Fallout 76: General thread

[Heisenberg]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_stages_of_grief
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

 

[CerberusGate]

Right, still no proof.

Moving along then.

Edit:

 

[Atomic Postman]

Now that I haven't got any stuff I need to do, I can now freely waste mine and everyone else's time with this.

We were talking about factions, but since you prompted the discussion, let me explain.

Fallout 4 has an open-ended ending where you can continue to play to see the aftermath of your decisions yourself. You don't need ending slides to tell you what happened. You can visit CIT yourself to see what it looks like after it exploded. You can visit Synth Shaun yourself if you saved him and speak to him. New Vegas and 3 were different in this aspect. 3 was clearly written to be narratively a finality for the Lone Wanderer. New Vegas had it's post-game ending cut due to time constraints. They had a lot of content that they couldn't realize within the time they had to create it, so they made the slides instead. It was intended to give some closure on the narrative that replaced the post-game ending, not be a staple of the franchise itself.

It might be a matter of taste but I actually prefer not being able to play past the end (with a customary save right before it) precisely because of Fallout 4's way of handling it, and also the way that community mods attempting to add such an ending to New Vegas turn out. The concequences of the ending always feel minimal. In Fallout 4's case, it's hardly noticeable in terms of impact versus the slideshow which gives a definitive end and a more depthful look into the concequences of your choices, and the future. Vegas's slides aren't perfect (and I have complained about them on this site before) but I feel they're more impactful than a pretty comparatively minimally altered world. It's the same thing in the New Vegas post-ending mods, where despite some things being swapped around it never feels as impactful as what you picture when the slides describe the aftermath.

Fallout 4 would benefit more if it had actual concequences depicted in slides, then dropped you back into its post-game sandbox. Instead it's the two extremely shallow FMVs that might as well not be included, as it's just nothing-trailer style platitudes. It'd be like if New Vegas ended with just the "In the Mojave Wasteland, blood would still be spilled" bit and that's it.

The reason I don't feel they did this is for the same reason that Fallout 3 has very minimally different slides, which is effectively not enough meat in the quests and worldbuilding to actually make a worthwhile slideshow. Though mind you, I doubt it would be that much harder to do something like Fallout 1's rather simple one.

Let's agree to disagree. From the very start, the Institute is hinted at. BoS introduce themselves very early on in a manner characteristically suitable for them to do so, and the Railroad are hidden in the shadows up until the player chooses to unravel them. All of them are introduced in well-thought out, unique and distinct ways. Institute is entangled with the player's life, BoS shows up to gather intel (much like they've been doing in every FO game) and Railroad can be avoided entirely up until you get tasked to decode the courser chip, which bearing in mind, you can do in a whole matter of different ways. You can ask them politely, sneak in and do it for yourself, kill them all. You have a few options of doing this.

I would say that the Institute and the Brotherhood both have good introductions but the Railroad's is pretty laughable, what with the comically obvious Freedom Trail and the YES OR NO introductory dialogue. The Railroad having a binary morality on the issue isn't the problem, it's more that the players engagement with the question doesn't feel satisfying and as such it almost feels like the Devs are suggesting it really is a binary question, rather than that binary being the view of the Railroad. The player should be able to have more varied response than they do, but 4 has that issue of the transparently hollow Yes. Yes. No (Yes) wheel which is a direct downgrade from 3 (Which handled player dialogue serviceably). I have problems with them as a faction beyond that but that's not really what we're discussing.

Minutemen are a far worse player faction than Yes Man in a number of ways, I feel Yes Man is quite well set-up as a natural """"secret"""" of the plot and an interesting unveil, acting kind of like a chekov's gun for the whole game if you end up going Wild Card. Meanwhile the Minutemen are introduced in a very boring cinematic setpiece involving nameless raiders (a perennial problem with Beth Fallout that they did make some attempts to rectify in 4, but not really enough at all and still inferior to NV), don't particularly have much character to them and the whole "You're the General but actually you take orders from me, errand boy" thing is quite grating versus your sycophantic robot pal that's basically useless outside of his mcguffin trick. Of course, Garvey being immortal is also worse than Yes Man's reasoning but that's minor and not really important.

Meanwhile, FNV introduces the Legion in such a way that can be completely avoidable if you skip Nipton and cut straight to The Strip. This isn't bad by any means. The BoS can be avoided in FO4 too, but at least the BoS declare their existence to the player when they fully arrive in the Commonwealth via the Prydwen as soon as the player exits Fort Hagen. The Legion on the other hand is executed poorly. The player can have no idea of them up until the legion courier gives the player the Mark of Caesar, and if you went straight to the Lucky 38, House gives the player the introduction to the Legion, which sucks.

You get the basics of the Legion in the intro movie, which I think does a fine enough job for making you aware of what they are. I always think Nipton is botched as an introduction because most people don't pick up on Nipton being basically a raider's cove rather than a Goodsprings esque town. In fact, hearing about them in name only from the intro's ominous introduction of them and whatever NPCs mention, then being invited to go to their fort actually works a little better than meeting furry-man in Nipton, but I've never tried it that way. [/Quote]

NCR are also boring and the first time you meet them, they're struggling to take down 5 bandits in the Vikki and Vance casino that have taken over Primm. It's embarrassing for them, being such a military strength that has control of Hoover Dam, which is what the whole game centers around

The intro establishes them as an Old World style government, and what you hear of them in Goodsprings is quite contrasting to what most picture of the Fallout setting, particularly to people coming in from 3. Their introduction in Goodsprings is through worldbuilding i.e, the Powder Gangers and the entire conflict of the quest is a direct result of their chain-gang prison system and logistical incompetence. It introduces you to basic themes, i.e they're well equipped and attempting to civilize (building railways in the Mojave) but fall prey to mismanagement and strained resources (allowing the convict rebellion and being unable to contain it because they're focused on the Legion). Primm is basically a reinforcement of that, it's not that they can't take it (IIRC, I might be wrong) it's that they aren't authorized to and the soldiers are draftees who don't give a fuck. Personally, I think that's quite interesting, and NCR's portrayal as a whole is probably the most depthful in the series when it comes to factions.

Fallout 4

has a reputation system, but it's integrated within it's story quests. For instance, if you kill Father, you are barred from doing every Institute quest since you are expelled from their HQ, and they will shoot you on sight.

New Vegas had more clearly defined systems for this, with the two major nations obviously picking up that you're starting to work for one faction or another, and also the faction reputations for all the sub-groups, as well as the potentially mixed-reputations for strange behaviour you could achieve like Wild Child which affected NPC dialogue.

Fallout 4 is objectively a step up from 3 in this regard and I applaud that, but my original point was that it was still playing catch-up to NV which already cracked a better system (one that needed refinement and improvement in and of itself)

One of my favorite playstyles is the "Fistful of Dollars" playstyle. The one where the player betrays all the factions from beneath their feet and sides with 1 faction, either themselves or another of their choice.

I was able to do this in Fallout 4 very well, especially with the Institute ending.
I was able to do this in New Vegas to varying degrees of success. Often times it's hard to play both sides against each other, since as you said, the cut-off point is rather early. You have to play quests in a specific order and constantly look to the wiki for points of no return. It's fatiguing.

This is not what a roleplaying game should be. I should be able to play both factions up until the very end. The only faction I am able to do that with in New Vegas is NCR and House/Independent, which is astounding, considering the game is influenced thematically by spaghetti westerns which have this as a core trope.

It's been a while since I've seen Fistful, but as far as I recall your thoughts are quite ironic on this since a major plot point of the film is that Clint has concequences for his actions as both groups suss out what he's up to, and he gets the absolute shit kicked out of him. Which basically is what happens in Vegas, even then you can still Fistful of Dollars all factions up to a certain point where it becomes logically unreasonable, and then as you point out you can still pull a sneaky one by doing an NCR/Independent Vegas route.

I would say this comes down to a split in personal preference of player power-fantasy versus immersion. Something that's a player difference in RPGs going into tabletop too. Personally I'm of the immersion camp, so I prefer the New Vegas method of not being able to have my cake and eat it too versus the Skyrim method of being King MegaDong of all factions at the same time.

You're joking. Are we playing the same game? There's the Atom Cats, the Children of Atom, the Cabots.

And in New Vegas you have:
White Glove Society
The Chairmen
The Omertas
The Kings
Westside
Mojave BoS
NCRCF Powder Gangers
Vault 19 Powder Gangers
Great Khans
The Boomers
The Fiends
The Thorn
Novac
Bright Followers
Goodsprings
Primm
Jacobstown
Black Mountain

And so on. 4 has better subgroups than 3 (Although I remember liking Reily's Rangers) but they still lack in depth and believability compared to the NV groups, and in quantity too. I also wouldn't champion the Cabots considering they are absolutely up there with the worst loony-toons bullshit in Fallout 2 like Seymour or Keeng Rat.

Wrong. I'm actually of the mind that they SHOULDN'T have included iron sights. I would have much preferred a DOOM-like combat system, where the guns don't need an annoying piece of metal covering 1/3rd of the screen at any given time.

I tend to be on the anti-iron sights group when it comes to full FPS games but I felt it worked fine in Fallout, though at times I do think the isometric combat works better for FO full-stop.

Speech is contained within Charisma now, which eliminates the Speech 100 Charisma 1 character builds seen in New Vegas.
Skills have been integrated into Perks. This simplifies and enhances the experience for some players. Even if it is a controversial decision, you can see their mentality.
Traits were superfluous in many regards. You don't need them to roleplay a specific character since skills and perks contribute to that anyway. They brought these back with mutations in Fallout 76.

The Speech/Charisma dump thing was something I always thought they should have rectified by replacing numerous Speech checks with Charisma checks (Where appropriate, i.e the Courier making an argument versus being schmoozy) and tying your ability to have companions to it, however deleting Speech completely is a huge misstep.

By combining Perks and Skills you ablate the uniqueness of both, it's part of the greater problem of Fallout 4's protagonist (and Skyrim too, though not Fallout 3) feeling like amorphous super-people ala Far Cry or whatever Ubisoft player characters. Skills are a legacy of tabletop and for good reason, reflecting the range of (obviously) skills that your character can interface with the world, their specialities and unique knowledge. Conversely, Perks were unique bonuses and quirks that would really direct and shape your character in fun ways. The worst perks were always no matter the game the one that gave you flat bonuses to Skills, and now that's basically the bread and butter of them. The synchronicity between SPECIAL, secondary stats, Skills and Perks always felt like putting together interesting combinations, and reducing the amount of parts in that jigsaw only reduces the character, I feel. The same way that making SPECIAL a flat floor that you upgrade upon like a Call of Duty perk system instead of a system that creates characters with natural weaknesses and strengths is also a step back.

That being said, 1, 2 and NV don't got far enough in guiding your character to specialize and "Jack Of All Trades" becomes "Master of most" instead of "Master of none" and SPECIAL isn't punishingly meaningful enough, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the "Master of All" issue in 4, which is only worsened by the soulless character building with the new perk and SPECIAL system.

Fallout 4 does feature a blank slate protagonist for the most part if you disregard the voice. While Nate and Nora had occupations pre-war their occupations are so open-ended you can justify any character with them. And even if we take a step back and analyze this in comparison to New Vegas, New Vegas still isn't much better in this regard. You have to be a Courier from Mojave Express, you have to have walked the Divide, you have to have been weak enough to get captured by Benny and shot in the head and you have to be courageous enough to hunt him down through thick and thin. What about my nerdy weakling character who doesn't want revenge? What about my strong tough guy character who would shrug off bullets like they're raindrops?

You must be joking on this one, come on. For one, you can't disregard the voice. That's a major knee-capper to true roleplaying. Two, your character's life is already defined for you so concretely. You're an army veteran that fought in specific conflicts with a specific regiment, you live in Boston with your wife of many years. You're upper-middle class, live in a nice neighborhood with your own house, your own specific car, your own robot who you named Codsworth that makes you your favourite morning coffee. You're a fan of comic books, Nuka-Cola, particularly Grognak the Barbarian patriotic and look back on your service fondly, you have a baby named Shaun and a dog, and you're largely unaware of Vault-Tec or the threat of nuclear war and you ABSOLUTELY MUST FIND YOUR BABY even though the narrative structure lends you to taking your time.

Conversely with the Courier, all that needs to be required is that you've travelled around New California and delivered one package to the Divide and another to New Vegas in your past (I was never a fan of Lonesome Road's decision here but it is what it is now) . Your motivations can range from revenge, curiosity as to what you got yourself into and what exactly it was you were carrying (and how it's important, how was the game rigged? Who's setting me up?) or contractual obligation (You are given a note saying you're obligated to finish the delivery at punishment of fine, barring from courier work or even having mercenaries sent after you)

More importantly the voice affects the range of dialogue options, of which I'm sure you would even admit are far more limited than Fallout 3 before it and definitely more limited than NV. The Yes. Yes. No (Yes.) thing is a meme for a reason after all.

The argument I was making was many people disagree with you. Every point you've made so far is that Wastelanders writing is as bad as Fallout 4's. You've never explained why and you've parroted this belief as though it's concrete and solid fact. I'm merely reminding you that people disagree with your opinion, MANY people. Your opinion is not objectively correct, it's not a solid truth. It's just an opinion. Saying this in response to how I've examined the ways 76 does it right is a non-point. You've not elaborated on it.

Of course it's my opinion, this entire argument is on opinions. What else is it going to be? You can say from an objective standpoint 76 is/was a poorer game because of the absolutely unacceptable launch, unfinished nature and the anti-consumer practices but truthfully I don't know the background drama behind 76 so I don't know if it was forced out ala NV or a product of corporate hubris.

You talked about worldbuilding, I was explaining to you why worldbuilding, the way factions are framed and the environments they are put into have to be different in a multiplayer game. It's not my fault you can't keep up.

Seems you're the one having issues considering in my first post about it I already said I accepted that the framing and core conceipt of the players/plot needed to be a certain way, but that's not what I'm talking about. "The Raiders" and The Responders can still play the same function in the MMO gameplay but have much more interesting and compelling flavour which serves no purpose other than fluff. That's the worldbuilding that has zero to do with the gameplay.

Not an appeal to authority, it's an argument in favor of having fun regardless of whether or not you have to abide by some strict set of rules written by someone who doesn't even control the IP anymore decades ago.

I'm a Fallout fan who doesn't care about some "Fallout Bible" written by a proclaimed sexual harasser decades ago. I care about having fun in a video game. Fallout is NOT a state of mind. It's a video game. Bethesda want to appeal to people like me, people with jobs and lives outside of a video game forum. If I want NCR Veteran Ranger Armor or the Brotherhood of Steel in my video game, that's a perfectly reasonable demand. They would be insane to think that a small note in that guy's "Bible" overwrites my claim.

Check my point above. I don't give a shit about your "lore" if it gets in the way of me having fun. I only care about the lore if it's intriguing to the world and it's a fun little tid bit on travels. Not when it completely gets in the way of me wanting something to be in a game I purchased.

It's less about applying to arbitrary rules but more the style and quality of portrayal, the FO Bible only matters in as much as it presented a high quality, cool version of that world with creative integrity. I'm sure New Vegas ignored stuff from the FO Bible, I don't know nor do I particularly care, because the version of the Fallout world it presented was great and championed what made Fallout really cool in the first place.

It's comparable to say Disney's handling of Star Wars or whatever. They own the IP, and the general populace really want to clap at things they know, they want to see Death Star repeats and Palpatine and whatever low-effort garbage. They can do whatever they want with it, and it makes them shedloads of money but it doesn't make it actually good or in the spirit of what elevated the originals to cultivate such love in the first place. It's (often) creatively lazy and continues to devalue the setting until it's whittled down into just flanderized marketing mascots. They of course have the legal right to do that, but I also have the right to go "That's garbage, and a shame"

It'd be like if Amazon owned the Tolkein Estate totally, and with the new Lord of the Rings TV show ignored basically everything about LOTR outside of what movie-goers fondly remember. Gollum saying precious, Dwarf memes or whatever and just turned it into the most low-effort crap that betrays what was originally written. Do they really need to adhere to what some crusty dead Britbonger wrote in a book? Not at all, they own it and it sells. But it'd be a shame, and it'd be of lower quality, no?

This also comes down to personal preference, again. Yours clearly comes down on the side of the fence of power-fantasy, which is fine but it's not my style. If I were in a tabletop game that was just blatant player-wank and waifuism, I'd probably leave just because it's not my thing. I find immersion and feeling engrossed with a setting to be more interesting as engagement. I feel "powerful" enough in my own life, I don't really get much satisfaction from it virtually when it's shallow. That can be fun in stuff like DOOM but when it comes to RPGs, it's not my shade of the genre.

Oh really. That's why many vocal members of this forum proclaimed New Vegas to be "more Fallout 3" when it was released, right?

Don't know + don't care. When I joined NV was beloved.

My point was not that NMA doesn't like Fallout 1 or 2. My point was that every Fallout game NMA has had any sort of influence on has disgraced and killed the franchise before Bethesda brought it back from the dead.

Did John Cleese influence Fallout 2 because the Bridgekeeper is referenced in it? You keep hinging on this point but it's the most genuinely nonsensical of everything you've said. Did NMA want a combat-focused game that ignored the lore, aesthetics and turned away from narrative focus? Did NMA want an Xbox-exclusive shooter with big booba texans? I'd be really interested to see you find the evidence of NMA extending its tendrils of creative influence, because that's what they wanted.

Nitpicky and cherrypicky, right? Much like what you do with Fallout 3 and Fallout 4. But whatever. I was trying to make the point that you cherrypicking certain quests to fit your narrative is disingenuous, but yet you have proven my point by calling me disingenuous for parodying said point. I applaud you.

Thing is that Fallout 3 and 4 need cherrypicking to actually make it seem like they do have meaningful C&C. I think there's what, like one quest in 3 that has significant branching paths or inter-connectivity with your other interactions? Personally I always find the quest dick-measuring pointless because literally browsing the wiki tells you everything you need to know, and any arguments about it are going to be inherently cherrypicking because you can't mention all of them nor the greater sum/context.

Wrong. You can avoid these quests. They are completely skippable. You can also sneak in the former and it's actually encouraged and the quest stages change if you so desire to do this.

Saying "You can sneak to do it" really doesn't change the argument much. I stand by my statement that dealing with the Khans is more multi-faceted than the major factions in 4. Again, easily provable by just looking at the wiki.

The Kings are intended to be a pivotal faction in the NCR questline. You get sent to make peace with them in Freeside. It makes sense for the Kings to be much more elaborated, since they are center stage and the first faction one meets once they walk into Freeside.

The Atom Cats on the other hand are isolated within their own hideout. The player is not forced to visit them or even to acknowledge them. Despite this they still have characters, dialogue and even their own paint job for Power Armor. Name 1 Kings NPC apart from The King and Pacer.

Also what is this about depth anyway? The Atom Cats and the Kings are about as deep as each other. Both of them are Elvis/greaser impersonators which a similar number of characters. The only difference is that the Kings were center stage in Freeside and the Atom Cats weren't.

Your justifcation here is odd, because why not picture a Fallout 4 where the Atom Cats are also relevant to the story? They could have been, much like the silly Elvis men are in NV.

They also absolutely aren't the same in depth. Strip the Elvis gimmick from the Kings and they're still a faction with an important role. They're an oddly moralistic street gang of local tribal natives that are well-intentioned but ultimately violent, and reflect what it's like to be a native population during a foreign annexation that's double-edged, being as ham-handedly unfortunate as it is beneficial, and the complex feelings that can arise, leading to violence and misunderstandings. You as the agent of change can alter their trajectory, do they do their best to ease the transition and help their people by accepting it, or do you stock their rage and help them reject the foreign influence? Or do you bring temporary peace, with the ultimate goal of liberating them from the foreigners without violence in their streets.

If you strip the greaser thing from the Atom Cats, they're literally nothing.

Can you not read between the lines? Institute wants to create a slave class of synths to rebuild the wasteland back to it's former glory. That's literally their motto: "Mankind Redefined".

If you have to "read between the lines" to decipher very basic goals of a faction, it's flawed if not poor presentation. As for their reasoning, if that really is the case why did they make them in such an inefficient human form? Why give them intelligence and sentience only to deny that sentience? Why not make far more efficient droids instead? What actionable steps are they actually taking to rebuild, what's their starting goal even to rebuild? What will they do immediately after their victory? Even if we go with your version, it's extremely vague. Compare this to the concrete objectives of NCR, House and Legion. Independent is the only one that's as vague as the Institute and that's because the central conceipt of that path is gambling on anarchy.

The fact that many players even debate which faction is preferable even today over New Vegas where it's pretty common knowledge that the Legion are evil slavers and the NCR are bureaucrats with a dark side, but mostly the good guys.

I can blatantly tell you're from /v/ or somewhere adjacent and as such you absolutely know this is not the case when it comes to which faction choice is still being debated, unless you're from /fog/, in which case yuck.

Yes Man was about as boring as two rocks put together but he's from New Vegas so I guess you seemingly glossed over that.

The anti-faction anarchist choice is inherently interesting but I agree that it's underdeveloped hence why half of the players thing it's the Courier being King Big Dick of Fuck Off Mountain

What you're failing to realize is that New Vegas had poorly written side quests too. You're telling me that I can't kill Joe Cobb and finish Gun Town Ghost Fight without talking to Ringo first? It makes no sense.

As far as your examples go, a weird loop in the gameplay meta-structure being your first jump for the poor writing is pretty odd. Yeah that's a weird logic-gap, but surely the quest fails if Joe Cobb is killed (Or at least the one to siege the town) meaning Goodsprings is safe, you just didn't do the Seven Samurai bullshit with Ringo's blessing and payment.

You're telling me that Ghouls managed to fly to the moon and back to Novac to help them out? How did they even land back there with the approximate co-ordinates? Didn't they leave their technician guy?

They don't go to the moon. They crash land nearby, they never make it out of orbit IIRC.

isn't some shakespearean masterpiece. But neither is New Vegas. I'm merely making the point that if you're calling Fallout 4 a bad game for minor lore inconsistencies you have to keep in mind the absolutely batshit insane inanities that infested Fallout 2 and New Vegas.

Lore inconsistencies are more the icing on the cake for nerds but that is not what people take issue with Fallout 4 primarily. Also, 2 is very inconsistent yes and everyone here acknowledges that. However, New Vegas is very tonally consistent. Weird, but consistent.

Anyway, your posts here are pretty hard to understand the reasoning behind. You say you want to talk about Fallout 3 but you post deliberately inflammatory retard shit instead of asking cool questions, inspiring discussion or talking about lore. Even I have made more constructive threads about Fallout 3 on its dedicated forum to discuss it than you have. If you're not a troll, I think there's probably something wrong in the noggin because it just seems like you're picking fights for the sake of it, then claiming you're just innocently trying to discuss stuff. You call the bethesda fans on this website token, but it's really not the case. There's plenty that start up interesting discussions and whilst some users can be annoyingly prickly they'll either be left alone if nobody cares to join in, or people will post their thoughts.

If you were more charitable and more good-faith, and less of a raging cunt I'd be inclined to talk to you more with whatever you respond with (and you might say something constructive/nice and we can chat well), but for now, nah.

 

[Heisenberg]

It might be a matter of taste but I actually prefer not being able to play past the end (with a customary save right before it) precisely because of Fallout 4's way of handling it, and also the way that community mods attempting to add such an ending to New Vegas turn out.

Lol. So you start off by saying that Fallout 4 has a shitty end-game, then back off as soon as I shut your argument down?

Keep backtracking. I actually fundamentally agree with you, but you're making such a shitty point of it that I can't help but argue with you.

Let me remind everyone of the post made here:

Fallout 4 only has two seperate ending slides

This was the point I was referencing. I wasn't even talking about whether or not you should prefer to be able to free roam after the ending or an final ending.

You're not wasting anyone else's time. You're wasting my time. Especially since I have to keep going over points you keep ignoring, and keep bringing up old posts by you when you move the goalposts.

I would say that the Institute and the Brotherhood both have good introductions

Similarly, Fallout 4's structuring of factions is extremely flimsy

Keep contradicting yourself too. It's adorable, sweetie.

Fallout 4 would benefit more if it had actual concequences depicted in slides, then dropped you back into its post-game sandbox.

What would be the need? You can see the consequences for yourself? Do you need everyone to explain it you like you're literally 5 years old?

Fallout 3 has very minimally different slides, which is effectively not enough meat in the quests and worldbuilding to actually make a worthwhile slideshow.

It's not necessary, that's why. It's up to the player to headcanon. This offers more freedom and perspective in the way the player interprets the events of 3.

Minutemen are a far worse player faction than Yes Man in a number of ways, I feel Yes Man is quite well set-up as a natural """"secret"""" of the plot and an interesting unveil, acting kind of like a chekov's gun for the whole game if you end up going Wild Card.

So a (secret) is a quest marker next to a room containing Yes Man. I don't think it counts as a secret if it has a quest marker next to it.

New Vegas had more clearly defined systems for this, with the two major nations obviously picking up that you're starting to work for one faction or another, and also the faction reputations for all the sub-groups, as well as the potentially mixed-reputations for strange behaviour you could achieve like Wild Child which affected NPC dialogue.

So... you're saying that you personally cannot keep track of your friendliness with each faction without a little blip in your pipboy?
Oh, and some of the reputation in FNV makes no sense at all. You kill Joe Cobb before he attacks the town, boom Goodsprings hates you. You attack Jason Bright and his ghouls boom Novac hates you.

New Vegas even has a shitty karma system where if you kill legionaries, you get positive karma, ruining the whole "muh morally grey" faction point you have.

It's been a while since I've seen Fistful, but as far as I recall your thoughts are quite ironic on this since a major plot point of the film is that Clint has concequences for his actions as both groups suss out what he's up to, and he gets the absolute shit kicked out of him. Which basically is what happens in Vegas,

Not true. Caesar never caught on to me, even if I activated the securitrons underneath his fort and didn't destroy them as he told me to. NCR never realized it either because the pre-scripted plot must go on and I have to meet General Lee Oliver to kick his ass.

And in New Vegas you have:
White Glove Society
The Chairmen
The Omertas
The Kings
Westside
Mojave BoS
NCRCF Powder Gangers
Vault 19 Powder Gangers
Great Khans
The Boomers
The Fiends
The Thorn
Novac
Bright Followers
Goodsprings
Primm
Jacobstown
Black Mountain

It's hilarious how you throw towns and cities into this too rather than actual side factions. If we did this with 4 we would have:
Operators
Gunners
Diamond City
Publick Occurences
Goodneighbour
Children of Atom
Atom Cats
Settlers
Disciples
The Pack
DIMA's synths
Far Harbor

And the whole point about depth is pretty null when you consider that all of the FNV side factions have no depth either. They're there for one quest and that's about it.

You must be joking on this one, come on. For one, you can't disregard the voice. That's a major knee-capper to true roleplaying

Just as much as it is in Mass Effect or Dragon Age Inquisition, or just about any other RPG with a voiced protagonist. Do you complain about those games too?

Conversely with the Courier, all that needs to be required is that you've travelled around New California and delivered one package to the Divide and another to New Vegas in your past

Taken from the Fallout wiki:
"What is known is that sometime before taking the fateful contract to deliver the platinum chip, the Courier lived as a drifter, earning a reputation as a veteran of the trail who had traveled all over New California (according to Ulysses the Courier has been to Circle Junction, New Reno, Vault City, Fort Abandon and on brahmin drives at the Big Circle).[1] Yet the Courier had some sort of connection to the budding community of the Divide in southern California (Ulysses claims that the Courier regularly traveled through the area, and contributed a great deal in keeping it alive).

After the New California Republic attacked and sacked Navarro, they recovered a piece of tech they did not fully understand, but they recognized several symbols (such as the Old World flag). They later linked these symbols to similar markings they saw in the Divide. The Courier took on the job to return it there, perhaps because the markings reminded them of home. But after making the delivery, the package turned out to be a detonator that contained missile launch codes. According to Ulysses, the package "woke up" and sent the detonation signal to missiles locked in the silos, resulting in massive earthquakes and powerful storms wiping out the community in its infancy, leaving Ulysses as the only survivor.[2] The Courier was apparently not present when the destruction happened, and therefore did not know of it.

In 2281, the Courier was one of six messengers hired by the Mojave Express to deliver packages to the New Vegas Strip, with the Courier carrying the parcel containing the only item of worth: Robert House's platinum chip, delivering it all the way from near Hub, California.[3] The Courier got the job after Ulysses pulled out when he learned that the Courier's name was next on the list. The Courier was intercepted by Benny, who then shot the Courier in the head twice and left them for dead, buried alive in a shallow grave in the Goodsprings Cemetery."

Three paragraphs of backstory. Wow so much of a clean slate.

Did John Cleese influence Fallout 2 because the Bridgekeeper is referenced in it? You keep hinging on this point but it's the most genuinely nonsensical of everything you've said. Did NMA want a combat-focused game that ignored the lore, aesthetics and turned away from narrative focus? Did NMA want an Xbox-exclusive shooter with big booba texans? I'd be really interested to see you find the evidence of NMA extending its tendrils of creative influence, because that's what they wanted.

Are you legitimately an idiot or do you not realize that game developers have an unconscious desire to listen to criticism, even if they only spotted it on a website they frequented?

If you were building a chair and someone told you one of the legs was crooked, would you NOT fix it? Would you leave it?

Thing is that Fallout 3 and 4 need cherrypicking to actually make it seem like they do have meaningful C&C.

Nice joke.

Saying "You can sneak to do it" really doesn't change the argument much. I stand by my statement that dealing with the Khans is more multi-faceted than the major factions in 4. Again, easily provable by just looking at the wiki.

Cherrypicking again. God you love this.

Your justifcation here is odd, because why not picture a Fallout 4 where the Atom Cats are also relevant to the story? They could have been, much like the silly Elvis men are in NV.

Because Fallout 4 factions don't send you on a wild goose chase to get backup they should've done themselves. They don't use you as a delivery boy. In Fallout 4, you're a soldier along with Danse, or a spy along with Deacon, or a mercenary for the Insititute. You're not some sort of diplomat for every single faction.

Kings and they're still a faction with an important role.

About as important of a role as the Atom Cats are to the overall game. A faction the player can visit and think are cool.

If you strip the greaser thing from the Atom Cats, they're literally nothing.

wtf? If you strip the Elvis thing from the Kings they're literally nothing? Read your post before you press submit will you?

I can blatantly tell you're from /v/ or somewhere adjacent and as such you absolutely know this is not the case when it comes to which faction choice is still being debated, unless you're from /fog/, in which case yuck.

boogeymans

 

[TorontoReign]

I can blatantly tell all of you care too much about this shitty franchise. Why would you even bother debating pros and cons of Fallout 4 or 76 any more anyway? How many of you are seriously retarded? This guy is a troll yall.

And if he isn't a troll? WHO CARES?! WHY ARE YOU DEBATING IT!? I'M PRETTY SURE YOU ARE ARGUING WITH A KID.

Oh and kid I'm not a bigot I love fags.

 

[Heisenberg]

Gotta love someone who calls himself a "Level 27 Wizard" calling anyone else a kid. LMAO.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Lol. So you start off by saying that Fallout 4 has a shitty end-game, then back off as soon as I shut your argument down?

Wait I don't understand your point here. He doesn't value the kind of post-end-game Fo4 has, so he thinks its bad. How have you put his argument down?

End-slides are preferable to a post-end game because to do a post-end game at the same level of depth as the end slides (which go into narrative detail and can extend years into the future) you'd essentially have to program a whole new game. Instead what we got in Fo4 (and would've gotten in NV based on the game files) is just a bunch of winning faction members standing around settlements saying "Things are going to change around here!" and all of the generic townsfolk saying "I'm nervous, things are going to change around here!" But very little fundamentally changes, because that would necessitate not only creating a whole new game essentially but potentially removing questgivers/altering quests aside from the main faction ones, when basically the whole point of a post-end game is to allow you to finish quests.

It's hilarious how you throw towns and cities into this too rather than actual side factions. If we did this with 4 we would have:
Operators
Gunners
Diamond City
Publick Occurences
Goodneighbour
Children of Atom
Atom Cats
Settlers
Disciples
The Pack
DIMA's synths
Far Harbor

Every one of the factions he cited has at least one quest associated with them, and the Fiends. The only one you could arguably remove is the Fiends since they're usually hostile and the only tiem you can interact with them is Aba Daba Honeymoon, and reputation doesn't exist/matter. Also he didn't have to cite DLC factions.

About as important of a role as the Atom Cats are to the overall game. A faction the player can visit and think are cool.

wtf? If you strip the Elvis thing from the Kings they're literally nothing? Read your post before you press submit will you?

The Kings have several quests assosciated with them that tie into several other questlines, including getting access to the Strip. They're not a particuarly deep faction, at core they're just a gang, but come on man. The Atom Cats?

 

[TorontoReign]

Gotta love someone who calls himself a "Level 27 Wizard" calling anyone else a kid. LMAO.

Well grownups don't debate whether Fallout 4 is great or not in 2021 unless they are autistic or fanboys.

Kid
Fanboy
Autist

Which are you?

 

[Heisenberg]

Well grownups don't debate whether Fallout 4 is great or not in 2021 unless they are autistic or fanboys.

Grownups don't moderate a 24 year old dead forum in 2021 unless they are autistic or fanboys either.

I'm just entertaining myself by debating you. It's actually hilarious the circular logic that is exhibited. So much for being intellectual lmao.

Wait I don't understand your point here. He doesn't value the kind of post-end-game Fo4 has, so he thinks its bad. How have you put his argument down?

He starts off by criticizing Fallout 4 for having no slides
then he criticizes Fallout 4 for having an open ending where you can explore post-game.

Okay. Why didn't he just say that he didn't like the post-game ending in the FIRST post? Why did he lead me around this circle? He could've said that in the first post, but now he's just cowering and compromising.

Every one of the factions he cited has at least one quest associated with them, and the Fiends. The only one you could arguably remove is the Fiends since they're usually hostile and the only tiem you can interact with them is Aba Daba Honeymoon, and reputation doesn't exist/matter. Also he didn't have to cite DLC factions.

Yeah I literally don't care whether side quests are attached to side factions or not. It makes no difference to me or 99% of players if I get a quest tied to one NPC or a quest tied to a small side "faction".

The Kings have several quests assosciated with them that tie into several other questlines, including getting access to the Strip. They're not a particuarly deep faction, at core they're just a gang, but come on man. The Atom Cats?

Like I said, because they're center stage in the NCR questline and center stage as soon as the player enters Freeside. The Atom Cats aren't, so basic game design fundamentals predicates that less time is spent on them, more time spent on other quests.

 

[TorontoReign]

Well I am a grownup and I am moderating this forum because I made friends here over the course of my life as I grew to love and then hate Fallout so yours just fell apart, but you are still acting like a fanboy or a little kid by debating the pros and cons of a fucking Bethesda game which are made for retards like yourself.

Neener-neener-boo-boo!

 

[Heisenberg]

Can you imagine moderating a Fallout forum, despite having no interest in Fallout, self-admittedly?

Take a guess who's the retard, eh?

 

[Jogre]

Yes. So is Blade Runner's plot. Do you like the movie Blade Runner? It's been done dozens of times before. If you are you're a hypocrite. It's poorly written trash.

Haven't seen it: my guess is that since Blade Runner is so beloved it probably does something original.

Fallout 4 doesn't.

The point is that a child who read a brief debate about AI rights could have written the entire main plot of Fallout 4, and it would make no difference because it lacks any depth or nuance, actual thought-out points, or even originality in writing it.

And I don't think retellings of stories are bad by inherent nature. One can argue Fallout 1 is a retelling of numerous other post-apocalyptic pieces of fiction out there, such as Mad Max. Does that make it bad too?

The entire point of Fallout 1 is that it's an adventure in it's own world. You have no idea what you're going to find until you see it yourself, there's a town of mutants, an organised militaristic society with their own strange belief system.

"Post Apocalyptic" doesn't need to be an entirely new genre, rather it has to have original content, which Fallout 1 HAS. Fallout 1 isn't a copy paste of the plot of Mad Max, it's it's own original setting with lots of interesting things to find and discover.

Fallout 4's AI plot does nothing original whatsoever with it's AI. Like, literally Synths are indistinguishable from humans in every way other than a chip in their brain, and the choices you have to deal with them are "They're property" "They're a threat to humanity" "They're people". Nobody gives any convincing arguements as to why any of these positions are true.

Fallout 4 to me, feels like someone decided "Ok so what are the basic elements that every story about androids has" wrote it down, and then added absolutely nothing else to the mix, just using their barebones notes.

 

[Atomic Postman]

Lol. So you start off by saying that Fallout 4 has a shitty end-game, then back off as soon as I shut your argument down?

I didn't back off in any sense of the term. I still think it's got a shitty endgame, I just explained why I thought so in a more measured fashion because it seems to upset you otherwise, for whatever reason and was hoping you'd be more calm in your response if I was more level headed (whoops). I said I didn't like it because the effects on the world are actually pretty minimal, in the same fashion NV would be if it only had it's final slide then something equivalent to the CAGE mod after Hoover Dam. Very, very bad reading comprehension from you.

Keep backtracking. I actually fundamentally agree with you, but you're making such a shitty point of it that I can't help but argue with you.

AKA you're doing exactly what everyone has been saying, which is being a complete twat for no reason instead of acting mentally normal.

You're not wasting anyone else's time. You're wasting my time. Especially since I have to keep going over points you keep ignoring, and keep bringing up old posts by you when you move the goalposts.

Irony of this when you've responded to like a quarter of my post. I didn't respond to the points you made to other users, because I don't care.

Keep contradicting yourself too. It's adorable, sweetie.

Zero contradiction here. Quest structure =//= Introdcution. I said NV had cleaner and more effective introductions, and I stand by that.

What would be the need? You can see the consequences for yourself? Do you need everyone to explain it you like you're literally 5 years old?

Unless someone else is watching the slides for me, that is me seeing them for myself. Gamebyro and generally any game is not going to put the effort of showing major developments post-game to the level that I'd prefer, and some stuff isn't going to be portrayable, such as stuff going years into the future or out of the region. That's the advantage of slides vs in-game, you can storytell with more freedom, which to me gives greater satisfaction to the choices I made in the game. My momentum going into Hoover Dam wasn't the battle itself but what it was going to do to change the Wasteland. I think the changes presented in slides are more meaningful/reflective of my choices than whatever limited stuff will inevitably turn up in post game, which reflects in all existing examples of post-game gameplay so far.

It's not necessary, that's why. It's up to the player to headcanon. This offers more freedom and perspective in the way the player interprets the events of 3.

Fallout 1 has simple, binary slides but it offers more to the imagination than 3 does. 3 does really trite pseudo-reflectice slides much like the FMV at the end of 4. I think it's a misstep because I think you can convey more through ending FMV as to the results of your actions long-term than having NPCs change float dialogue and a few change locale. If a developer ever decides to develop 5+ different games set after their first one's ending, more power to them.

So a (secret) is a quest marker next to a room containing Yes Man. I don't think it counts as a secret if it has a quest marker next to it.

Hence why I put secret in quotations, but going in blind Yes Man isn't something you really guess from when you wake up in Goodsprings or start following the trail. Same thing with Benny's actual plan until you talk to him/Yes Man about it. It's got a layer of minor revelation and intrigue, small as it is. But yeah not overly secretive, as I acknowledged with the blatantly sarcastic quotation marks.

So... you're saying that you personally cannot keep track of your friendliness with each faction without a little blip in your pipboy?
Oh, and some of the reputation in FNV makes no sense at all. You kil Joe Cobb before he attacks the town, boom Goodsprings hates you. You attack Jason Bright and his ghouls boom Novac hates you.

It's a cleaner and more efficient system for tracking it and the rules for quest interactivity, yeah. I also acknowledge in my post it's not perfect, and needed improvements in the next game. Hence why it's disappointing that 4 is a more barebones version.

New Vegas even has a shitty karma system where if you kill legionaries, you get positive karma, ruining the whole "muh morally grey" faction point you have.

You'll get no arguments from me (Or Josh Sawyer) about Karma being ill-suited to Fallout. but you can ignore the Karma markers and put them to paper, and they're still the most depthful factions in the franchise so far.

Not true. Caesar never caught on to me, even if I activated the securitrons underneath his fort and didn't destroy them as he told me to. NCR never realized it either because the pre-scripted plot must go on and I have to meet General Lee Oliver to kick his ass.

Don't Tread On The Bear!/Beware The Wrath of Caesar! - there's a cut-off point for each faction as you yourself acknowledged, so yeah, they do find out.

It's hilarious how you throw towns and cities into this too rather than actual side factions. If we did this with 4 we would have:
Operators
Gunners
Diamond City
Publick Occurences
Goodneighbour
Children of Atom
Atom Cats
Settlers
Disciples
The Pack
DIMA's synths
Far Harbor

And the whole point about depth is pretty null when you consider that all of the FNV side factions have no depth either. They're there for one quest and that's about it.

It's even more hilarious how you have to include the Gunners (mob-raider faction equivalent to Jackals and Vipers, which I didn't list), a literal shack within one of the existing towns and pad it out with DLC groups, which I didn't even do with mine because it wasn't neccessary to illustrate the point. What point was this meant to make? Not counting that in NV most of these towns are sub-groups.

As for one quest, most of them have better quests than the majority of comparable in 4, and others have multiple quests with more depth. But as both you and I have made clear, quest dick-contest is just an exercise in cherrypicking, the wiki speaks for itself.

Just as much as it is in Mass Effect or Dragon Age Inquisition, or just about any other RPG with a voiced protagonist. Do you complain about those games too?

Yes.

Taken from the Fallout wiki:
"What is known is that sometime before taking the fateful contract to deliver the platinum chip, the Courier lived as a drifter, earning a reputation as a veteran of the trail who had traveled all over New California (according to Ulysses the Courier has been to Circle Junction, New Reno, Vault City, Fort Abandon and on brahmin drives at the Big Circle).[1] Yet the Courier had some sort of connection to the budding community of the Divide in southern California (Ulysses claims that the Courier regularly traveled through the area, and contributed a great deal in keeping it alive).

After the New California Republic attacked and sacked Navarro, they recovered a piece of tech they did not fully understand, but they recognized several symbols (such as the Old World flag). They later linked these symbols to similar markings they saw in the Divide. The Courier took on the job to return it there, perhaps because the markings reminded them of home. But after making the delivery, the package turned out to be a detonator that contained missile launch codes. According to Ulysses, the package "woke up" and sent the detonation signal to missiles locked in the silos, resulting in massive earthquakes and powerful storms wiping out the community in its infancy, leaving Ulysses as the only survivor.[2] The Courier was apparently not present when the destruction happened, and therefore did not know of it.

In 2281, the Courier was one of six messengers hired by the Mojave Express to deliver packages to the New Vegas Strip, with the Courier carrying the parcel containing the only item of worth: Robert House's platinum chip, delivering it all the way from near Hub, California.[3] The Courier got the job after Ulysses pulled out when he learned that the Courier's name was next on the list. The Courier was intercepted by Benny, who then shot the Courier in the head twice and left them for dead, buried alive in a shallow grave in the Goodsprings Cemetery."

Three paragraphs of backstory. Wow so much of a clean slate.

3/4 of this is padding, mostly explaining the plot of Lonesome Road itself. As I said: Travelled the Big Circle in NCR, delivered two packages, got shot.

Are you legitimately an idiot or do you not realize that game developers have an unconscious desire to listen to criticism, even if they only spotted it on a website they frequented?

Yes and I am entirely confident that NMA's criticsms and desires were not to make Fallout: BOS or literally anything close to it. If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to dig it up. Otherwise I'd advise you drop this point or you'll just run us in circles, again.

Nice joke.


Cherrypicking again. God you love this.

All cope.

Because Fallout 4 factions don't send you on a wild goose chase to get backup they should've done themselves. They don't use you as a delivery boy. In Fallout 4, you're a soldier along with Danse, or a spy along with Deacon, or a mercenary for the Insititute. You're not some sort of diplomat for every single faction.

Discounting the fact that Fallout 4 is the game that introduced radiant quests so comparing how "Errand boy" the protagonist is pretty null (and also considering that's the archetype of literally every RPG protag), I personally found playing diplomat a lot more interesting than the very similar busywork (devoid of choices or interesting narrative) interspaced with draugr dungeons and kill-everything sequences. I liked Danse's reveal quest/decision a lot, but the rest all blur into the same unmemorable mass to me.

wtf? If you strip the Elvis thing from the Kings they're literally nothing? Read your post before you press submit will you?

Point you already conceded by saying they're integral to the NCR questline, and I already explained what they have beyond the Elvis gimmick. They're not very complicated at all, but they aren't just the greaser look.

boogeymans

Much like NMA

I don't know why I bothered this time since you're continuing to be a complete asshole.

 

[TorontoReign]

I love when NuFallout fans argue because they basically agree but one side thinks the other side is still a doo-doo head.

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

isn't adaptive leveling doing basically the samething as static leveling just differently. Adaptive leveling accomplishes it by making enemies provide bigger challenge as you level more. While Static leveling accomplishes it by providing actual end-game content like fighting legendary creatures or big boss fights or something.

The Progression is still there. As you progress more enemies are going to provide fight better, have better equipment, etc.

Though i also see how adaptive leveling may seem like magic and very unimmersive. As all raiders for example just magically get better equipment, as you level. not to mention more health. etc. While static leveling solves this issue by providing certain enemies with certain low level equipment, (dynamite or pistols, single shotguns) etc. and mid-tier and higher-tier enemies providing better equipment laser weaponry, plasma weaponry, etc. So i definitely see how adaptive leveling is not very immersive. Since it just magically adds things in a very gamey way. while Static doesn't do any adding or scripting or anything like that aside from a few things and setting certain enemy types to have certain weapons while others having different weapons etc.



I personally think both work just as well it just depends if the developers are going for immersion and don't mind sacrificing that immersion in order to achieve what they want to achieve in their game. Progression is still the same either way, as you level, get better equipment, etc you are able to fight enemies more effectively.

 

[Heisenberg]

Haven't seen it: my guess is that since Blade Runner is so beloved it probably does something original. Fallout 4 doesn't.

Fallout 4 also does something original, hence why it is so beloved outside this community. Also you haven't seen Blade Runner? Do you live in a first world country?

The point is that a child who read a brief debate about AI rights could have written the entire main plot of Fallout 4

Source? I want to see a study of this? Proof or *shock* you're WRONG.

The entire point of Fallout 1 is that it's an adventure in it's own world. You have no idea what you're going to find until you see it yourself, there's a town of mutants, an organised militaristic society with their own strange belief system.

Wow. I never thought I'd see a group of synths convene and make their own societies and factions. Wow so strange so militaristic wow.

"Post Apocalyptic" doesn't need to be an entirely new genre, rather it has to have original content, which Fallout 1 HAS. Fallout 1 isn't a copy paste of the plot of Mad Max, it's it's own original setting with lots of interesting things to find and discover.

Fallout 4 does have new content. The fact that it merges these two ideas together is proof of this on it's own lol.

Fallout 4's AI plot does nothing original whatsoever with it's AI. Like, literally Synths are indistinguishable from humans in every way other than a chip in their brain, and the choices you have to deal with them are "They're property" "They're a threat to humanity" "They're people". Nobody gives any convincing arguements as to why any of these positions are true.

What about the fact that synths have been proven to have emotions and have formed real connections and relationships with people, including the player for one. Across Fallout 4 you form connections with Danse and Glory, both Synths. Even Nick and he's an inferior model.

Fallout 4 to me, feels like someone decided "Ok so what are the basic elements that every story about androids has" wrote it down, and then added absolutely nothing else to the mix, just using their barebones notes.

Here's a hint: Fallout. They added Fallout into the mix. Because it's a Fallout game.

I didn't back off in any sense of the term. I still think it's got a shitty endgame, I just explained why I thought so in a more measured fashion because it seems to upset you otherwise, for whatever reason and was hoping you'd be more calm in your response if I was more level headed (whoops)

AHHAHAHAHAHA. Really!

AKA you're doing exactly what everyone has been saying, which is being a complete twat for no reason instead of acting mentally normal.

I'm the bad guy, yet you're using ad hominems every post.

Irony of this when you've responded to like a quarter of my post. I didn't respond to the points you made to other users, because I don't care.

You have in the past. And I only responded to a quarter of your post because the other three quarters were just pseudointellectual filler with no nuance or substance.

Zero contradiction here. Quest structure =//= Introdcution.

Do I have to bring up the posts again?

That's the advantage of slides vs in-game, you can storytell with more freedom, which to me gives greater satisfaction to the choices I made in the game

This is basically an entire argument for having no post-game ending and that's fair, but you shitting on 4 for having less slides than NV when you fail to realize that 4 has a post-game ending and NV does not is not a fair comparison. You're comparing apples to oranges. You also have to realize that majority of players want a post-game ending. You're not one of them, thats okay. But the game was no made to appease only you. It was made to appease everyone else.

Fallout 1 has simple, binary slides but it offers more to the imagination than 3 does

Personal preference and interpretation. Not real tangible criticism being stated here. Just a sweeping statement with no backing info.

Hence why I put secret in quotations, but going in blind Yes Man isn't something you really guess from when you wake up in Goodsprings or start following the trail.

Neither is activating the purifier or bombing the Institute sweetie.

most depthful factions in the franchise so far.

ahahahahah not really. Even if you put them to paper, the cards are stacked against them. They are written to be a bad guy faction and the karma changes are just proof of that, even if you erase them or ignore them.

Don't Tread On The Bear!/Beware The Wrath of Caesar! - there's a cut-off point for each faction as you yourself acknowledged, so yeah, they do find out.

Yeah, but do they actually do anything though? Capture the player, etc?
There's a cut-off point in FO4 too where each faction turn hostile. What kind of point are you trying to make?

As for one quest, most of them have better quests than the majority of comparable in 4, and others have multiple quests with more depth. But as both you and I have made clear, quest dick-contest is just an exercise in cherrypicking, the wiki speaks for itself.

Like I said to a previous user. Does it even matter if quests are connected to subfactions? We're literally debating apples and oranges here. I'd much rather a better side quest unrelated to a minor faction if it's a good side quest on it's own merits.

Yes.

At least you're consistent.

3/4 of this is padding, mostly explaining the plot of Lonesome Road itself. As I said: Travelled the Big Circle in NCR, delivered two packages, got shot.

- You've been making delivers up and down the interstate for years, meaning you're healthy enough to be doing this, which means you can't play a fat or disabled character
- It also means you can't play an older character
- It also means you can't play a young teenager
- You have to play a fit person between the ages of 16 and 40
- You've also been doing this for years, meaning you can't be from another place fresh to the southwest, you've been here for years perhaps most of your life if you're young
- You were not in the ncr or the legion, so your backstory cannot involve those factions
- You were in fact a courier, the only backstory available to you, and where you worked as well as the last several years of your life are given to you
- You didn't do it for the money because it was dangerous and medium paying, meaning your character is canonically interesting in establishing settlements for the sake of it, meaning you can't really play a destructive, misanthropic, or even just greedy character, your backstory eliminates these

Yes and I am entirely confident that NMA's criticsms and desires were not to make Fallout: BOS or literally anything close to it. If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to dig it up. Otherwise I'd advise you drop this point or you'll just run us in circles, again.

My point was that NMA tailored Fallout Tactics and BoS into what it was with Interplay and Black Isle listening to their incessant bitching, not that they took full control of the steering wheel and set a crash course for Mars.

All cope.

Nothing to cope about, sweetie. Keep in mind you're typing out dissertations and having your arguments shot down by a couple of words.

Discounting the fact that Fallout 4 is the game that introduced radiant quests so comparing how "Errand boy" the protagonist is pretty null

What? So Fallout 4 introducing a completely optional series of quests to allow the player to get money and caps on the side is comparable to an entire main story forcing the player to do shitty errand work for a main faction, none of which the Fallout 4 factions force you to do? Okay cowboy.

Point you already conceded by saying they're integral to the NCR questline, and I already explained what they have beyond the Elvis gimmick. They're not very complicated at all, but they aren't just the greaser look.

The Atom Cats are integral to exploration. They're a fun little faction you can meet on the side. That's more than their gimmick.
And also, if the Kings weren't Elvis impersonators for just one second, they could literally be anyone. You're the only one conceding here.

Much like NMA

But what you're failing to realize is that you and NMA users are proving the boogeyman point.
Nobody from /v/ is on here shooting down your arguments, and yet you're pinning them on me anyway.

 

[Norzan]

Yes, because they don't like their own shit. This isn't some unknown thing. It's been known for years.

Listen, you've been here since 2017 so let me clue you in a few things. Fallout was a dead franchise in 2004. It had been dead for 6 years. Nobody gave a shit about it. Around the early 2000s, gaming hit the mainstream in far greater capacities than it had ever done before.

In 2008, Bethesda released Fallout 3. Many of the people who bought Fallout 3 were TES fans and the game was designed a lot like Oblivion, hence why some on here called it "Oblivion with Guns". This also gave rise to a new generation of Fallout fans who brought Fallout into the mainstream.

Take a look at old YouTube comments from 2008/2009/2010 of "Fallout 1/2 gameplay". You will find that many of the most liked, commented on and top comments were "Wtf is this?", "this was Fallout?", "I didn't even know there was a Fallout 1 or 2". Fallout 3 was that popular, that majority of it's fanbase didn't even know of the first two games. They were ancient history by then.

The Vault Boy thumbs up icon is a cultural icon now. I always see it in PowerPoint presentations and some people who don't even play Fallout know of the Vault Boy's existence.

So Fallout 3 single-handedly, without a doubt, caused Fallout to be pushed into mainstream pop culture. Celebrities talked about it, the New Vegas party was hosted on Kim Kardashian's birthday, Matthew Perry was very vocal about his adoration for the game.

NMA hated this. They hated it so much they purposely spread misinformation about the game and threatened the lives of Bethesda employees.

Got any other conspiracy theories? The moon landing was fake? Illumaniti lizards are minding controlling our children?

 

[Atomic Postman]

I've heard the "NMA tried to threaten the lives of Bethesda employees and started a misinfo campaign to brainwash everyone" word for word on /v/ before. I remember asking that person for evidence but they kept dodging it. I wonder if this is the same guy. Still, not discounting it if there's evidence.

 

[Heisenberg]

I've heard the "NMA tried to threaten the lives of Bethesda employees and started a misinfo campaign to brainwash everyone" word for word on /v/ before. I remember asking that person for evidence but they kept dodging it. I wonder if this is the same guy. Still, not discounting it if there's evidence.

You do realize that everyone knows this right?
/v/, /fog/, even guys and gals on the RPGcodex are aware of this. I would even bet some of your oldest admins are aware of it.

But I'm literally laughing my ass off that 2013 and 2017 members are defending a forum that they haven't even been a part of for half it's lifespan on the world wide web.

 

[Atomic Postman]

You do realize that everyone knows this right?
/v/, /fog/, even guys and gals on the RPGcodex are aware of this. I would even bet some of your oldest admins are aware of it.

But I'm literally laughing my ass off that 2013 and 2017 members are defending a forum that they haven't even been a part of for half it's lifespan on the world wide web.

If everyone knows this it should be really easy to prove, right? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm asking you to prove it.