Fallout: The Frontier - Released!

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by The_Proletarian, Jan 15, 2021.

  1. RangerBoo

    RangerBoo Resident Schizo Poster

    Jun 15, 2015
    I also love what went through the minds of the devs with the Legion and Enclave. I imagine that it goes something like this.
    Devs: "Enclave are an evil, fascists, racist Trump supporter power fantasy."
    Players: "But what about the Legion? I mean, they literally crucify people and treat women like breeding stock."
    Devs: "No, the Legion are fine as we made them progressive unlike the Enclave! Look, they have a black woman as a officer!"
    Players: "One, that is lore breaking and two, just because you have a black woman committing evil acts for the Legion doesn't make them progressive. True progress would be them not crucifying and enslaving people. That however will be against the Legion's character as a faction. But you know what faction was progressive and had women and POC in their army? The Enclave!"
    Devs: "Autistic Screeching."
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  2. 1Punman

    1Punman It Wandered In From the Wastes

    177
    Jan 29, 2021
    I salute to those folks, for getting through the torture and boredom.

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  3. 1Punman

    1Punman It Wandered In From the Wastes

    177
    Jan 29, 2021
    Weren't romans the original fascists by the definition of the word, and Legion is LARPing as them. I don't understand their thought process.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  4. RangerBoo

    RangerBoo Resident Schizo Poster

    Jun 15, 2015
    This is the logic of those who get their politics from Discord, Twitter and Reddit. Not a sane one in the bunch. What is funny is that even in New Vegas I believe that Caesar refers to himself as a fascist. However this can be explained as:
    1. The devs never played a Legion character, talked to Caesar or even played New Vegas for that matter.
    2. Many on the mod team, like Odinsword, have a Slave-Master, Domination fetish so Legion gets a pass with them. Just write them to be progressive hipster Portlanders just like the mod authors and everything they do is fine. The Legion are just misunderstood art students after all.
    3. They wanted to make some grand statement about fascisms and Trump supporters like every other insane social justices obsessed faggot on the internet. I maybe a foaming at the mouth loon with a hair trigger temper but I would never want anybody, regardless of their political beliefs, to feel unwelcomed when they play my mods. My job is to entertain not grandstand. Shame that these idiot mod authors didn't get the memo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2021
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  5. 1Punman

    1Punman It Wandered In From the Wastes

    177
    Jan 29, 2021
    To be honest, I came here to mock and ridicule the devs, not to feel sad about what could've been.
    tenor (1).gif
     
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  6. RangerBoo

    RangerBoo Resident Schizo Poster

    Jun 15, 2015
    Oh, I want to mock and ridicule them too. The hubris they showed. It was like Icarus flying into the sun and we all know how that story ended.
     
  7. 1Punman

    1Punman It Wandered In From the Wastes

    177
    Jan 29, 2021
    Instead just falling into the ocean as Icarus, they were propelled by jet engine in to the asphalt .
     
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  8. megamike15

    megamike15 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    125
    Mar 30, 2016

    it does not help that i learned that the legion route was written by NazotheDark. a guy that made a whole video essay about how much the someguyseries is trash and it's humor has no place in new vegas because he hates fallout 2 and is gate keeping.

    he got backlash for that video and of course he deleted the video like the coward he is.

    then you go play his mods and you find out he can't mod for shit as all three of his mods are average at best. and he goes on and on about how someguy broke lore but then you remember he was involved in the progressive legion in the frontier.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  9. 1Punman

    1Punman It Wandered In From the Wastes

    177
    Jan 29, 2021
    As a wise man once said...

    491.jpg
     
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  10. megamike15

    megamike15 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    125
    Mar 30, 2016
    the frontier makes alot more sense when you know who was on the dev team.

    rikkurikku made death's last whisper which had a half human half deathclaw hybrid waifu. wrote the deathclaw sex scene.

    NazotheDark had a whole gang of female kings in his newest mod that serve no point. he wrote the legion route of the frontier.
     
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  11. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    That wasn't what Ulysses was saying in Lonesome Road. This is signalled by him quite literally saying he doesn't blame you in his dialogue.
     
  12. megamike15

    megamike15 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    125
    Mar 30, 2016
    people seem to miss the point of lonsome road. Ulysses just wanted someone to blame as hopevilles destruction really effected him.
     
  13. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    Sort of but not really. He's definitely trying to make sense out of the senseless but it's not about blame, as the player can outright say it's insane to ascribe moral responsibility to the courier for the divide and he replies that he doesn't.
     
  14. Norzan

    Norzan So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Apr 7, 2017
    Holy fucking shit, what a way to completely not understand what the Legion is about. The writing in this mod, i swear. This is the last faction that you should even attempt to do this.
     
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  15. cordelionreaver

    cordelionreaver Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    410
    Nov 29, 2015
    Then why does he want to nuke the Courier's chosen faction? Because he found about the Divide because of you? A action the player didn't do and the character doesn't remember.
     
  16. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    He wants to nuke the Long-15 regardless of who you side with. He plans to bleed out NCR by destroying their most vital trade route and cutting them off from the Mojave, which in turn also stops the Legion in its tracks and halts their momentum - bringing them to an early collapse (Because he believes that the Legion will collapse when it runs out of steam, i.e if they defeated NCR and reached the sea, the same would happen), and then letting the Mojave and the rest of "The West" stir and fly a new flag in the wake of both factions dying out.

    He doesn't blame the Courier for the Divide's destruction - he views the Courier as carrying an unintentional life lesson/message - that one individual can change the course of history, 'make or break a nation', as the Courier did at the Divide (By killing off what he thought was going to become a new nation). Then you get into the metaphor stuff which is a bit convoluted with his choice of the Long 15 being perfect because it's the way Couriers travel through NCR (as you did extensively) and it's "your home" for that reason, so there's a sense of cosmic/poetic justice in it.

    The only personal animosity he has toward the player is that he thinks you're careless, basically the archetype of the Fallout protagonist - wander into places, change the course of their history and then leave without any investment or reflection on it. Which is something you can prove him wrong on in your final confrontation via Faction Rep.
     
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  17. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    974
    Dec 6, 2016
    Perfect, this is it. I will favor your message and post the link whenever I have to explain to someone about how wrong they are with this dlc.
     
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  18. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Long-winded response here. It's also a layman's response, I'm by no means a proffesional, and if anyone is they can feel free to correct me on any details I might get wrong:

    It's kinda inherently anachronistic to try and call Classical Era states "Fascist" after 20th century ideologies which did not yet exist.

    Perhaps you could see parallels, but given that Rome existed from 753 BC to 476 AD and had a constantly changing political landscape for the period it was around, you could probably find evidence of Rome being whatever political ideology suited your personal interpretation of it, given the timescale and all the major political upheavals that happened within it.

    Mussolini tried to play up a lot of the Roman Heritage of Fascist Italy, especially through public artworks, but this was largely an aesthetic technique used to try and justify fascism by using past states.

    There's multiple arguements you could make against Rome being fascist:

    Firstly being that to talk about Rome having a singular political ideology at all is inherently misleading: Rome started off as a Kingdom, which was overthrown to make a Republic, which was overthrown in to a Dictatorship again, which then after a period of Civil War became a weird semi-democratic semi-dictatorial structure under Augustus, followed by centuries of Emperors, convrted to Christianity and then eventually deciding to partition in multiple different ways, eventually settling on the East/West divide. Some Emperors were also Philosophers, writing their own treatises on what government meant, most famously Marcus Aurelius who wrote extensively about Stoic philosophy. To make a case like "Rome was Fascist" or "Rome was Liberal" or whatever, you'd have to make the case that every single period of Roman History, or even the governing styles and philosophies of every single Roman Emperor conformed to that idelogy.

    Secondly, what we usually associate with Fascism is it being Xenophobic, Ultranationalist, Hyper-Authoritarian and Hyper-Traditionalist. Now, you could make the case for Authoritarianism, though I'd respond that making that case would be a flawed analysis given that Rome existed prior to modern conceptions of liberalism and human rights, so arguably all of Rome's neighbours would also fall under that definition, and given that since the Republic period Rome had Civil Law, Courts, the right to Trials, ect., it was arguably less authoritarian than many of it's contemporary states.
    As for the Traditionalism and Xenophobia, the Romans had much more of a "Whatever works" approach to traditions and other cultures, their attitude shifting based on what suited their needs. There are cases for instance, of them engaging in Genocide. Typically though, the Romans were much more likely to respond to conquered cultures by adopting their traditions and intergrating them in to the structure of the Roman State: because y'know, this is actually a very efficient way to govern a vast empire that incorporates multiple different cultures: typically cultural inclusion makes your imperial subjects less likely to revolt. If modern Fascists held the same beliefs they do today, and lived in the Roman Empire, they'd probably be disgusted by how regularly Rome changed it's traditions to incorporate conquered cultures.

    You could make the case that individual figures had ideologies which resembled a form of proto-Fascism. The figure I'd make the case for is Augustus: He never took on any official monarchial titles, rather insisting on being called "First Citizen" or "First among Equals", while at the same time using his sway in the Senate to be granted several lifetime positions as a Commander, Tribune and Censor, and regularly considered himself more as a speaker for the Roman people rather than a leader. This is kinda similar to the structure of Fascism: dictators placing themselves in power indefinitely, but the propaganda not treating them as such but rather as voices of the Nation(which is of course, inherently circular: you claim to speak for the nation, yet are yourself deciding what the nation constitutes and believes).
    There's also the fact that Literature during the Augustan period tended to have pseudo-fascistic qualities when discussing natures of the state: the Poet Virgil famously wrote philosophical treatises about human beings and natural subservience to authority using Bees as an allegory, which resembles Fascist political ideology quite strongly. He also wrote the Aeneid: an attempt to replicate Greek Epic Poetry, which situated Rome as being descended from the survivors of Ancient Troy, in an attempt to justify Rome as being a consistent state that followed from the traditions of Heroic Era Greece(Which was at the time was considered the height of civilisation). This is another trait of fascism: trying to tie yourself to some ancient great civilisation, and treat your rise to power as an attempt to recreate that civilisation.

    However even with all this in mind, it would still be something of a misnomer to call Augutus a fascist, given that the Augustan period had very different goals to modern Fascism. Modern Fascism tends to be reactionary and traditionalist, whereas the Augustan period was more about re-establishing what Roman Governance meant in the wake of the collapse of Republicanism, and decades of Civil War.

    Anyway, one thing that I think's an interesting take-away from this is that what makes Legion a good faction in New Vegas, IMO, is precisely their selective reading of Roman History. It kinda rings true to actual Fascism. Mussolini did the same thing, taking aesthetics he liked from Roman History and using them to imply a rebirth of ancient civilisation. That's kinda the whole point: Legion, like all fascists, kinda ignore the vast scope of the historical era they're dealing with, and instead summarise it as sort of "Whatever personally suits our claims to be the successor to this civilisation"


    Also: You're right in pointing out the irony of the modders not letting you play as the Enclave because they're fascist, but also not considering the Legion as such: given that JESawyer has actively stated that he wrote Legion around Umberto Eco's essay "Ur-Fascism", an essay about the inherent contradictions in fascism.

    Like, when literally the designers of the game said they wrote Legion around being showcases of the contradictory nature of fascism, it's hilarious that the Frontier modders are acting as though that's not the case.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  19. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    It's also worth noting that Ulysses is also written as being deliberately hypocrtical in his carelessness criticism because he is guilty of the exact same thing in his portrayal as being another player character type. All of the DLCs are you cleaning up the mess that he leaves through his wandering 'adventures'. He directed Elijah to the Sierra Madre, he mentored the White Legs and led them in genociding the New Canaanites, he was the one who woke up the Think Tank from their 'loop' they were trapped in and made them aware of the outside world.
     
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  20. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    My Ulsyess hot take:
    Ulsyess.png

    Like honestly, I respect people who argue back and forth about Ulsyess's motivations: "He was motivated by vengeance", "Actually he specifically doesn't blame you", "He's deliberately written to be a hypocrite". I do not have the patience to properly become an Ulsyess lore expert.

    If the writers wanted us to take this character seriously, IMO, they shouldn't have made him have the most annoying speaking style of any character in any Fallout game "A Metaphor...Message is conveyed...Talks in clipped sentences"

    Which would be bearable if it was actually conveyed in some way other than walking through a road shooting deathclaws, and occasionally being stopped for a half hour to listen to a man rant at you. That is a very bad way to commuicate a character's underlying motivations and philosophy, and tbh, the game didn't do a good enough job convincing me that it's worth understanding him as a character.
     
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