Fanatic for the Enclave - Glory to the Enclave

[BigBoss]

Racists, in fiction or in real life, do not get the right to demand respect for their views and opinions.

This.

The Enclave's policy is completely, utterly insane. They consider themselves to be the one master race that is supposed to survive, while condemning everyone outside their organization to death.

Its policy is entirely racist. You try to relegate it to just being about color, but that's untrue. Racism is, at its core, the belief that there are distinct types of humans and that some kinds are better than others. The Enclave fills the description to the letter and then some. They divide humanity into two types: pure humans (them) and subhumans (everyone else).
[/i]

There is no winning with this guy. You know he will just bring in the "well it can't be racism because racism is one human hating another for being different, but the people of the Wasteland aren't human".

I am concerned, albeit a video game ideology or not, someone thinks genocide is a justifiable course of action.

It never, ever is, and that's not just a matter of opinion, it's something history has taught us pretty fucking bluntly.

This.

Oh, yes comparing real world events with events and organizations that occur in video games is totally not going overboard.

Actually, no it is not. People compare their current argument to real world realities and history all the time.

Anyhow, I respect others' beliefs,

You are denying your own beliefs. You don't respect others beliefs, because if you did, you would respect the Wastelands belief that they have the right to live also. In fact, they struggled against the horrors of a nuclear war that in actuality was brought on them by the US Government and had nothing to do with the common man for centuries. They have damn well earned their right to live.

you may call me insane, sociopathic, compare the ideals with that of Adolf Hitler and other things just to make it sound like it's wrong to side with a fictional government in a video game.

Fictional video game or not, you came unto this board basically saying you support massive genocide if it was for "the right reasons" or "the betterment of humanity". There is definitely something wrong with that.

What makes us human is not on the outside, it's inside us.

For once I agree with you. To a point. What makes us human is not how we look, nor how our genetics look, but its what we do and how we act that defines us and our humanity. I would even go so far as to consider Ghouls humans. Mutations and radiation exposure. do not take humanity away, real life scientists (and Fallout ones) have proved this time and again. No matter how much our genetics change, we all still will always retain our humanity. But what defines us as human? I guess when we get down to brass tacts, that is the argument.

However, the people of the Wasteland are living intelligent life, just like those in the Enclave. They have the ability to love, show compassion, and even anger and hatred. They have the ability to learn and think intelligently. Their genetics still show all the signs that they retain their original humanity, however that they have adapted to survive in conditions forced upon them by a nuclear war brought upon them by their beloved "US Government". The wastelanders are more "human" than the Enclave.[/quote]

=================

Also, the genetics of the human race does not even matter to the Enclave anyways. If it did, they would not have slaughtered all the "pure-strain humans" in the vaults with no mercy. The only reason they were called "near-humans" was because they were no part of the Enclave and didn't hold the same "values" and "beliefs". So, to the Enclave, even if you have retained pure human DNA, untouched by radiation, if you don't follow them or their beliefs, your not worthy to be called human.

If they did give two shits about any "real-humans", they wouldn't have ordered all those horrific vault experiments (on, "pure-strain humans") for what they called "to secure to future of humanities survival".

The fact was, is they needed an easy way to wipe out all opposition in the US (and for all we know, the world), without taking casualties they knew they couldn't afford.

==================================

Now, you say they are nothing like the Nazis. Really?

Both believe in a "pure, Master Race"
Both believe in Social Darwinist theories, such as "the physically and mentally weak should die, while the strong survive"
Both believe in the total control of the people, the concepts of Totalitarianism
Both justified genocide on massive levels by saying it was for the "betterment of humanity".
The Enclave justified the execution of Wastelanders to retain the purity of their own idea of the "Master Race", while the Nazis justified the execution of the Jewish, Slavic, and Russian people to retain the purity of their own idea of the "Master Race".

I can go on forever.

Man, your a fascist. Maybe not a Nazi, but a fascist (yes, they do differ in many ways).

And if you can't figure out why the mass execution of millions is wrong, then something is seriously wrong with you, and your ideals.

 

[BonusWaffle]

The enclave is no different than any other invading force looking to colonize. "reasons" are numerous beyond count, from "purifying" humanity to "saving" people from their government, it all comes down to needing resources and a place for their babies. When a society does well they have lots of kids and use up more resources. They then need to expand their territory, and if there is already someone else there, they are going to have to make a choice, kill the people there and take it for themselves, or let their own people starve to death in poverty. The enclave is no different than any other group in history, they are just in a different situation.

 

[Oppen]

The enclave is no different than any other invading force looking to colonize. "reasons" are numerous beyond count, from "purifying" humanity to "saving" people from their government, it all comes down to needing resources and a place for their babies. When a society does well they have lots of kids and use up more resources. They then need to expand their territory, and if there is already someone else there, they are going to have to make a choice, kill the people there and take it for themselves, or let their own people starve to death in poverty. The enclave is no different than any other group in history, they are just in a different situation.

You could blend in, though.
Also, with their ideas of purity, they should try to avoid exposure to the wasteland, since it's still mutating people (Arroyo's tribe got out of the vault quite a few years after the war, and in that 80 years become mutated enough to deserve death, according to Enclave's standards), so they can not live there. That's just a reason, outside of any morals, why Enclave's idea is nonsense. The other is survival. People out there is mutated because that mutations made them able to survive. "Pure strain humans" are unable to survive, at least without becoming "mutants".

Well, but the human race is surviving, even without the Enclave.

Different views, technically the ones surviving now aren't human. Don't you worry though, I'm sure the Enclave will come back again and finish what they started, I am hoping that they are still alive somewhere in Chicago.

As far as I remember, two individuals are considered the same species (biologically speaking, not morals) if they can reproduce and give fertile offspring. Roughly, the requisites for that are: physionomical compatability, i.e., if one has a vagina, the other needs an exposed penis, and that kind of thing, they should be able to copulate; same chromosome count, and similarly defined loci (loci is something like the position a given gene takes into the chromosomes); these ones are related to the fact in meiosis there is crossing over, which is a switch of certain segments of DNA between complementary chromosomes; if there is a different number or if genes occupy a different section, the offspring will be sterile, since they'll form incomplete gametes. Since radiation caused mutations are pretty much random, the probability of them happening the same way in two people are negligible. That means, the fact they are still fertile and their children are fertile supports with a good chance the idea that no relocation or complete deletion of genes happened, but that mutations were local instead. In conclusion, they can give fertile offspring with people from the Enclave. So, yeah, biologically, without any morals, Enclave are humans IMPLY wastelanders are humans. Technically.

 

[zegh8578]

Here is a wonderful quote by our President, Dick Richardson:
"If there was another way-but there isn't. No price is too high for the survival of the human race."

But there IS another way!
The other way is to stop.
That is the whole point.

When all reasonable argumentation has been eliminated, and all you are left with is are self-contradictory or misguided justifications, then you must stop. That is the "other way".

Interestingly you define yourself as a "fanatic", and a "fanatic" is one who refuses to stop despite all his justifications having been shot down as utterly illegitimate. You seem aware of this. This confuses me, and makes me question how serious you really are about this, and how much of this is just immature provocation.

 

[Hassknecht]

Well, but the human race is surviving, even without the Enclave.

Different views, technically the ones surviving now aren't human. Don't you worry though, I'm sure the Enclave will come back again and finish what they started, I am hoping that they are still alive somewhere in Chicago.

As I said, how is being human defined?
Humanity changes all the time. Modern humans are slightly different from medieval humans and so on.

Regarding transhumanism, the Master's Unity was actually way more transhumanist than everything the Enclave did.
The Enclave is by design against every kind of progress. That's what they were designed for; They're the villain from the past, kind of like ghosts from the War that haunt the world.
Their time is over, they already destroyed the world. Yet they still cling to their petty, arbitrary standards and try to force their view on the world as if nothing happened.
The Enclave are a great villain. But they're not to be admired but rather be pitied.

 

[EnclaveForever]

Bottom line is, if you're accepting and promoting Enclave's racial policies, congratulations, you've just joined the ranks of shaved human trash spurting intellectual detritus. You're supporting wholeheartedly a prejudiced, vile ideology that nearly cost the lives of millions of human survivors. An ideology identical in principle and practice to one preached by the Nazi regime.

There is no policy that requires members of this forum to respect racism. Even if it's in a video game.

Racists, in fiction or in real life, do not get the right to demand respect for their views and opinions.

The difference is, at the end of the day, nobody is actually dying, these wastelanders are fictional and completely digital.

Also, you think I'm trash for my support over a faction in a roleplaying game?

Such a shame.

I did have some hope for these forums, though I'm sure the users here do not represent the majority of the community, but from my present observations, this is just about as nonconstructive bashing based off simple morality and the whole "you can't judge if people can live or not" as I've seen on Wikia (which fans are constantly bashed for their beliefs), their virtual, relax.

Examples of highly aggressive and immature (though subjective to my opinion on what defines "immaturity") bashing from you:

racist fucknuggets
jingoistic freaks
shaved human trash spurting intellectual detritus
retarded ideology

I do admit, the third one down shows a very interesting use of adjectives.

I was simply sharing my love and fanaticism for the Enclave, you're not a mutie, there has been no nuclear war, let alone any extreme mutation to that shown in the Fallout series, so I'm not going to be preaching actual genocide in the real world.

Always Faithful.

 

[EnclaveForever]

Interestingly you define yourself as a "fanatic", and a "fanatic" is one who refuses to stop despite all his justifications having been shot down as utterly illegitimate. You seem aware of this. This confuses me, and makes me question how serious you really are about this, and how much of this is just immature provocation.

I am absolutely serious, I have been in love with the Enclave for nearly a decade. Just because the mass believes it's wrong does not mean it is. Do not confuse opinions with facts.

As for my awareness over the fact that the Enclave is clearly not justifiable in this society's standards, it does not effect my standards or methods of justification over my view of the Enclave. I am a patriot, always have been and always will be. You are not, that is fine, I have no issues with people who do not like the Enclave. I do not think you're evil, trash, stupid, idiotic (insert nonconstructive phrase here) for having different opinions from mine.

Always Faithful,
God Bless the Enclave.

 

[EnclaveForever]

Man, your a fascist.

I would argue what defines a "fascist"..no why bother, I clearly fit your definition and I am proud to be that definition.

Anyhow, you guys are welcome to discuss further about the Enclave, but this thread was simply sharing my fanaticism over them. Never meant to offend anyone, but I will be giving no further comments as I feel it won't provide any form of purpose and just cause more negativity towards myself. I am sure you will understand, if you do not, I am sorry, but there is nothing I can do.

If you're a fellow patriot and wish to discuss further about the Enclave, I recommend you create another thread or if it's directly related to my own views expressed in this post and you wish to receive a response from me, send me a private message.

Thanks for sharing your opinions, it has been interesting and for the most part constructive.

Purity or death,
God Bless the Enclave.

 

[zegh8578]

You are not, that is fine

My patriotism has nothing to do with America.

And this whole thing looks like you're just fan-boy-ing over the Enclave. You have been given in-depth, detailed and quite patient examples as to why your logic is inherently flawed. All you do is bounce back at your original arguments:

We tell you "survival is not the issue"
you go "it's for survival"
We tell you "there is no 'truth' in genetics"
you go "pure humans!"

And your little comment up there just shows your lacking ability to think outside the box, you are barely even capable of considering that people exist outside America, or that "patriotism" can sometimes be applied to non-America countries

Are you even aware that countries change? I mean, what entity should I be most patriotic to? Norway, the Kalmar Union, Sweden, Denmark, Hålogaland, Ladeland or Nazi Germany? All these, at some point or other, have ruled the land where I find myself in.
If we go by the oldest, then my full allegiance should go to Hålogaland, even if it no longer exists, since anything else would be a defeatist treasonous attitude?

By now I'm not really interested in your input here, since it's gonna be a broken record, but... you know... take some new ideas into your head. It's good for intellectual growth.

 

[BonusWaffle]

Hålogaland never existed while you lived, why would you swear loyalty to it? You swear loyalty to the group that helps you the most. Would be pretty stupid for me to swear loyalty to the Souix while the united states (government and society) protects me from criminals and foreign invaders, and provides me with an incredibly easy system for getting food, water, shelter, and cool little gadgets that make my life easier. Thats why patriotism exists, because you have a good thing going and you want to preserve it, not some retarded notion of "being born there"

 

[zegh8578]

Hålogaland never existed while you lived, why would you swear loyalty to it? You swear loyalty to the group that helps you the most. Would be pretty stupid for me to swear loyalty to the Souix while the united states (government and society) protects me from criminals and foreign invaders, and provides me with an incredibly easy system for getting food, water, shelter, and cool little gadgets that make my life easier. Thats why patriotism exists, because you have a good thing going and you want to preserve it, not some retarded notion of "being born there"

Because Hålogaland was the entity which my ancestors swore all their loyalty to.
Technically "Norway" is an invading enemy. By allowing my allegiance to this later invader, I am betraying my own ancestors.

I am of course being rethorical, and trying to make a point: Nothing is stagnant. The logical thing IS to be loyal to the currect rule, the same way as the logical thing IS to accept change in environment - including change in genetics.

 

[well-known stranger]

I'm just curious, EnclaveForever:

If the fallout world was a reality, would you still support this idea of a justified genocide to preserve the enclave's idea of a pure human?

Or is this just playful roleplaying and appreciation for a game's villain? I don't see you as a troll or anything because now you are backing off from your main stance that the enclave has the right idea. You're now saying 'oh well it's just a video game stop being mean guys'.

It's a very serious issue and stance to take, I hope you realize that people are being so incredibly opposed to your ideas not simply just to be mean, but because you're talking about something inherently very real that many people are very opposed to. And it's kind of scary.

I will give the Enclave credit in that they were excellent fucking villains. I loved the Master and he was a sympathetic villain, which is often more interesting. But the Enclave were just future evil nazis waving american flags begging for repeated shots in the groin via BB gun. I had no respect for them, as a child when I first experienced them or as an adult now. I do agree with you that it should have been a choice to support the Enclave in the end. Fallout 1 had dark endings like that which were amazing and just left you feeling sick to your stomach, but they were there, and the more choices in an RPG the better.

 

[Gaspard]

shouldn't this discussion really be in the Role Playing forum? here it seems to be heading toward something really ugly

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

but by exposure to minute quantities of airborne FEV. If Curling-13 FEV was as sensitive to mutant genes as Enclave scientists believed, I think it would be a fair wager that it would have eliminated a number of Enclave personnel as well as mainlanders upon its release.

You're making some mistakes there.
Enclave has inoculation for FEV.

Richardson: You could try, I suppose, but soon the staff of the Enclave and Navarro will be inoculated.

If you wanna complain about Enclave, better take target at their racism and fascism policy, instead of their logic.

Different views, technically the ones surviving now aren't human.

What the hell? Why they aren't humans? Becaue some of them got little radiation? It's like talking, asian people aren't humans because they have some differences from the caucasians or so.

So, those who survived nuking at Japan, ceased to be human? Shit.



And great logic by the way. Supporting racism in game MEANS that you're have some sort of racism ideology. If you would create racist character and try to roleplay him, no problem, but if you're loving Enclave by yourself, then something is wrong with you.

 

[Hassknecht]

So, those who survived nuking at Japan, ceased to be human? Shit.

Well, the world of Fallout has endured a little bit more than just radiation: The constant background exposure from the „wild“ FEV strain caused some mutation in basically every living thing.

And great logic by the way. Supporting racism in game MEANS that you're have some sort of racism ideology. If you would create racist character and try to roleplay him, no problem, but if you're loving Enclave by yourself, then something is wrong with you.

Well, not really, you can support a racist ideology in a game without doing so in real life. Maybe the circumstances of the game make some form of racism preferable as opposed to the real world.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Well, the world of Fallout has endured a little bit more than just radiation: The constant background exposure from the „wild“ FEV strain caused some mutation in basically every living thing.

So people with some FEV in their blood can't be considered humans?
Even if they are basically humans, because little contact with FEV change nothing?
Yep, all humans, who got that mutation from FEV are normal humans...., it only changes their future encounter with FEV... with is also pretty unlikely.
But duh, they're different from US, they should be killed.

Maybe the circumstances of the game make some form of racism preferable as opposed to the real world.

Actually we see that form isn't preferable, maybe only if you're fan of holocaust.

 

[Hassknecht]

Well, the world of Fallout has endured a little bit more than just radiation: The constant background exposure from the „wild“ FEV strain caused some mutation in basically every living thing.

So people with some FEV in their blood can't be considered humans?
Even if they are basically humans, because little contact with FEV change nothing?
Yep, all humans, who got that mutation from FEV are normal humans...., it only changes their future encounter with FEV... with is also pretty unlikely.
But duh, they're different from US, they should be killed.

Hey, I just wanted to point out that most people in Fallout had a little more damage done to their genetic material than just radiation I certainly don't agree with classifying them as non-human. The whole point of Fallout 2 was to move on from the past and to override past notions of what is human.

Maybe the circumstances of the game make some form of racism preferable as opposed to the real world.

Actually we see that form isn't preferable, maybe only if you're fan of holocaust.

I know. My point was that not everytime someone is a racist ingame he or she'd be a racist in real life. Following racist ideologies in Fallout, though, is kinda against the whole point of it.
The Enclave were not a villain one was supposed to sympathize with, not like the Master. The Master had a noble idea and good intentions, but his methods were extreme and flawed. Nonetheless, one could understand his vision and maybe agree with it.
The Enclave on the other hand are not supposed to be liked or understood. They're mad to the core. You're supposed to like some of their people, because they are just humans, too, but not the idea, not the ideology.

 

[Surf Solar]

This thread and especially the OP made me

 

[Akratus]

This thread and especially the OP made me

Completely normal, in the Bethesda forums.

 

[Mameluk]

This thread is basically dead, but I'd like to add my two cents.
The Enclave was the best villain Fallout ever had.
Not the Unity - despite how interesting the concept and Master were, that faction was still typical, cartoonish villains.
Not the Legion - they were something fresh, interesting, but also rushed and incomplete. If only more time and locations were given to the Legion, I'd call them my faves.
Not the Calculator, because the concept was boring. Really. Tactics were cool but the notion of different races cooperating to defeat robots... Too cliche.

Enclave were the scariest, the most intriguing and the deepest faction in all Fallouts. What made them so good was that they were, simply, people, with their better and worse units, old world ghosts that burned the world and came back to claim whatever was left. That's what in my eyes made them the most evil - they're not genetically engineered freaks like the mutants (except Horrigan) or luddite social-darwinists (Legion), they are descendants of people who hit the red button and who now plan another, delibarate genocide on the mainland, while at the same time cooperating with the locals, until they're no longer needed. Not to mention their ties to vault experiments.
That's not forced conversion to mutants like the Unity or resetting the clock like the Legion. That's a plain evil, power-armor clad middle finger pointed at you until they blow your head off with a plasma rifle.

And because of that, I wish the Enclave to die a good death. They had one twice - once at the oil rig, second time in New Vegas. They deserve to leave the stage to the sound of fireworks. This is why I loved how New Vegas handled the concept, the remnants having their last word going all guns blazing at Hoover Dam. They were the good folks believing in loyalty, not genocidal freaks in charge hiding on their oil rig.

I wish Enclave will never again appear in any Fallout. They did a good job as a faction. Let them sleep.

(forgive me any spelling/grammar mistakes, it's past midnight here and I'm sleepy)