Fanatic for the Enclave - Glory to the Enclave

[Walpknut]

They define purity by being the Enclave and they advocate for the genocide of "inpure" people. How is that any different?

 

[EnclaveForever]

They define purity by being the Enclave and they advocate for the genocide of "inpure" people. How is that any different?

It's different because they don't define purity by pigmentation. Yes, it's a similar ideal, but there is a major difference. I am hugely against racism, but am (clearly) fanatic in regard to Enclave philosophy.

 

[Walpknut]

Oh sorry, when it isn't a matter of pigmentation is justifiable, of course.

 

[EnclaveForever]

Oh sorry, when it isn't a matter of pigmentation is justifiable, of course.

This was never about justification, this was about survival. Anyhow, you clearly disagree with the Enclave (which is alright), and I have no further comments regarding their similarities with present-day racist organizations as that is outside the canon and universe of the series.

Always Faithful.

 

[Walpknut]

I see no survival value in limiting genetic diversity and dousing the mainland with a deadly disease that could easily mutate into something their vaccine can't counter act.

 

[EnclaveForever]

I see no survival value in limiting genetic diversity and dousing the mainland with a deadly disease that could easily mutate into something their vaccine can't counter act.

We have different opinions, you don't see the value of survival in that case, but I do. I have tried all I can to explain my point, I do see yours, we can't go any further on that.

I understand you may have strong feelings regarding "genetic diversity" and most certainly genocide, but there is nothing anyone can do to change my beliefs towards the Enclave (hence "fanatic"), especially if justification or morality is brought up.

I will not attempt to sugar coat my thoughts and beliefs towards the Enclave, I am proud to be a fan of the Enclave, and all their beliefs that follow it. There is nothing moral about genocide, but then again, survival (my opinion) was never supposed to be moral anyway.

Always Faithful, E pluribus unum.

 

[Lexx]

I find your view of the Enclave rather strange, especially considering how lol they are presented in Fo2.

Besides, the Enclave is surviving. If they wouldn't have tried to do genocide, the chosen one would never have destroyed their oil rig.

Instead of going all "I keel u", they could have instead started to support local communities on the west coast. It wouldn't have killed them, it wouldn't have mutated their bodies, it wouldn't have made them more "unpure" than they already are. In fact, they could have become a better BoS and started shaping the world with help of their advanced technology, but they decided to be even worse than the BoS- not just not charing their technology, but also killing everyone who isn't part of their special group.

 

[zegh8578]

Also, whos survival?
The enclave has survived fine. Why would they need to "ensure" their survival? If they weren't such aggressors, nobody would be out to threaten them in the first place. They could chillax in NCR.

The wastelanders survival? They are surviving fine. Thanks to mutation.

Enclave ambitions are arbitrary, and therefore they are a "clear cut bad guy", they want to kill because they are bad guys. They are designed to be antagonists, like I tried to sarcastically express with my Sauron comment.
They are meant to be evil, and therefore their choises - although explainable to some degree - are _meant_ to go too far.

When the Chosen One explains to the doctor how mutation is a part of all survival he isn't talking out his ass. He is making the moral point, and teaching the fanatical(!) Enclave a lesson about reality: There is no need for killing, and the only reason to keep this up, is for madness and blood-lust.

 

[Hassknecht]

When the Chosen One explains to the doctor how mutation is a part of all survival he isn't talking out his ass. He is making the moral point, and teaching the fanatical(!) Enclave a lesson about reality: There is no need for killing, and the only reason to keep this up, is for madness and blood-lust.

Indeed.
How is „pure human“ defined, anyway? A direct descendant of pre-war humans without contamination by FEV and radiation? Ok, but what about the environment on the Oil Rig? Limited fresh food, limited sunlight and so on. All those factors constantly change all humans, even the Enclace.
Also, there's the natural background radiation and cosmic radiation, all leading to random mutations from time to time (although rarely, of course).
What I'm trying to say is that one cannot define „pure human“ as there's a lot of genetic diversity in any given group to begin with.

The Enclave isn't exactly transhumanist, at least not in the sense in that the word is used today. Transhumanism as of today embraces change and tries to control evolution toward perfection. The Enclave rejects every kind of change and tries to uphold an arbitrary genetic status quo. And their technology is not used for any transhumanist goals, either. The Enclave does not seem to embrace implants or genetic modification, and their power armor is nothing but a tool so far. There are no permanent improvements to humanity made by the Enclave because that is against the Enclave's core belief, that humanity was perfect in 2077. Horrigan is their only transhumanist experiment and most likely their last given their stance on mutants.

 

[BigBoss]

This is basically like saying:

"Though Hitler may have got some shit wrong, I believe he tried to do the right thing with the Holocaust. I mean, to unite the world so that there won't be any more infighting, the Jews obviously had to die".

What the fuck is wrong with you man?

EDIT: I am sick of these "Enclave Sympathizers" trying to justify mass-murder on world-wide or even national levels because it was "for the greater good". These people deserve a shot at life like anyone else. Didn't you stop to think, "maybe we should ask these guys if they think their lives are just horrible piles of shit and are horribly mutated freaks (who look completely normal, but when looking at their genes in a fucking microscope, there is a bit of a difference) who should just die because living in a post-apocalyptic world sucks anyways"

You would classify someone as "sub-human" because what? Because even though they show all the traits of a human, (in behavior and appearance), when you look at their genetics through a microscope it appears different to those who weren't affected by radiation. How many of the Enclave do you think that, after being exposed to massive amounts of radiation would stick their guns in their mouths and blow their brains out because life just wasn't worth living anymore since they were very slightly mutated by radiation (however they still exhibited the behavior and appearance of a human).

No. They would be forced to beg and plead for their lives while their Enclave "brothers" put a gun to their head, finally realizing in the last moments of their life why what they did was wrong and fucked up.

I see no survival value in limiting genetic diversity

Exactly. Is this really any different than racism? Overtime, the evolution of mankind has taken place (due to extreme environmental changes, turned the black mans skin towards a more pale color, as they went further north from Africa to Europe).

Whereas, the Enclave are discriminating against their fellow humans (or in Enclave ideology "near/sub-humans") because of a difference in their genetics caused by a war that was started by their "beloved government" which had nothing to do with the actual people of America, or China, or the rest of the world. It was dictated by a government who, in pre-War times locked up Chinese Americans and did horrible experiments on them, just out of their hatred of Communism. These unfortunate Chinese-Americans just happened to be the victim of circumstance, and war that I believe had little to do with them. The Enclave claim to carry on this "great government". I saw nothing good in the pre-War government, and see nothing good in the post-War government, even if they are the "legal continuation".

Now, what I was trying to say is, no matter how you try to defend it, this is hatred and racism (or geneticism?) The pre-War US Gov showed this very same racism by locking up Chinese-Americans out of hatred for the Chinese Communist Government, probably feeding the same "we have to purge the world of the Commie Bastards" propaganda to those in the government and society that the Enclave does their own people.

The Enclave obviously live by the ideals of
+ Social Darwinism
+ Neo-Fascism
+ Totalitarianism
+ Conservatism

All ideals which I have no love for.

When it comes down to it, this is simply a battle of ideology. Between religious wars (example: today's Holy War) and political ideological wars (example: Cold War), there is no way to win a war like this, because those who fanatically believe in their ideals will take them to their grave. The only way to tip the balance in an argument like this is to bring in morals. The only reason you don't want to is because you know morals provide a losing argument for Enclave Sympathizers.

You know damn well that no matter how much you attempt to defend it, a "we need to kill everyone without remorse so that a small minority breed of humanity can thrive" argument sounds fucked up and horribly wrong no matter how you put it.

I have so much more to say on the subject, but I think its time to wrap it up.

One more thing to say on the subject: In reality, the Brotherhood of Steel is simply a "less extreme" version of the Enclave.

I think Sauron of Mordor is misunderstood. If it wasn't for that pesky author, he would surely have gotten a much better reputation among the readers. Sauron was well versed in what he had to do to unify Middle earth, an effort that would prevent future wars - an inherently noble ideal.

I found myself greatly dissapointed, and full of genuine disbelief, when I was finally informed of the downfall of Mordor, and the destruction of Sauron. I didn't expect that at all.

For a clear cut "dark lord", seeking to destroy all opposition to his world-domination ambitions, to be vanquished in the climax of the good-vs-evil story, does not make a whole lot of sense to me.

I can't believe people didn't get that you were being sarcastic.

 

[EnclaveForever]

This is basically like saying:

"Though Hitler may have got some shit wrong, I believe he tried to do the right thing with the Holocaust. I mean, to unite the world so that there won't be any more infighting, the Jews obviously had to die".

What the fuck is wrong with you man?

Oh, yes comparing real world events with events and organizations that occur in video games is totally not going overboard.

Nothing is wrong with me, I just support a faction in a video game series and you're blowing straight out of proportion. This is exactly what happens to other fans of the Enclave, we just get bashed with the whole "you're an evil bast*rd" lecture.

Just look where you are, "No Mutants Allowed", you'd think they would support efforts to get rid of mutants considering the name is a slight joke of xenophobia. - I am joking of course.

Anyhow, I respect others' beliefs, you may call me insane, sociopathic, compare the ideals with that of Adolf Hitler and other things just to make it sound like it's wrong to side with a fictional government in a video game.

Didn't you stop to think, "maybe we should ask these guys if they think their lives are just horrible piles of sh** and are horribly mutated freaks (who look completely normal, but when looking at their genes in a f****** microscope, there is a bit of a difference)

Enclave scientists have studied for years on genetics and oh yes, I did. That's why I believe it would be important to put the wastelands out of their misery and looks can be very deceiving. What makes us human is not on the outside, it's inside us.

Time to just settle down. Sick of me because I have a different opinion? I don't get sick of people who dislike the Enclave (actually I rely on that, if nobody disliked the Enclave, then there would be nobody to shoot at in the Fallout series, unarmed mutants are not a challenge ), I respect other factions, I respect people's opinions over the factions. If you can't handle alternative views then maybe you should have never clicked on "Fanatic for the Enclave". I will continue to support the Enclave, if you call me evil, I am proud to be evil, I am proud to support all the Enclave's goals and objectives with no question and no forms of doubt. You may call me ignorant, moronic, stupid and any other forms of bashing, but I am proud to be all of them because I stand behind my beliefs firmly and respect the beliefs of others.

I understand you stand strongly by your beliefs as well (especially considering all the use of profanity), but you must understand that this is just about a video game, there is no need to get too upset.

Always Faithful,
God Bless the Enclave, God Bless the United States of America.

 

[EnclaveForever]

When the Chosen One explains to the doctor how mutation is a part of all survival he isn't talking out his ass. He is making the moral point, and teaching the fanatical(!) Enclave a lesson about reality: There is no need for killing, and the only reason to keep this up, is for madness and blood-lust.

Pacifism has always fascinated me, but unfortunately I do not share such beliefs. Sometimes difficult decisions have to be made, they may not be what contemporary society defines as "moral" or "good", but you must do what is necessary for the greater good of humanity.

Here is a wonderful quote by our President, Dick Richardson:
"If there was another way-but there isn't. No price is too high for the survival of the human race."

 

[Lexx]

Well, but the human race is surviving, even without the Enclave. The Enclave isn't doing any good for humanity, except decimating it.

 

[EnclaveForever]

Well, but the human race is surviving, even without the Enclave.

Different views, technically the ones surviving now aren't human. Don't you worry though, I'm sure the Enclave will come back again and finish what they started, I am hoping that they are still alive somewhere in Chicago.

 

[Lexx]

Eh... Yeah, I think that's a pretty lolzy and racist view.

 

[EnclaveForever]

Eh... Yeah, I think that's a pretty lolzy and racist view.

Okay then.

 

[well-known stranger]

I am concerned, albeit a video game ideology or not, someone thinks genocide is a justifiable course of action.

It never, ever is, and that's not just a matter of opinion, it's something history has taught us pretty fucking bluntly.

We are all the byproducts of mutation. What gives the bubble people of the oh so glorious Enclave the right to say what human is and what it is not? Just because it's a belief doesn't justify it. It is a FEAR driven campaign, with weak frail men behind the wheel.

What's interesting I think is comparing this to racism. Boiling it all down, race has little to do with color, right? Skin color is just a mutation that's occurred over time. So we're still all the human race, so it's not really 'racism' it's, I dunno. Even in THIS SITUATION this is not a matter of racism. Simply because, just like your ancestors having a mutation in their DNA that changed your skin color today yet you're still just as human as anyone else, you being exposed to some green goo and growing an extra toe doesn't make you any less of a human, either.

Everyone's just born with different traits. Some are gifted, some are skilled, some are born with poor ideas of right and wrong.

 

[EnclaveForever]

Some are gifted, some are skilled, some are born with poor ideas of right and wrong.

Some believe morals justify everything. I do not believe in right or wrong in the case of morality and just because my ideas are different from yours does not make mine poor.

race has little to do with color, right?

The idea of "races" stemmed from different skin colors. Why do you think racists preach "white power" or whatever color their pigmentation is.

If the Enclave would have won, and maybe some different form of conditioning was promoted in the real world, you may find yourself on the opposite side of the scale than the side your on now.

This is simply about "genocide is wrong because it's wrong and it's not nice to exterminate people", we commit genocide to different species everyday, we just like to think everyone is so special. Forcing someone to live would be much more cruel, than forcing someone to die.

Duty, honor and sacrifice.
Always Faithful.

 

[well-known stranger]

Some are gifted, some are skilled, some are born with poor ideas of right and wrong.

Some believe morals justify everything. I do not believe in right or wrong in the case of morality and just because my ideas are different from yours does not make mine poor.

race has little to do with color, right?

The idea of "races" stemmed from different skin colors. Why do you think racists preach "white power" or whatever color their pigmentation is.

If the Enclave would have won, and maybe some different form of conditioning was promoted in the real world, you may find yourself on the opposite side of the scale than the side your on now.

This is simply about "genocide is wrong because it's wrong and it's not nice to exterminate people", we commit genocide to different species everyday, we just like to think everyone is so special. Forcing someone to live would be much more cruel, than forcing someone to die.

Duty, honor and sacrifice.
Always Faithful.

EDIT: I had a spiel written out here about when is murder okay when is it not blah blah nazis etc but I don't think it really served a whole lot of purpose so I took it out.

I don't actually think you responded to my point on mutation, like, at which point does a person become too mutated to be human, if someone just had naturally growing green hair or some shit, would that make them unfit to live? Do they not deserve a chance at life? I could maybe see someone arguing against super mutants, I wouldn't agree with it, but if they were too out of control and threatened everyone's survival, I could see fighting back and trying to squelch that threat. The problem is though, the wastelanders aren't trying to steal the Enclave's shiny junk or kill them, they just want to live their lives of drugs and sex and getting stung by radscorpions, if they didn't want to that's their right and they can go fuck a floater.

Enclave ideology can be compared to a lot of racist ideas because racist beliefs are typically focused on preservation of what their idea a pure human is. However, mutations are part of human survival and the fact is, the people of the Enclave come from a time that almost wiped out all of humanity, and now they want to bring it back to the way it was? Perhaps mutation is just the natural response to our failures of the past as a species, a coincidental response to survival. The word "human" doesn't define what we are as whole, it sums up what we are today, but we have no idea where we're going next as a species.

 

[Tagaziel]

They define purity by being the Enclave and they advocate for the genocide of "inpure" people. How is that any different?

It's different because they don't define purity by pigmentation. Yes, it's a similar ideal, but there is a major difference. I am hugely against racism, but am (clearly) fanatic in regard to Enclave philosophy.

"I'm not racist, but I support racism."

The Enclave's policy is completely, utterly insane. They consider themselves to be the one master race that is supposed to survive, while condemning everyone outside their organization to death.

Its policy is entirely racist. You try to relegate it to just being about color, but that's untrue. Racism is, at its core, the belief that there are distinct types of humans and that some kinds are better than others. The Enclave fills the description to the letter and then some. They divide humanity into two types: pure humans (them) and subhumans (everyone else).

There is nothing rational about the Enclave, or their "philosophy." It's prejudice based on some minor, irrelevant changes in the DNA structure of people outside the Enclave, which doesn't prevent people outside the Enclave accomplishing far, far more than the bunch of jingoistic freaks ever managed to do.

What's worse, they're advocating total genocide of everyone except for them. While I can stand behind Autumn's iron fisted rule of the Capital Wastelands, the insane plan to gas every single human worldwide basing on some kind of retarded ideology is not something any rational person should consider even remotely acceptable, unless they are racist fucknuggets.

Read what you're writing. You're arguing that destroying established societies that are actively rebuilding civilization (the NCR alone number over seven hundred thousand citizens, making it the single largest state emerging from the ashes of the United States), ruining any and all chance that the world had at rebuilding, just to sate the lust for domination of a thousand people is perfectly acceptable, justifiable, nay, it's even good and perfect!

But of course, you're going to dismiss them as non-humans. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Humanity outside the Enclave outnumbers it by a factor of thousands (the NCR alone is about 700x bigger), which means that the Enclave is a small, aberrant population isolated from the rest of the species. If anyone's not human, it's the Enclave.

The Enclave that builds on a racial theory on the level of Alfred Rosenberg, creating a fake ladder of purity with themselves at the top. Ignoring facts. Facts that show that humanity survived and is doing perfectly well by anyone's standards. Facts that completely undermine the Enclave's policies (not that they had any ground).

Bottom line is, if you're accepting and promoting Enclave's racial policies, congratulations, you've just joined the ranks of shaved human trash spurting intellectual detritus. You're supporting wholeheartedly a prejudiced, vile ideology that nearly cost the lives of millions of human survivors. An ideology identical in principle and practice to one preached by the Nazi regime.

There is no policy that requires members of this forum to respect racism. Even if it's in a video game.

Racists, in fiction or in real life, do not get the right to demand respect for their views and opinions.