobrains hybrids would try to kill themselves, apparently resenting being made into cyborgs."
Well that's the robo-brain theory shat on. Just bad-brains.

As for your explaination for Synths wanting to be terminators, well... You've not answered why the actual Institute's Synths are 100% at their beck and call, those that haven't escaped a la Harkness or Nick Valentine (which also seem to be perfectly moral). The DiMA ones, well. That's DiMA's influence innit?

Obviously all these robots are dangerous, but they're not predisposed to be evil. Failing corruption, they're fine.

 

[Beeooow]

But why Teleport them when the simpler and much more long term solution is to fucking kill them! You said it yourself that The Institute fears Orcs! By that logic instead of just dumping them on the surface they should be fucking killing them before doing it! It's so much more simple! Just dump a super mutant into a water tank a day before getting rid of them. Then on the next day they'll be dead and the end!

To add onto this, they could probably get more use out of the dead super mutant flesh than just throwing away the possible resources entirely via teleport

 

[Greed]

1. Wait, I'm confused. First you were all like "Oh but the game is scaled down and is bigger than we see it" and I was like, OK. But that further makes the fact that everything is raiders/Hulk Raiders nonsensical. Bot now you're saying it's really small? Make up your mind!

2. So what? You think I'm funny just cause I talk like a clown?! I suppose you don't think I should have a gun either!

3. It's not that they should make nice, it's that they shouldn't kill on sight without a reason! You know why the original Super Mutants killed on sight?! It's because they were told too! That's a good reason! Whatdo these jokers have? Father didin' tell them to kill everyone! Why aren't there at least one small group of Orcs who're all like "Oh yeah, we're nice. We don't really like to kill unless threatened" I'm not asking for all sunshine and rainbows. I'm asking for at least a little bit of hesitation before indiscriminately shooting! Or maybe, a situation as to where I can NOT be shot on sight! Wouldn't that be magical!?

4. I mean, it's kinda hard to find the logic behind a faction when all they do no matter what under every single circumstance is shoot you! No matter what you do! You could save the entire Super Mutant race from extinction and they'd still shoot you! And I don't know about you, but having 95% of the world populated by things that kill on sight is extremely boring to me. Even more boring when the other 5% is a buncha bland idiots.

5. But how do they establish neutral grounds if they just shoot each other? Again, no hesitation ever. No "Ey where you from ese?" "I'm from da trigga men gang! We wanna make drug deals with ya!" "OK cool!" Just shooty shoot bang bang under every single situation imaginable. At least if you're good enough you can talk to the drug crazed leader of The Fiends. And again, they cover most of the entire map. That's where the big problem arises.

6. You idiot! The moves you do in fighting games are to imply you're doing a neat trick! Like you need to do a buncha special movements and attacks before using the ancient snake fang strike! You don't just use snake fang strike without doing something special! Then the 50 years it took to master it would be pointless! Also, w-what about the original Fallouts? They did it just fine? The guys that they said were super strong were super strong. The places that they said was super radioactive was super radioactive. I'm just asking for what they say to match up with what they do. I don't want no "I am the strongest person alive" and then kill them in one hit unless it's like a joke or intended. That's like saying that after hearing that a faction is peaceful and expecting them to NOT shoot on sight is unrealistic. Like the Bee said. Not 1 to 1, just matching up to the point where it makes sense.

7. Wait, wuuuuh? They have constant growth? What? When was this mentioned? Where? Source?

8. But why Teleport them when the simpler and much more long term solution is to fucking kill them! You said it yourself that The Institute fears Orcs! By that logic instead of just dumping them on the surface they should be fucking killing them before doing it! It's so much more simple! Just dump a super mutant into a water tank a day before getting rid of them. Then on the next day they'll be dead and the end!

9. What about Codsworth? Or literally every synth in the railroad? Or every not programmed to be evil bot. Robots are not inherently evil. They are inherently neutral. I've said it before, the more logical standpoint for the BoS is for them to WANT the synths just for themselves. Because they're robots and therefore high tech and all high tech belongs to the BoS. That would make sense. It would even get the synths out of the hands of the peoples who would use them for bads. But no. They gotta be dumb and be all genocidal.

10. Oh my god. I mean we should have factions in general in the east coast!

1. It is scaled down, that doesn't mean its not small. In-game, the map is only about 4/5 miles tall/wide. The real world area is about 25 tall/wide. The map is about 1/5 of the actual size represented. Still makes it a really small area. Where on earth did you get the idea that those two things were somehow mutually exclusive?

2. The way you act.... no, you shouldn't.

3. Except they do have a reason, you are either invading their territory, or they want you for food, or both. You keep yelling NO REASON! NO REASON! when its already been explained they do have a reason. Also, all super mutants act the same because the FEV programs that way. It takes a bizarre abnormality to overcome the FEV programming.

4. Not really, all you have to do is read notes, terminal entries, listen to things they say to each other/to you while in combat. You can learn a lot about them simply based on whats in their living spaces. Video games are a visual medium, and the basic fundamental of visual mediums is show, don't tell.

5. Because groups like the Neighborhood watch make sure no one can fight each other in places like The Third Rail. Those areas are usually neutral because there is a third party making sure the other two parties can't just start shooting each other.

6. No, the moves in fighting games are abstractions of the characters harnessing their chi or w/e. Actually using the hadoken is, in lore, no different then using the kamehameha from Dragon Ball. you just put your hands together in a certain way to channel the chi.

7. Have you played Fallout 3? Like at all? No seriously, how the flying hell do you think Behemoths are made? How do you think Super Mutants go from basic, to master, to overlord, to behemoth? But if you need a citation other then basic observation.
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Super_mutant#cite_note-FO3OGGGYE-18
>Super Mutant society is loosely hierarchical, with the weaker (most recently transformed) Super Mutants generally giving way to the stronger. The Super Mutant hierarchy, as defined by the Capital Wasteland contingent of the Brotherhood of Steel, is as follows: Grunt, Brute, Master, and Behemoth. Generally speaking, the Super Mutants of the Capital Wasteland get bigger, stronger, and dumber as they age. The Behemoths are so strong and savage that they’re the only thing feared by the other Super Mutants."

8. Because its not a better long term solution, since the Institute has no desire to return to the surface. And teleporting them to the surface keeps wastelanders distracted from finding The Institute. Its a win/win for them.

9. Doesn't matter. Synths are literally not people, since they lack true awareness. They are also not alive by scientific measure, since synths lack the ability to reproduce on their own, they are more akin to viruses, due to their need for others to reproduce. And the difference between synths and robots like codworth is that synths aren't shackled by programming, Codsworth is. We see Mr Handy robots all the time saying "How can I serve you master! Not that I really want too!". Mr Handy cant also appear 100% human.

10. We do, groups like The Institute, Ashur's Pitt, the failed CPG.

 

[0wing]

So much effort for a "mediocre game" here...

 

[DR_LaZer]

1. It is scaled down, that doesn't mean its not small. In-game, the map is only about 4/5 miles tall/wide. The real world area is about 25 tall/wide. The map is about 1/5 of the actual size represented. Still makes it a really small area. Where on earth did you get the idea that those two things were somehow mutually exclusive?

So, my point still stands! The raider to settlement ratio is nuts!

3. Except they do have a reason, you are either invading their territory, or they want you for food, or both. You keep yelling NO REASON! NO REASON! when its already been explained they do have a reason. Also, all super mutants act the same because the FEV programs that way. It takes a bizarre abnormality to overcome the FEV programming.

Oh yeah? What if I"m not in their territory and they have a full stomach?! What then?! They shoot me! No matter the situation they'll shoot at me! Because that's all they are to Bethesda! Gun shooters for you to shoot back at!

4. Not really, all you have to do is read notes, terminal entries, listen to things they say to each other/to you while in combat. You can learn a lot about them simply based on whats in their living spaces. Video games are a visual medium, and the basic fundamental of visual mediums is show, don't tell.

First of all, notes and terminals are the worst way to tell a story. Seriously, that's a lazy mans way of telling a story. It might as well be the implication of a story! It's not even a story! At that point, it's lore! And lore's only interesting when it's connected to something in the present! What's the orcs lore connected too? Them shooting at me under every single situation. Every. Single. Situation.

And Video games are not a visual medium, that's movies. Video games are an interactive medium! Meaning, you interact with the story going on in some shape or form! I mean, granted visuals do play a big part, obviously. So does sound, and story telling. But interactivity is the main deal! Just like how in movies telling us stuff gets boring just SHOWing stuff to us is boring! Let me interact with SOME kind of super mutants beyond just shooting at them! I'm not asking for all of them to be my friend. Or for ANY of them to be my friend! I just want to actually interact with them beyond shooting and the most complex conversations being "RAAAAHH! Me rip off head and shit down human neck! BRAAAHHH!"

5. Because groups like the Neighborhood watch make sure no one can fight each other in places like The Third Rail. Those areas are usually neutral because there is a third party making sure the other two parties can't just start shooting each other.

OK.... but how do they even set up that meeting when all the raiders do is shoot everyone they see? I'm not asking how a neutral ground is even a thing, I'm asking how the meeting place is even established for both parties to meet when all they do is shoot at each other?

6. No, the moves in fighting games are abstractions of the characters harnessing their chi or w/e. Actually using the hadoken is, in lore, no different then using the kamehameha from Dragon Ball. you just put your hands together in a certain way to channel the chi.

You know, it's god damn funny how I used a made up move of my own "the ancient snake fang strike" which I tried to imply was a series of other attacks leading up to the bigger attack. It's almost like I KNOW how the hadoken and kamehameha works. God damn funny how that works.

8. Because its not a better long term solution, since the Institute has no desire to return to the surface. And teleporting them to the surface keeps wastelanders distracted from finding The Institute. Its a win/win for them.

Actually, it IS! If the Super Mutants do eventually take over the surface, then they'd no doubt go after The Institute! Or, what if for whatever reason they WANTED to go to the surface? Or needed something from the surface!? Gee, to bad we can't go up to the surface because we infested it all with the super mutants even we know are a threat! Plus, like the Bee said, super mutant flesh seems a little valuable to keep if you're testing the FEV!

9. Doesn't matter. Synths are literally not people, since they lack true awareness. They are also not alive by scientific measure, since synths lack the ability to reproduce on their own, they are more akin to viruses, due to their need for others to reproduce. And the difference between synths and robots like codworth is that synths aren't shackled by programming, Codsworth is. We see Mr Handy robots all the time saying "How can I serve you master! Not that I really want too!". Mr Handy cant also appear 100% human.

Errrrr, no. Last I checked, they went through extreme lengths to show that Synths were people. Like, at first I thought the big deal with them was that they had a metal endoskeleton which wasn't human. But no, they're literally just lab made people with implants in their brain to make them smart! There is like nothing really separating them from peoples that much, at least on a mental level. Like, they're pretty much like a nicer looking super mutant, but better.

They even have the same reproduction problem. And they kinda showed that synths did have awareness. Nick was the most aware and alive character in the entire game. Dima was also kinda aware. Like, where's the cut off point where they're not people? And I mean people in the same manor of Super Mutants where they're living beings who have hopes and dreams and feelings and opinions and personality and basically everything that makes humans humans and not just animals. Like, I know that they're not humans as you'll no doubt point out. No shit. But they're still people.

10. We do, groups like The Institute, Ashur's Pitt, the failed CPG.

So, a faction that won't affect the world as a whole, a faction locked away by DLC, and something that doesn't exist anymore and we never even really saw. Riveting.

 

[CerberusGate]

Now to deviate from Greed's latest tirade for a bit:
@Greed , I have got to ask you at this point... Why are you here on NMA? Seriously.

All I have been seeing you do here is parrot about how Failout 4 somehow has no flaws and defending it to an illogical extent, past the point that any fanboy would defend it. You continue to nitpick and use headcanon to justify any point you can use to defend 4 and when people provide points against you, you nitpick their points and even go so far as to lie about their validity (like Super Mutants healing in radiation which is an outright lie), all this without acknowledging any of their points in the slightest. I see you choosing to nitpick sentences by wordings rather than addressing the point of their sentences.

Why don't you go back to r/Fallout4 or even Sugarbombed if you want to continue gushing about 4 and defending it despite the numerous flaws that game has? Not a lot of people these days have strong feelings for 4 and they will throw out as much arguments against your illogical train of thought, NMA was simply ahead of the curve. If you want to properly discuss 4, try keeping an open mind to criticisms towards 4 and don't dismiss the main point of posts like you have been doing. Take the criticisms towards your 'beloved' game that you apparently stuck '1000 hours' in and don't go looking for dismiss-able flaws in other games to put them down so that your 'beloved' 4 can look good.

Resorting to such tactics when facing dissent towards your beloved game simply makes you look pathetic.

 

[Greed]

All I have been seeing you do here is parrot about how Failout 4 somehow has no flaws .

I love how the moment someone starts saying anything positive about something there is always that one person whose first resort is

SO YOU THINK IT HAS NO FLAWS!

Seriously, grow the fuck up. This isn't middle school.

or even Sugarbombed

You mean the site that rather hilariously, and rather pathetically, tried to goad Avellone into saying something negative about Bethesda?

 

[BigGuyCIA]

I love how the moment someone starts saying anything positive about something there is always that one person whose first resort is

SO YOU THINK IT HAS NO FLAWS!

Seriously, grow the fuck up. This isn't middle school.

Missed the point and didn't address what he said, champ.

 

[CerberusGate]

Seriously, grow the fuck up. This isn't middle school.

Aw.. how cute... You're trying to tell me to grow up when you clearly have not and way to resort to swearing when I have not bothered with explicit insults.

I can concede points (and have done so in order to keep discussions going) but if I'm following your MO on the forums so far, I should be dismissive of all your points because "Hurr durr... They disagree with mine even if they make sense and pick apart my own arguments".

Nothing wrong with liking 4 (I'm not that insane to dismiss anyone who likes 4; I'm still friends with people who like 4 IRL but only because they only have a casual liking at best and they play more games than 4) but you've been going on a mindless crusade here:
13 pages filled your rather pointless arguments and your dismissive rebuttals to anyone who replies against you. In fact, I bet most of your 96 posts have been on this thread alone.

Your reply to me (and how badly you react to people criticizing 4 overall) brings this to mind:

Spoiler

Missed the point and didn't address what he said, champ.

Just like it's MO on this site. Just like any other troll.

EDIT:

You mean the site that rather hilariously, and rather pathetically, tried to goad Avellone into saying something negative about Bethesda?

And I applaud both parties for that. Sugarbombed for picking up on the common sentiment towards Bethesda (and acknowledging it) and Avellone for handling the question diplomatically (Yes, he revealed his own sentiments on Obsidian but he's a free agent, who is working with Bethesda and would not benefit from insulting them)