Fanatic for the Enclave - Glory to the Enclave

[Visajala]

Sorry if considered to be a necroposting, but I want just to say "Hi!" to the topic-starter. You are not alone here! We the Enclave supporters are scorned and disapproved among the Fallout community, but we still exist and stay faithful to our chosen faction. And I believe Enclave will return in further games, if not in Fo4 than later, as it's an integral part of the Fallout universe, a kind of a well-known "trademark" which will always attract gamers, and let's remember that without Enclave (pre-war government) the whole story would be impossible. They just can't die so easily, they must have other, even more powerful bases, don't forget about Chicago! Even if Raven Rock is destroyed it doesn't mean the President's death, this is not an easy killable human. In all probability Eden must have reserve copies of oneself. Lets await a great Chicago base and our President safe and sound!

Concerning their "racist" ideas I don't think they are just primitive racists. Thereby they don't hate any mutants, they hate "Wasteland mentality" and "Wasteland spirit", they want to get rid of it together with all Wasteland monsters and then turn Wasteland into a normal country. What is a proof?
1) In Fo2 it was possible to serve in the Enclave for non-enclave people.
2) Frank Horrigan from Fo2 was a supermutant, but he was initially in the Enclave and was really trustworthy.
3) Anna Holt from Fo3 is a wastelander, but a gifted scientist, therefore useful.


Enclave doesn't hate all Wastelanders only because of mutations, the key is in the cultural aversion. If they want to restore the world, they need 2 things - safe space and normal citizens. Most of the wastelanders cannot be such citizens due to the absence of education and wild, cruel, obscurant mentality. BoS stands apart here, they are quite a freaky organization, but I'd like to unite them with the Enclave. Except BoS and some civilized oasises like Vegas the Wasteland is a real hell full of dreadful violence, slavery, cannibalism and all sort of disgusting things. Enclave is technically advanced but small faction, they cant' control all the Wasteland to provide an order everywhere. What will they do with the bulk of primitive and aggressive tribes? Send them to the school and teach good manners? They have no resources for it. So they choose an evil but the most effective way of clearing the Wasteland of savages and raiders.

Releasing the virus they kill 3 birds with one stone:
1) All monsters, including aggressive supermutants and ghouls are eliminated.
2) They get rid of savages, raiders - communities than cannot be civilized quickly.
3) All other enemies like BoS and NCR army are killed.

I don't approve all their previous actions and would also change this plan a bit, initiating some kind of a "talent search" program in order to find more scientists and skilled, educated people, and give the fev-cure to the civilized communities. Anyway it would be more logically correct to hire wastelanders instead of risking their own lives.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

They just can't die so easily, they must have other, even more powerful bases, don't forget about Chicago!

Who cares about bases, if you don't have manpower at all?


{273}{prs54}{You could try, I suppose, but soon the staff of the Enclave and Navarro will be inoculated.}

And what happened when all Enclave guys were in Oil Rig (besides soldiers from Navarro)?

Those from F3 are just remains, beaten twice by BoS.

 

[Visajala]

If supposed there are more bases than Oil rig/Navarro/Raven Rock, it would be hardly possible to gather all the staff on the Rig for inoculation at one time, if only we are not talking about closest area only (which is Rig and Navarro). They would just deliver medicines to the distant bases than bring all the people to the Rig.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

That's the problem.
The only Enclave people in 2242 were those in Oil Rig and Navarro.
Enclave people from Fo3 are onle those, who escaped from Oil Rig via vertibirds.

If there are other bases... why Navarro stuff remained at Navarro, and after losing it to NCR, they just went elswehere, but not to the outposts?
Why Raven Rock and entire bases from Fo3 were empty, before the fall of Oil Rig?
And so on.
Autumn Senior didn't even met with the soldiers from Navarro. He just fleed to the Eastern Coast, and that's why Brandice from Fo3 or Remnants from FNV don't know that there was second group of survivors.
Facts.

 

[No Man]

It's likely that Navarro personel was supposed to be inoculated this way, instead of bringing them back on the Oil Rig. I don't really see how you tied 'be inoculated' to 'be transported on the Oil Rig'. The dialogue stated that the personel of those two bases would be inoculated. This implies rather strongly that there is no Enclave beyond the Oil Rig and Navarro.

1) In Fo2 it was possible to serve in the Enclave for non-enclave people.

You mean the slaves or the test subjects?

an integral part of the Fallout universe, a kind of a well-known "trademark" which will always attract gamers

That is the problem. The awesome thing about Fallout Universe is it's constant evolution. The world isn't stuck in a post-nuclear dark ages stagnation - it moves on, rebuilds itself. Whole nations and factions rise and fall - the Unity, the Enclave, the BoS and likely the NCR and the Legion. The series moves on. Using such 'trademarks' leads to stagnation - a cartoonish routine of a villain being defeated only to return a week later and be defeated again. The alternative is to make a 'rogue division' that can just ignore all previous lore and be there pretty much to provide a 'familiar feel'. Ask yourself - do you really want the Enclave or just dudes in black PAs and a stylish logo?

clearing the Wasteland of savages and raiders

I take this opportunity to remind you - this means complete eradication of almost everyone on the globe: http://fallout.gamepedia.com/FEV_Curling-13. FEV Curling-13 was airborne.

Enclave doesn't hate all Wastelanders only because of mutations, the key is in the cultural aversion.

{267}{prs51}{Oh, I don't relish this decision. If there was another way- but there isn't. No price is too high for the survival of the human race. If you were human, you'd feel the same way.}
{291}{prs61}{So what? If your kind is allowed to flourish it'll mean the end of the human race as we know it. We can't allow radioactive freaks to squeeze humans into extinction.}
{293}{prs62}{Not at all. Look to the future. Sure muties and men could get along for a while, but before you know it, the numeric pressure of your kind would tell. No, a line must be drawn in the sand - the buck stops here.}

Richardson makes it quite clear that he doesn't consider wastelanders human, this is more than 'cultural aversion'.

 

[Visajala]

I suppose it happened because of secrecy, most of the local stuff didn't know about the location of the other bases in order to prevent enemy invasion, if some factions manage to get this information. Fo3 bases are just military bases, not well adapted for constant living there. I think there must be special Enclave vaults, where more people live, some vaults can be on deserted islands in the sea (kind of Rig bases), some may be even in other countries/continents. Enclave is originated from the pre-war government, and it was a very mighty organization, the most well-prepared to the war and it's consequences.

 

[Visajala]

The dialogue stated that the personel of those two bases would be inoculated.

Under "being transported" I meant there was no use in gathering all the stuff from all bases in one place, but I was really inattentive while replying, sorry.

This implies rather strongly that there is no Enclave beyond the Oil Rig and Navarro.

Why? That implies only the Oil Rig is responsible for inoculating Navarro people. Other bases have other responsibility area. Oil Rig is considered to be the "main office" of the Enclave, and it's destruction doesn't necessarily defeat the whole Enclave. The same as if someone explodes the main Coca-Cola office, and then destroys 3 Cola factories, it wouldn't mean the inevitable collapse of the whole Cola business-empire. Absolutely identical situation with the Enclave) And it's unlikely that pre-war government (now known as Enclave) is much weaker than the Cola company. They definitely had foreseen such losing episodes as Oil Rig explosion and had prepared lots of hideouts. Now they must heed previous mistakes and change their tactics to the wait-and-see attitude, meanwhile increasing the power.
Concerning the lack of population I may suppose they had already solved this problem by means of artificial reproduction, having invented some kind of incubators.

1) In Fo2 it was possible to serve in the Enclave for non-enclave people.

You mean the slaves or the test subjects?

Enclave recruits wastelanders in Fo2. One of the ways of fulfilling the BoS task is to be recruited for getting the helicopter draft.

Using such 'trademarks' leads to stagnation - a cartoonish routine of a villain being defeated only to return a week later and be defeated again.

Being the "trademark faction" doesn't mean stagnation. All factions are changing with the course of time, some are getting stronger, some are degrading, some may merge with other, each has its own unique destiny. There will be no sense in keeping them invariable. Enclave will change a lot too, it will learn by own and others mistakes and develop into a real powerful faction with the wise rule. They won't be just a "cartoon villain" any more even if they dont give up their plans (of course they won't). They will be a decent sideable faction with their own pluses and minuses.

I take this opportunity to remind you - this means complete eradication of almost everyone on the globe: http://fallout.gamepedia.com/FEV_Curling-13. FEV Curling-13 was airborne.

Taking the Oil Rig explosion into consideration I implied using the Eden's version of the virus, which must be put into water and kill all monsters and mutants on the Capital Wasteland. Curling-13 was really not the best variant.

Richardson makes it quite clear that he doesn't consider wastelanders human, this is more than 'cultural aversion'.

Of course it's more than cultural aversion, but this factor may also play a big role in their attitude, especially if applying to civilization revival. I never stated that they don't refer wastelanders to mutants, however that doesn't prevent Enclave from breaking their own rules if needed.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

All people of Enclave went for inoculation to Oil Rig.

And here's my proof:

Before the 2242 and entire The Project (with FEV) Oil Rig was home to government, some scientist and their security. All other people were living in some other places: because of this -> http://web.archive.org/web/20011114212204/http://vault13.net/articles.php?id=29

But they just went to Oil Rig for inoculation because:

Taking into account non-permanent residents, the Enclave oil rig was home to between a hundred[20] and as much as a thousand inhabitants.[21]

20:
Casino patron's dialogue: "{329}{}{I felt a great disturbance... as if a hundred evil bastards on an oil derrick suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. Strange.}"

21:
Charles Curling: "{241}{}{It's not pretty. You should leave as soon as possible. But I'd rather have the weight of a thousand on my conscience than several hundred-thousand. Our time is through here. We had our chance.}"

We need to treat this as a fact, unless you have some proofs (as mine)? Not only assumptions?

Enclave recruits wastelanders in Fo2. One of the ways of fulfilling the BoS task is to be recruited for getting the helicopter draft.

Fake assumptions... they treat you as some pure human recruit from other enclave outpost. But not non-pure. And considering that everyone are coming to Oil Rig, either Navarro, it isn't weird that fooling them was so easy for Chosen One.

 

[TheChosen1]

If only you knew how much I hate fanatics.

 

[No Man]

Looking at your avatar and feeling like making a bad pun: With a burning passion?

 

[RetroAmerica]

So the more this thread goes on, the more I can't help but think we're either getting a front row seat to seeing a rather strange internet poster have a mental or nervous breakdown, because he cannot handle a fictional organization being criticized.

Also, what's with the almost political fervor of the initial post, he's treating the organization as if it were or had been real?

 

[TheChosen1]

Looking at your avatar and feeling like making a bad pun: With a burning passion?

 

[No Man]

So the more this thread goes on, the more I can't help but think we're either getting a front row seat to seeing a rather strange internet poster have a mental or nervous breakdown, because he cannot handle a fictional organization being criticized.

Also, what's with the almost political fervor of the initial post, he's treating the organization as if it were or had been real?

That's roleplaying. I think EnclaveForever wanted to make an RP-like thread in which people would choose a side and argue in a 'what would be this character's argument' fashion instead of a regular discussion. This can actually work out very well if a group of people does it - I remember there was a Dunmer-Argonian discussion on slavery on a Polish TES forum. They made it clear it's more of an RP thing than an actual discussion. Hell, the Argonian side (which was outnumbered) acually lost. The best argument there was 'us owning slaves is like you owning cows or sheep - if you condemn us, you should also condemn yourself', which illustrates the point perfectly. This would obviously not work in a real discussion, but it does from a rather foreign points of view in such a pretended discussion. Sadly, such a discussion requires people, who know what is going on - be aware, willing and able to take part in it, because otherwise it ends up with a bit of a moral outrage.

a front row seat to seeing a rather strange internet poster have a mental or nervous breakdown

That, I'd like to watch. I might be a bit of a sick fuck.

 

[Visajala]

All people of Enclave went for inoculation to Oil Rig.

And here's my proof:

Before the 2242 and entire The Project (with FEV) Oil Rig was home to government, some scientist and their security. All other people were living in some other places: because of this -> http://web.archive.org/web/20011114212204/http://vault13.net/articles.php?id=29

But they just went to Oil Rig for inoculation because:

Taking into account non-permanent residents, the Enclave oil rig was home to between a hundred[20] and as much as a thousand inhabitants.[21]

I'll repeat my supposition that if they were [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"scattered across the planet and the continent[/FONT]" it would be inconvenient to gather all of them in one time: too many people, too dangerous etc. Acting this way they might have invited people from other places by turn or just inoculate the population of closely set places and send the inoculation via ships/planes to the distant ones. It would be easier, sparing and safer.

This phrase [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"scattered across the planet and the continent[/FONT]" also can serve as kind of a proof of the Enclave further existence.

Future predictions hardly can be made without assumptions

Fake assumptions... they treat you as some pure human recruit from other enclave outpost. But not non-pure. And considering that everyone are coming to Oil Rig, either Navarro, it isn't weird that fooling them was so easy for Chosen One.

Maybe I'm mistaken in this point. People who played Fo2 convinced me this is true and I read in the gameplay description the same. I wonder why doesn't anyone from the Enclave stuff ask the ChosenOne where is he/she from? Why don't they suspect someone is able to kill an Enclave soldier and acquire an armor this way? It would be rationally to check every new recruit for not being a spy or saboteur.

 

[Visajala]

If only you knew how much I hate fanatics.

Why? Fanatics can be dangerous if they are involved into aggressive political/religious movements, but what harm can be done by a person who claims oneself to be a fan of a game faction?

we're either getting a front row seat to seeing a rather strange internet poster have a mental or nervous breakdown, because he cannot handle a fictional organization being criticized.

Who is "a rather strange internet poster" with "mental or nervous breakdown" here, who "cannot handle a fictional organization being criticized"? The topicstarter or me? I've just reread the posts of the user EnclaveForever and found nothing to be associated with "mental or nervous breakdown". This user is polite and gives logical justifications for expressed opinion. Or are these my posts full of craziness? You are free to think or to write whatever you want, it's your right.

he's treating the organization as if it were or had been real?

Many people play Fallout (and other games) as if it were real or another real universe (if taking the multiverse theory for granted. In our world it is still a mere computer game, which doesn't prevent us from sincerely loving, admiring and supporting definite factions or characters.

 

[RetroAmerica]

If only you knew how much I hate fanatics.

Why? Fanatics can be dangerous if they are involved into aggressive political/religious movements, but what harm can be done by a person who claims oneself to be a fan of a game faction?

we're either getting a front row seat to seeing a rather strange internet poster have a mental or nervous breakdown, because he cannot handle a fictional organization being criticized.

Who is "a rather strange internet poster" with "mental or nervous breakdown" here, who "cannot handle a fictional organization being criticized"? The topicstarter or me? I've just reread the posts of the user EnclaveForever and found nothing to be associated with "mental or nervous breakdown". This user is polite and gives logical justifications for expressed opinion. Or are these my posts full of craziness? You are free to think or to write whatever you want, it's your right.

he's treating the organization as if it were or had been real?

Many people play Fallout (and other games) as if it were real or another real universe (if taking the multiverse theory for granted. In our world it is still a mere computer game, which doesn't prevent us from sincerely loving, admiring and supporting definite factions or characters.

I'm not aware of anyone who in any way, shape or form takes Fallout or any other video game as if they were real. Those who do, evidently are suffering from some sort of condition, or don't understand the difference between fantasy and reality, and therefore should seek some form of professional treatment.

 

[Visajala]

I'm not aware of anyone who in any way, shape or form takes Fallout or any other video game as if they were real. Those who do, evidently are suffering from some sort of condition, or don't understand the difference between fantasy and reality, and therefore should seek some form of professional treatment.

I think it's hardly possible to take computer game or any other fictional story as real (not in conjunctive mood), but people may "live" in the fictional world, which means they spend plenty of time there, not only while gaming/reading/watching the story but also writing fanfiction, discussing the subject on forums, roleplaying etc. To some extend they live in fantasy, though they understand this is just fantasy. Sometimes this "life" in the fictional world integrates the real life. Zealous Tolkienists may serve a good example of such lifestyle.

 

[Emperor]

It's all about the Enclave... when someone is going to be LegionFoverer?

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

What is this goddamn obsession with having the Enclave all over North America?!

 

[TheChosen1]

he's treating the organization as if it were or had been real?

Many people play Fallout (and other games) as if it were real or another real universe (if taking the multiverse theory for granted. In our world it is still a mere computer game, which doesn't prevent us from sincerely loving, admiring and supporting definite factions or characters.

1) When the fuck did I say that?
2) If I did ever say that then I agree with myself (whoever he is)
3) There is a very thick line between roleplaying and actually believing that a faction is real and defending it's morals (or lack of them) if you believe that the Enclave is a real faction, then I suggest seeking psychiatric help.
4) What is there to admire in a corrupted and fascistic faction?