Fallout: New Vegas Developer Diary #4 - The Factions

DocConrad said:
Going into a game perceiving it as black and white, and having that expectation slowly turned on it's ear?
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If that's how it turned out, I would shit bricks and I would give Obsidian all of money. I hope you're right, I really do. I would be thoroughly impressed if siding with the 'good guys' did more damage than siding with the 'bad guys'.

But I'll never forget that the "Killian ruined Junktown and Gizmo created prosperity" ending was axed because it was deemed too morally ambiguous.

I hope I'm wrong, as I've said. But I am sceptical.
 
I think the Legion will turn out to be, like they kind of were in VB, an extension of the philosophy of the Followers of the Apocalypse. They civilize and stabilize, but by force instead of by the more peaceful means that the Followers subscribe to. It's been mentioned that they fold tribes and raider gangs into themselves and turn their aggression towards productive ends, so their brutality probably has a purpose: to coerce wastelanders, raiders, and others into joining up.

If Bethesda is willing to have touchy stuff like crucified soldiers in a game they're publishing, they're probably not unwilling to have this kind of ambiguity, even if they did wuss out on The Pitt.

It is kind of weird that they're focusing so much on the fact that the Legion is full of slavers though, considering that they've got a whole lot of other traits that have been mentioned like their moralism or rejection of the idea of 'rebuilding'. Speaking of, does anyone know what preview it was that talked about the difference between NCR, which was trying to rebuild the old world, and the Legion, which is trying to build something new? I think it was in GI but I'm not 100% sure.
 
Even if the NCR does more damage to New Vegas than CL, I'm going to side with them (for the first time) anyways, just because I just like being a part of the military in Fallout games (I hated having to be with the BOS in FO3 though, I dislike power armor as well)
 
DemonNick said:
If Bethesda is willing to have touchy stuff like crucified soldiers in a game they're publishing, they're probably not unwilling to have this kind of ambiguity, even if they did wuss out on The Pitt.
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Thing is though that it seems Bethesda is much faster in acepting any kind of violance (as long it doesnt happen to overlapp with what is seen as "wrong" in the media) compared to questionable morale topics or in other words "inteligent content". And I am dead serious. If you consider the broad audience which loved Oblivion it must have a reason why they loved it and Oblivion is pretty much void of any "heavy" topic that requires more then a sharp axe or fireball to solve it except for the one or other exception. And this was also many time true for Fallout 3 as well. It doesnt mean it has not situations where you indeed can choose the outcome but its extremly simple and you pretty much ALWAYS know before you do what will be the result the game never ever "lies" to you (to speak so) like a good guy eventualy doing something bad to the world later either on purpose or accidently ~ you know the story about the good ambitions but poor execution.

Though I think Obsidian will do a better job here. At least when it comes to the writting of the indidivual characters as they can do them well like shown with Kotor II.
 
A lot of people are putting this as a definite NCL vs. CL overlying game, but as JE Sawyer states, there are 3 main factions. That puts a whole host of other "morality" options to deal with.

The optimist I am (ie I believe the writing will be good) thinks that there could be a possibility that any of the factions could turn out to be "good" or "bad" depending on choices. Everything I've read leads me to believe that there will be far more complex choice trees than Fallout 3 offered.

The point of this particular game is that your choices matter. I think you could lead Mr. House to benevolent rule in one play through, allow the NCR to establish an iron fisted empire in another, sign a peace between all factions on your third - it seems like this is the ultimate goal of the Obsidian guys, to actually allow you to have control over the politics of the wasteland, not just act as a device to push the story to its end (giant robot with lasers).

But hey...maybe I'm just overly optimistic.
 
CS's badness is going to depend on what type of slavery they practice. When someone hears "slavery" the automatically think African slavery of the past couple centuries but slavery hasn't always been like that.
 
DemonNick said:
It is kind of weird that they're focusing so much on the fact that the Legion is full of slavers though, considering that they've got a whole lot of other traits that have been mentioned like their moralism or rejection of the idea of 'rebuilding'. Speaking of, does anyone know what preview it was that talked about the difference between NCR, which was trying to rebuild the old world, and the Legion, which is trying to build something new? I think it was in GI but I'm not 100% sure.
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I think it's just a factor of "That's the simplest way to explain the Legion to potential customers" without betraying the more nuanced motivations that we can discover in-game.

From all the preview material I've seen and read, I believe Obsidian kind of hopes that people will ignore them and see NCR as the "Good Guys" and CL as the "Bad Guys" just so it's all the more impressive in-game when those ideals get turned on their heads.

A final thought: No one has really looked at how Mr. House's possible moral alignment or motivations might influence the conflict. This video is the first time I've seen him as being portrayed as a viable "third faction". Whereas NCR and CL are agents of change, I think he's going to be force for the status quo, asking you to either destory both factions or simply absorb them. Which will protect New Vegas at the expense of dooming the Wasteland to lawlessness.

God, this game needs to come out already.
 
sea said:
The thing is, Obsidian don't just do simple inversion: the whole "good guys are really the bad guys" thing is just as predictable as any old good vs. evil story. Marburg was brought up as an example of a good villain, and I'd like to thank who did, because I really get the feeling that's what the Legion is going to be like: not evil, but opposed to the goals of others and largely self-concerned to the point where they feel they can trample over others to maintain their lifestyle. Marburg, outside of his slightly creepy attitude, is extremely well-written and well-motivated; he doesn't come across as evil in the least, just contrary to your own ends and not at all regretful of that fact.
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Damn right. Alpha Protocol is a great example of how to write villains. Although personally, my favourite "villain" so to speak was that Arab sheik, who turned out to be a pretty decent guy (islamic terrorists aside).

It's also full of saintly groups like the NCR Rangers.
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I wouldn't call them saintly, unless you're meaning "like the Saint of Killers". Apart from having bounties on them in NCR even, their methods are pretty brutal - hell, in Fo2 you are hired to perform what's basically little more than a mob hit.
 
I reckon that Obsidian and Bethesda are sniggering to themselves about having portrayed Ceasar's Legion as the bad guys... and then having a plot twist where NCR are actually worse. (Not just buerucratic but actually sinister.)

They've also set things up so you are likely to side with NCR first as they've got a NCR sympathetic/Ceasar's Legion-hating companion in the first town.

So they're hoping to have a "MY GOD, WHAT HAVE I DONE" plot twist. Like Deus Ex, where the anti-terrorist organisation is actually the army for a world-controlling conspiracy, and the terrorists are the only ones opposing them.

Because I just can't see Obsidian doing such a straitforward villain as Ceasar's Legion seems to be.

Bethesda had the ex-Brotherhood slaving guy in The Pitt DLC, and that worked quite well, but he was still effectively evil, he was "a villian with interesting motives" as kidnapping people, working them to death and making them do cage fights can't really be justified by the desire to rebuild a city.
 
your evil twin said:
I reckon that Obsidian and Bethesda are sniggering to themselves about having portrayed Ceasar's Legion as the bad guys... and then having a plot twist where NCR are actually worse. (Not just buerucratic but actually sinister.)

They've also set things up so you are likely to side with NCR first as they've got a NCR sympathetic/Ceasar's Legion-hating companion in the first town.

So they're hoping to have a "MY GOD, WHAT HAVE I DONE" plot twist. Like Deus Ex, where the anti-terrorist organisation is actually the army for a world-controlling conspiracy, and the terrorists are the only ones opposing them.

Because I just can't see Obsidian doing such a straitforward villain as Ceasar's Legion seems to be.

Bethesda had the ex-Brotherhood slaving guy in The Pitt DLC, and that worked quite well, but he was still effectively evil, he was "a villian with interesting motives" as kidnapping people, working them to death and making them do cage fights can't really be justified by the desire to rebuild a city.
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Well I guess I don't have to buy Deus Ex anymore. :clap:
 
If you haven't played Deus Ex by now, don't cry about spoiler by other people. It's not like the game has been released last month.
 
Crni Vuk said:
you pretty much ALWAYS know before you do what will be the result the game never ever "lies" to you (to speak so) like a good guy eventualy doing something bad to the world later either on purpose or accidently ~ you know the story about the good ambitions but poor execution.
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Except for when you try to make peace with ghouls and the Tenpenny residents, but the ghouls still end up killing everybody. Pretty sure no one saw that coming.
 
and yet its still a "violent" ending/solution. But as I said there are only very few exceptions in F3 where you dont know exactly the result of your actions. Imagine what happend when people realized "oh the game is over when I killed the super bad mofo!" and how many complained it was not a open ended game ~ and that was really known for quit some time BEFORE the game was released!. And to such a audience you want to give long, intriguing and complex plots where you sometimes dont know what will come out from your choice ? Letz be realistic here. Its not what Bethesda want in their game (talking about those games THEY make)
 
Lazlo said:
They say all this, but I'm still sceptical as to how a group of slavers can really be morally ambiguous.
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well... law of jungle, honour, no dirty politics?

thats what i ithink it may be
 
smejki said:
Lazlo said:
They say all this, but I'm still sceptical as to how a group of slavers can really be morally ambiguous.
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well... law of jungle, honour, no dirty politics?

thats what i ithink it may be
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The ideal of a slave-free culture is kind of a new one. Ancient Greece, Revolutionary America, hell, even the Italian Renaissance all relied on slavery either at home or abroad. Even today we rely on labour that's cheap enough and exploitative enough that it's arguably de facto slavery. Civilization is built on coerced labour, especially pre-industrial civilization.

Even NCR practices slavery of a sort. Provided they haven't revised the Powder Gangers too much, they're escapees from an NCR forced labour program that put convicts to work on infrastructure projects to support the republic's expansion.
 
So much reused Oblivion art - in Caesar's legion. They remind me of that Arena. However, somehow I don't mind it.
 
squeehunter said:
CS's badness is going to depend on what type of slavery they practice. When someone hears "slavery" the automatically think African slavery of the past couple centuries but slavery hasn't always been like that.
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Considering their Roman roots I guess they would go for Roman slavery which wasn't really that bad and was seen more as a right of passage because the slave would eventually be free and allowed to have his own slaves.

Also how is that reused art Blackened? The Arena armour is completely different with the only similarities being that both armours have a skirt.
 
Let's not get too high and mighty on the virtues of Rome.

Slaves could buy their freedom but it was never guarunteed.
Ancient Rome wad a bloody lustful society that committed some horrible acts as
Common occurrences. I don't think cl will be evil,but I do believe they are very byzantine in how they rule---scare everyone else into falling in line with what they say.

As long as there are real options and the ability to manipulate things u will be thrilled
 
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