Fallout: New Vegas tidbits

[Brother None]

RE: Homosexuality...

It is very well handled in the game. Not surprising, considering who the Creative Director is...

Eh?

There is no racism and there has never been racism in any of the Fallout games.

Yeah there is. Ghouls and super mutants are subsets of the human species. Races, in fact. Unlike what we call races now.

Generally speaking sure, but there are a couple places (The Fort for one) where you'll get a couple sexist comments if you're playing a female character (and very within the motif).

One of the many reasons the Legion doesn't fit.

 

[Thomas de Aynesworth]

There is no racism and there has never been racism in any of the Fallout games.

Yeah there is. Ghouls and super mutants are subsets of the human species. Races, in fact. Unlike what we call races now.

Not fact, any anthropologist would taxonomically reclassify both Super Mutants and Ghouls into a different species. Same genus perhaps, but certainly not the same species.

Hence the more apt term: speciesism.

Races exist within the human species already. Hell, races exist within the Super Mutant population (Nightkin).

 

[VRaptor117]

Generally speaking sure, but there are a couple places (The Fort for one) where you'll get a couple sexist comments if you're playing a female character (and very within the motif).

One of the many reasons the Legion doesn't fit.

I disagree in this particular instance. It's talked about several times about how the Legion won't use women as soldiers because they are more valuable as child-bearers or slaves. That practical fact, combined with propaganda and the dogma practiced by the Legion, explains the sexist attitude male Legion soldiers feel towards females.

If there's no females, except for slaves, at the Fort, then one day a female Courier arrives to talk to Caesar (a rare event even for a male outsider), there's going to be some negative comments.

 

[Brother None]

Not fact, any anthropologist would taxonomically reclassify both Super Mutants and Ghouls into a different species.

Anthropologists are the last person I would ask about taxonomy, and every anthropologist I know disagrees with your assessment of "race", by which you mean ethnicity. Hell, they'll use the word because that's normal, but they'll always put it in quotation marks in that typical smug anthropologist way of indicating they disagree with a concept, like "radical Islam" or "failed state".

Anthropologists? I shit 'em.

In a biological sense specieism is an apt term simply because the races can't intermix, but that definition is useless since both super mutants and ghouls are infertile anyway. Biology isn't exactly fitted to define radical mutations which bring forth a single-generation race, but the fact that they are radical mutations of a species means they are easier to slot in as a race than as a new species.

But, uh, what difference does it make? Whether they're species or races, Fallout clearly took racism as we define it now and transplanted it to racism towards ghouls and super mutants.

I disagree in this particular instance. It's talked about several times about how the Legion won't use women as soldiers because they are more valuable as child-bearers or slaves. That practical fact, combined with propaganda and the dogma practiced by the Legion, explains the sexist attitude male Legion soldiers feel towards females.

I didn't say it wasn't explained. Everything about the Legion is explained. That doesn't mean it suddenly makes sense design-wise, it doesn't mean it suddenly "fits".

We've had raiders and slavers before, and that same logic on women as child-bearers would apply to them, yet it didn't. Enter the Legion, and it does. Like I said, one of the many reasons the faction doesn't fit into Fallout lore.

 

[Beelzebud]

Well like it or not but it does fit in with Fallout lore. Repeating that a bunch of times doesn't make it true. Fallout lore isn't based on historical facts, it's fiction...

The fact that the other games didn't have that dynamic, in regards to women, doesn't make it out of place. In the other games, the main villain of the game wasn't a nation of slavers, so there was no need to delve in to the social structure of how they operate.

If future Fallout games are expected to strictly stick to what was in the original games, that doesn't leave much room for growth of the series... The Legion is no more out of place than the Shi or the Hubologists, or 30's style mafia families.

 

[DemonNick]

We've had raiders and slavers before, and that same logic on women as child-bearers would apply to them, yet it didn't. Enter the Legion, and it does. Like I said, one of the many reasons the faction doesn't fit into Fallout lore.

This logic is really faulty because it makes two really, really bad assumptions.

Firstly it assumes that all raider tribes should have identical, parallel development that should lead to them having interchangeable social norms. This is ridiculous on the face of it.

Secondly, it assumes that the Legion naturally developed, whereas if you talk to Caesar he makes it clear that everything about the Legion is contrived in a highly specific way as part of his plan for it to merge with and be moderated by NCR. Plus, autocratic leaders have always historically used the cult of hypermasculinity to ensure social and military order.

But yeah, you're right. There's absolutely no way that the legion fits into the universe of Fallout. After all it's an aggressive army that expands itself by assimilating a specific subset of wastelander into itself, and it's led by a charismatic and educated megalomaniac whose plan is to create a strong, but inhuman, order that can withstand the savages of post-apocalyptic life.

There's absolutely NOTHING like that in ANY fallout game ever.

 

[Yellow]

In Fallout: New Vegas, gay characters just … are. Which is how most gay people exist in real life, too. If you’ve grown up watching too much television, you may think that gay people are all lisping, mincing crossdressers who constantly talk about how gay they are, and more often than not try to murder a heterosexual best friend who spurned their gay advances. Unfortunately for you, gay people generally aren’t like that in real life. They’re normal, and as boring as straight people are.

Mmm, not quite true. At my liberal arts college there is a large percentage of gay people and some do act completely normal, but most have at least one characteristic to clue off others that they're homosexual (a specific way they walk, dress, talk or another subtle mannerism)

 

[Thomas de Aynesworth]

Anthropologists are the last person I would ask about taxonomy, and every anthropologist I know disagrees with your assessment of "race", by which you mean ethnicity.

How many anthropologists do you know? Do you think you know enough anthropologists to make a sweeping claim that they all disagree with my assessment of race - which you, quite frankly, do not know.

Hell, they'll use the word because that's normal, but they'll always put it in quotation marks in that typical smug anthropologist way of indicating they disagree with a concept, like "radical Islam" or "failed state".

Anthropologists generally oppose the classical concept of "race", or just your buddies?

In a biological sense specieism is an apt term simply because the races can't intermix, but that definition is useless since both super mutants and ghouls are infertile anyway. Biology isn't exactly fitted to define radical mutations which bring forth a single-generation race, but the fact that they are radical mutations of a species means they are easier to slot in as a race than as a new species.

It's not useless at all.

If tomorrow a fossilized skeleton of a Neanderthal-Sapien hybrid were found, there would still be a Homo sapien and Homo neanderthalensis. Just the same if say two creatures that can obviously reproduce, such as, oh Pan paniscus and Pan troglodytes, we can still see that they are both considered separate species, and will always.

But, uh, what difference does it make? Whether they're species or races, Fallout clearly took racism as we define it now and transplanted it to racism towards ghouls and super mutants.

None, because racism is a stupid concept that holds no true meaning. Things like discrimination, prejudism, etc. exist in Fallout, but due to the fact that ghouls and super mutants are not sapiens, it can hardly be lumped under the Trotskyite catch-word racism. Speciesism is a more apt term to use.


If I were to taxonomically define ghouls and super mutants, they would fall under the Homo genus, but would be separate species. Like Homo superior and Homo inferior. I wonder what those ghouls would think of that?

I do agree that the creators of Fallout use the speciesism between humans, super mutants and ghouls as an allegory to racism, don't get me wrong. But other than some Shi calling you lǎo wài, there is no racism to speak of.

 

[Crni Vuk]

(a specific way they walk, dress, talk or another subtle mannerism)

Alright, and you really think this are special traits conected with homosexuality like a "heterosexual" male can not act girly ? Or a heterosexual female manly ?

We have to get away from this "the" homesexual thinking because in my eyes its questionable to seperate in hetero and homosexuality regarding a persons sexuality. Its a preference in some way and one that is not even really understood neither geneticaly nor from the personality. People have a character and certain preferences. To talk about the preference in sexuality is like asking why someone dislikes the taste of meat since he was a 2 year old baby (and those people exist like my sister which almost vomits from the taste of meat). Many see those gay parade and might think the gay population is generous in their sexuality which is not true yes there is a "culture" around it but its wrong to call that all a "gay" culture. There are many to say "conservatives" among gay people which think that what they do in the parade is wrong now if its wrong or not is a not the point, point is that there is not really a typical characteristical "gay" since it depends more on how the society feels about homosexuals then the indivuals like for example comunities which do not even know about sexuality and just see it as naturaly certain societies living in south america for example do not have terms for homo, hetero or bisexuality as its natural for them to simply try what they like and some stick with either the one the other or both. Its natural for them.

 

[Ausir]

If tomorrow a fossilized skeleton of a Neanderthal-Sapien hybrid were found, there would still be a Homo sapien and Homo neanderthalensis. Just the same if say two creatures that can obviously reproduce, such as, oh Pan paniscus and Pan troglodytes, we can still see that they are both considered separate species, and will always.

Actually, Neanderthals are often classified as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, a race or subspecies, not a separate species, as there is evidence of fertile interbreeding. And the classification of many species as separate is often based on tradition more than anything else. Traditional taxonomy is not really as exact as some people might think, and barriers between different species can actually be rather blurry.

If I were to taxonomically define ghouls and super mutants, they would fall under the Homo genus, but would be separate species. Like Homo superior and Homo inferior. I wonder what those ghouls would think of that?

Actually, sterile mutants of a given species that cannot reproduce are mostly classified as just that - mutants, and not as a new species.

Races exist within the human species already. Hell, races exist within the Super Mutant population (Nightkin).

Nightkin are a caste, not a race. The difference is not genetic.

 

[Per]

Traditional taxonomy is not really as exact as some people might think, and barriers between different species can actually be rather blurry.

I just had a flashback to the rare entries contest...

 

[fedaykin]

Mmm, not quite true. At my liberal arts college there is a large percentage of gay people and some do act completely normal, but most have at least one characteristic to clue off others that they're homosexual (a specific way they walk, dress, talk or another subtle mannerism)

Did you start to notice these "mannerisms" before, or after you were told that "a large percentage" of people in your college, or specific people, were gay? I'm also curious to know how exactly you determined that a large percentage of people in your college are gay?

 

[Makagulfazel]

Like Homo superior and Homo inferior.

How'd this discussion change to the topic of Neil Patrick Harris and Tom Cruise?

 

[gumbarrel]

(a specific way they walk, dress, talk or another subtle mannerism)

Alright, and you really think this are special traits conected with homosexuality like a "heterosexual" male can not act girly ? Or a heterosexual female manly ?

No, it's not a special trait exactly, but homosexuals will act in ways that distinguish them form heterosexuals, since they need to send signals to other homosexuals that they are, well, homosexual.

Think about it - if you are gay, how are you going to attract other gays, unless you send at least a subtle hint?

Acting like a regular guy doesn't work, since then potential partners would have to blindly flirt with random males and ask them if they are gay or not. Doesn't really work.
But certain subtle mannerisms that give out just enough work great.

certain societies living in south america for example do not have terms for homo, hetero or bisexuality as its natural for them to simply try what they like and some stick with either the one the other or both. Its natural for them.

And yet the majority of tribals are still hetero, just like in developed nations.

And aren't you basically saying that it's a choice, lol? "they try what they like and some stick with it"...

And no, it's not "natural" for them, unless you think that being forced to fuck a guy by your tribe is "natural". If that's natural, then forcing gays to fuck women in western societies is natural too.

People are born with genetic predisposition to be sexually attracted to either the opposite or the same gender. The majority get to be hetero and that's just how it is with humans.

 

[mattchaos]

I disagree in this particular instance. It's talked about several times about how the Legion won't use women as soldiers because they are more valuable as child-bearers or slaves. That practical fact, combined with propaganda and the dogma practiced by the Legion, explains the sexist attitude male Legion soldiers feel towards females.

I didn't say it wasn't explained. Everything about the Legion is explained. That doesn't mean it suddenly makes sense design-wise, it doesn't mean it suddenly "fits".

We've had raiders and slavers before, and that same logic on women as child-bearers would apply to them, yet it didn't. Enter the Legion, and it does. Like I said, one of the many reasons the faction doesn't fit into Fallout lore.

Which is a flaw in Fallout's design (in my opinion) but is explained very well by the gameplay : as far as choice and consequences go, your initial choice of sex and color has to have no impact on the difficulty of the game and the only way to do that is by removing sexism and racism from the universe.
It is also a case of political correctness, not in the game lore, but at customer level: a lot of player tend to play some enhanced version of themselves in the game.
As women will tend to play women, you don't want your customer to be reminded of sexists attitudes in the game because they could suffer from those attitudes in real world.

For those reasons I think that yes, whatever are the explanations in game sexism and racism are out of lore for Fallout, adding them is an enhancement as they are more logical considering a post apocalyptic settings, but an enhancement that doesn't fit original design.

 

[Thomas de Aynesworth]

Actually, Neanderthals are often classified as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, a race or subspecies, not a separate species, as there is evidence of fertile interbreeding. And the classification of many species as separate is often based on tradition more than anything else. Traditional taxonomy is not really as exact as some people might think, and barriers between different species can actually be rather blurry.

Personally, I would not classify ghouls and super mutants as humans. Nor do I consider neanderthals humans, none of my peers do either, I might add.

Actually, sterile mutants of a given species that cannot reproduce are mostly classified as just that - mutants, and not as a new species.

New species arise from mutation. That's how it works. Generally it takes millions of years, but the FEV and radiation sped things up just a little.

Nightkin are a caste, not a race. The difference is not genetic.

I respectfully disagree. Their skin coloration would be genetic, - as the Stealthboy radiation would have altered their genetic makeup in this way. Their intelligence, superior speed and strength to regular mutants would also be a genetic difference.

 

[SharkClub]

Nightkin are a caste, not a race. The difference is not genetic.

I respectfully disagree. Their skin coloration would be genetic, - as the Stealthboy radiation would have altered their genetic makeup in this way. Their intelligence, superior speed and strength to regular mutants would also be a genetic difference.

I'm having a hard time working out if you just attempted to Actually™ Ausir.

EDIT: Skillcheck failed, I guess.

 

[Ausir]

Personally, I would not classify ghouls and super mutants as humans. Nor do I consider neanderthals humans, none of my peers do either, I might add.

Even if you do not consider the Neanderthals to be the same species as us (even though current evidence points to there being fertile interbreeding between them and the Homo sapiens sapiens and to 1–4% of the genome of people of Eurasia coming from Neanderthals), technically all members of the genus Homo are humans. What exactly is the definition of a species that you are using, then?

New species arise from mutation. That's how it works. Generally it takes millions of years, but the FEV and radiation sped things up just a little.

Actually, new species arise only from mutations that do not make the mutants sterile.

I respectfully disagree. Their skin coloration would be genetic, - as the Stealthboy radiation would have altered their genetic makeup in this way. Their intelligence, superior speed and strength to regular mutants would also be a genetic difference.

Do you consider victims of radiation sickness in our world a new race, then? Also, not every illness that changes skin pigmentation is genetic. And they are more intelligent, stronger etc. than most other mutants because only the best of the Master's soldiers became the Nightkin. If a slow and stupid mutant was exposed to a stealth field for a longer period, its skin would also change, but it would not become any smarter or faster. And they were not really better in these regards than many that were not Nightkin, like the Lieutenant or Marcus.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

I respectfully disagree. Their skin coloration would be genetic, - as the Stealthboy radiation would have altered their genetic makeup in this way.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. People with artificial tans are a different species, then?

Their intelligence, superior speed and strength to regular mutants would also be a genetic difference.

Uh? Weren't they handpicked by the Master and given the stealthboys because they were the best of his army?

Edit. Ack, too late.

 

[Ausir]

Weren't they handpicked by the Master and given the stealthboys because they were the best of his army?

Of course, which means that soldiers in elite units in real-world armies are also a different race from regular troops!