Father of all bombs

[Brother None]

ok, I see, no point of arguing with you, all I get in response is personal attacks. last couple of post of yours are pure trolling, which you warned about not doing. But I guess you are the führer of this forum so you are more equal than others.

Like I said, my patience is limited, not infinite.

I'm not the one that registered to tell someone he's basically pushing a Russian imperialistic agenda and, apparently, is "the fuhrer". I don't think you have much business pointing fingers.

Especially considering you haven't made any points. Most if not all of your posts have been either borderline insane nationalist ranting or personal attacks. Do you honestly expect me to then talk to you like an academic? If you want to be treated seriously, talk seriously yourself. Don't rant like a lunatic without presenting any evidence to your claims and without replying to any arguments against them, it's nobody's fault but your own that I'm not taking you seriously.

 

[GreyViper]

Wait. Did I miss something? How is Russia's reaction to the missile shields building on their frontier, which is a military act against their country by all definition, worse than the hypothetical covert sabotaging ops of the US? If Russia were doing covert sabotaging ops to disable NATO bases in your country, you'd blow a gasket, but if the US did it, it would be reasonable?

Well id point out if China can live with North Korea making nuke at its doorstep why cant, russian goverment be okay whith shield. Answer politics thats why because N-Korea is a useful tool for China.

You talk as if Russia invaded countries, bombed unfriendly ones or held a knife to someone's throat. I must've missed that, because s far as I know, that didn't happen.

Chechenya again all your examples apply there. A lot of gruesome stuff happened there, done by both sides.

Ah, afterwards? Because, as you know, immigrants tend to have enough money to easily be able to pay for it in the meantime.

actually its not that bad, most of the older generation is retiring, leaving gap into work labor demand. Chances are he/she will get work even if he dosent speak estonian, honestly you cant be picky when you need people with previous work experience.

 

[Brother None]

Well id point out if China can live with North Korea making nuke at its doorstep why cant, russian goverment be okay whith shield. Answer politics thats why because N-Korea is a useful tool for China.

I don't know, didn't the US contemplate attacking NK because it's developing nukes next door to them, not to mention all the UN/US pressure and sanctions?

China doesn't care because it's China. But guess what, NK is also developing nukes on the doorstep of Russia. Russia is comparatively ok with that, because there's no open hostility here.

Chechenya again all your examples apply there. A lot of gruesome stuff happened there, done by both sides.

*grinds teeth and counts to 10*

Chechnya is not related to international political moves and is not in reply to the NATO moving to Russia's doormat. It is completely unrelated to this topic. This is not a difficult point, and it's a point already made. Are you being purposefully obtuse?

 

[fedaykin]

There, I've read all that's been posted so far. I guess it's apt to say I'm embarassed for the behaviour of my fellow citizens...but I've never been good at doing that, so I'm just going to say: don't take these fools too seriously (most of you didn't, which I am glad to see).

Where shall I start, hmm:

Estonia is practically under embargo (oil transit is cut due to "railway repairing" which started week after bronze night).

And why did the embargo start? Because the Bronze Soldier was relocated. The monument is important to the local Russians, since most of their grandfathers fought in WW2. A pretty logical flow of events. Though nothing to do with any Russian conspiracy against Estonia.

russia financed the elements who did the looting and marauding during bronze night.

A half-truth at best. It's not known whether the Russian government financed anything. No evidence for that has been produced so far. The investigation is ongoing.

Russian media constantly attacks Estonia, according to them we are a fascist/apartheid state.

On this, I mostly agree, though you are somewhat exaggerating the matter. Estonia is of a rather passing interest to the Russian media. As long as nothing noteworthy happens concerning Russians in Estonia, or the Soldier, Estonia is ignored. As most medias in today's world, sensations and sensitive subjects like issues connected to nationalism are chosen by the media in order to get as many viewers/readers as possible. There's no Kreml-funded media campaign against Estonia.

our ambassador was attacked but russian law enforcement did nothing.

Another half-truth. They got there a bit late and did not manage to contain the situation fully. They obviously weren't prepared. However, a few days later, police was patrolling the street, it was closed for traffic. I'm gonna be quoting one of Estonia's best read papers, the Postimees. Sorry, but I couldn't find any English sources. It wasn't that well covered by foreign media. Those who don't speak the language, please accept a rough translation. Note that Postimees has a conservative Estonian nationalist slant - just so meson and viper don't accuse me of using Russian propaganda.

Eesti saatkonna kolmanda sekretäri Franek Persidski sõnul [...] «Autoliiklust saatkonna juures veel ei toimu, tänav on miilitsa valve all ja korrakaitsjate koostöö saatkonna diplomaatidega sujub kenasti,»

[http://www.postimees.ee/050507/esileht/siseuudised/258912.php]

[Translation: The Estonian embassy's third secretary Franek Persidski said [...] 'There's no traffic near the embassy yet, the street is guarded by the police, who are smoothly cooperating with the diplomats'.]

Then there were "cyber attacks" which were traced back to russian government agencies.

The statement in bold is an outright lie, and a bold one at that (pun intended). Here's what our Defense Minister said about a week ago:

puuduvad tõendid, nagu oleks Eesti vastu suunatud küberrünnakuid juhitud otse Kremlist või Vene riigiasutustest.
/.../
Ta võrdles küberrünnakuid valitsusväliste organisatsioonide blokaadiga, mida korraldati Eesti saatkonna ümber.

[http://www.postimees.ee/050907/esileht/siseuudised/281251.php]

[Translation: there is no evidence that the cyber attacks against Estonia were directed by the Kreml or Russian government institutions.
/.../
He compared the cyber attacks to the blockade of the Estonian embassy, which was organized by non-governmental organizations.]

Also, an Israeli cyber security expert has stated that the attacks were made by ordinary internet users. Russian blogs offered easy instructions on how to join the attack. (In English: http://www.upi.com/International_Se.../estonia_cyberattacks_the_work_of_a_mob/9674/ ).
The internet is a powerful thing indeed.

yes, russians are not discriminated here.

Half-truth, again. Can you imagine how many times I've been called "tibla" and "vene-russ, kapsauss"? How many times I've had to hear my Estonian friends and acquaintances say things like "those Russians should go back to the hole they crawled out from" and "they should be deported"? And all this despite the fact that I've been born here, have citizenship, graduated an Estonian school and am thus fully fluent in the language (quoting my Estonian teacher: "you speak better Estonian than most Estonians"). No, there's no discrimination...no "official" discrimination by the government, that is. But you and I both know Estonia is not a tolerant country. We know that the people talk badly about Russians. Well I've got news for you, buddy. THAT is also discrimination. Ignoring the fact doesn't make it disappear.

I also know Estonian history well enough to know that Estonians have been conquered many times by numerous countries, most recently the USSR. Thus I understand where all that anger comes from. Which doesn't make it rational. The USSR is gone. Do you want to pretend it's still here or do you want to have peace between Russians and Estonians?

russian media talks about only russian schools and puts a twist on it

Of course, it's always THEIR media that puts a twist on it. The Estonian media never spins nationalist propaganda, right? OH WAIT.

This is the kind of thing Postimees puts on their front page once in a while: http://www.postimees.ee/170107/esileht/arvamus/239733.php
The article is entitled "I don't hate russians". I'm not going to bother translating, but the article basically says "it's not hate, it's just caution". What's worse, it's written by a 17-year-old. She even has the audacity to claim she's a very apolitical person.

Another example. These articles were both posted on the front page, in large bold letters, one after the other, less than a week before Bronze Night:
http://www.postimees.ee/210407/esileht/kurioosum/256522.php
http://www.postimees.ee/210407/esileht/siseuudised/256436.php
The titles are as follows: "A quarter of Russians believes Sun revolves around the Earth"; "The Russian propaganda machine is preparing provocations for May 9"

Oh no, the Estonian media NEVER puts a spin on things. And it's never ever biased, no sir

well, I dont know about lithuania and latvia but in estonia no russian schools being converted into estonian ones. its impossible to do even if we wanted to. there just isnt enough teachers around who could teach estonian curriculum. Most teachers in russian schools dont know how to speak estonian, let alone teach in it.

Another full lie. You're sure making it a habit. You either don't know what's going on in your own country, not to mention Lithuania and Latvia, or you're spinning the info to make it seem like there's no discrimination.

There has been a reform in preparation for years the purpose of which is to convert Russian schools into Estonian. It has started this year, with grades 6 to 12 having one subject in Estonian: Estonian literature. From now on, one subject will be added every year. Next up: ühiskonnaõpetus (dunno how to translate), music, geography, Estonian history. By 2011 every school will have to choose two more subjects to be taught in Estonian. The end objective: 60% of subjects in Estonian.

Every coin has two sides though. While it's important for children to learn Estonian in order to have better access to jobs and higher education, it's difficult to say if this will cause assimilation or integration. Time will tell. It might just produce people who don't speak either language as well as they should, and have limited knowledge of the history and culture of both.

Its called propaganda...

Listen to yourself. You talk like a conspiracy nut.

public schools are divided by the language. anyone who wants to have their kids schooled in russian can do so.

False. They can't anymore. Read what I wrote about schools above.

That since they don't know how to speak countrys national language and don't want to learn it, they have 0% chances to get into university or get a good jobs.

Hello, my name a Borat, nice meet you. (sorry, I could not resist, back to the subject)
Those that want to, do. Those that don't, don't. Ever heard of freedom of choice? If someone wants to be a dumbass, how can you force him to become educated? And please don't come telling me that all Estonians are smart and go to universities and get good jobs.

SO russian goverment is one thing russian people is another. ANd its the politicans who are playing these games.

I agree, good that you recognize this. Yet you still talk like a conspiracy nut, and your buddy too.
But do you also recognize that Bronze Night was the political game of Andrus Ansip and the Reform Party? I suspect the answer will be "no, it wasn't".

I assure you we dont have anything about blacks, asians or caucasians, what cant be said about our neighbor.

Ha, you sure are a demagogue. You are referring to the large number of neonazi gangs in Russia, am I right? Funny coincidence, this morning I read this: http://www.postimees.ee/130907/tartu_postimees/282838.php (a group of skinheads threw rocks at a black exchange student). We don't get a lot of other races in Estonia, because the few asians and black that come here usually experience at least some verbal abuse at least once during their stay. Most don't report it to the Police. Not that there's rampant racism everywhere, but there is some very obvious intolerance, and Estonia is not free of skinheads.

Internet comments to such articles are also quite often something like: "serves them right, they're not welcome here".

courses themselves arent free but those who successfully pass the citizenship exams will be refunded.

Actually, they are free...but only as of summer 2006. They should have been offered for free long ago.

Chechenya again all your examples apply there. A lot of gruesome stuff happened there, done by both sides.

Iraq. A lot of gruesome stuff happened there as well. Still no WMD found though. No Osama either. Makes me doubt whether it's safe to have the US as world policeman



Finally, one more thing I'd like to say: Russians sometimes also tend to exaggerate what goes on in Estonia. Estonian Russians do so because their feelings are hurt by events such as Bronze Night and the negative bombardment by the press. Russians in Russia do so out of pure patriotism, but often don't really know much about Estonia. Propaganda influences both sides, intolerance breeds intolerance - this is important to recognize.

 

[Tagaziel]

...petition to make fedaykin official Estonian ambassador on NMA.

Yes, that would mean circumventing the Constitution. BUT HE DESERVES IT D:

 

[meson]

And why did the embargo start? Because the Bronze Soldier was relocated. The monument is important to the local Russians, since most of their grandfathers fought in WW2. A pretty logical flow of events. Though nothing to do with any Russian conspiracy against Estonia.

So estonia didnt have the right to move a monument? From a bus-stop to military graveyard. And last couple of years there was more hammer and sickle flag-waving than commemorating the fallen ones. And what about attacking a guy who waved estonian tricolor there. police had to intervene or the guy would have been lynched by the mob.

On this, I mostly agree, though you are somewhat exaggerating the matter. Estonia is of a rather passing interest to the Russian media. As long as nothing noteworthy happens concerning Russians in Estonia, or the Soldier, Estonia is ignored. As most medias in today's world, sensations and sensitive subjects like issues connected to nationalism are chosen by the media in order to get as many viewers/readers as possible. There's no Kreml-funded media campaign against Estonia.

no argument there

our ambassador was attacked but russian law enforcement did nothing.

Another half-truth. They got there a bit late and did not manage to contain the situation fully. They obviously weren't prepared. However, a few days later, police was patrolling the street, it was closed for traffic.

are you kidding me? if the gays or opposition are parading OMON or other law enforcement figures are there at moments notice. it took a month afaik to stop the nashi carneval in front of estonian embassy.

Then there were "cyber attacks" which were traced back to russian government agencies.

The statement in bold is an outright lie, and a bold one at that (pun intended).

no lies, my misinformation, sorry about that. should have read more recent articles.

yes, russians are not discriminated here.

Half-truth, again. Can you imagine how many times I've been called "tibla" and "vene-russ, kapsauss"? How many times I've had to hear my Estonian friends and acquaintances say things like "those Russians should go back to the hole they crawled out from" and "they should be deported"?

this is a two way street you know. How many times I have heard the "kuratõ", "tshuhnaa" and its multiple versions. I have had some close calls just because I am an estonian this is been reason enough to violence. And you should read russian delfi or some local forums (especially during bronze night there were some juicy calls to action).

russian media talks about only russian schools and puts a twist on it

Of course, it's always THEIR media that puts a twist on it. The Estonian media never spins nationalist propaganda, right? OH WAIT.

Another example. These articles were both posted on the front page, in large bold letters, one after the other, less than a week before Bronze Night:
http://www.postimees.ee/210407/esileht/kurioosum/256522.php
http://www.postimees.ee/210407/esileht/siseuudised/256436.php
The titles are as follows: "A quarter of Russians believes Sun revolves around the Earth"; "The Russian propaganda machine is preparing provocations for May 9"

Oh no, the Estonian media NEVER puts a spin on things. And it's never ever biased, no sir

http://wciom.ru/novosti/press-vypuski/press-vypusk/single/4448.html source of the sun story

the other article mentions a pure propaganda film by russians "They swore allegiance to Hitler", no wonder we are paranoid if these kind of things get produced in Russia (or wherever it was made)

well, I dont know about lithuania and latvia but in estonia no russian schools being converted into estonian ones. its impossible to do even if we wanted to. there just isnt enough teachers around who could teach estonian curriculum. Most teachers in russian schools dont know how to speak estonian, let alone teach in it.

Another full lie.

And you really think this plan is achievable? . As I said, russian teachers are not ready for this and the way things are going, this plan will fail miserably, imho. and again my bad for telling outdated info (zomg one year).

But do you also recognize that Bronze Night was the political game of Andrus Ansip and the Reform Party? I suspect the answer will be "no, it wasn't".

No, it wasn?t. Bronze soldier was not to be removed from its place until 9th may had passed. But drunken mob got restless and started destroying property and "shopping" for hugo boss and armani. that night the decision was made to remove it earlier. And its removal was necessary becasue estonian and russian nationalist tended to clash there. Why there wasnt a big outcry for the Himki monument destruction in Russia (did they build supermarket there?)?

Finally, one more thing I'd like to say: Russians sometimes also tend to exaggerate what goes on in Estonia. Estonian Russians do so because their feelings are hurt by events such as Bronze Night and the negative bombardment by the press. Russians in Russia do so out of pure patriotism, but often don't really know much about Estonia. Propaganda influences both sides, intolerance breeds intolerance - this is important to recognize.

agreed

 

[fedaykin]

So estonia didnt have the right to move a monument? From a bus-stop to military graveyard.

Sure, she had the right. But is it reasonable to have a monument moved when you know for sure that this will anger a large percentage of the population and possibly result in rioting?

And last couple of years there was more hammer and sickle flag-waving than commemorating the fallen ones.

The media only started blowing this thing out of proportions a couple of years ago. Before that, it received very little attention, even though groups of war veterans celebrated the end of the war there every year, with red flags and vodka. What, is a bunch of drunken old people a threat to Estonia's sovereignty now?
Do you think they'll quit doing it now that it's been relocated? No way, they'll now do it just out of spite.

And what about attacking a guy who waved estonian tricolor there. police had to intervene or the guy would have been lynched by the mob.

Don't exaggerate. Nobody would have been lynched. There were intentional provocations on both sides. If you ask me, they were all a mob. The Estonian nationalists were no better, with their insults and barbed wire wreaths.

it took a month afaik to stop the nashi carneval in front of estonian embassy.

Actually, a little more than a week. Started around Bronze Night, ended on May 5. But you seem to blow almost every one of your arguments out of proportions, so don't worry about it.

this is a two way street you know. How many times I have heard the "kuratõ", "tshuhnaa" and its multiple versions. I have had some close calls just because I am an estonian this is been reason enough to violence. And you should read russian delfi or some local forums (especially during bronze night there were some juicy calls to action).

Two way street indeed. Just proves that intolerance breeds intolerance. Kuidas koer külale, nii küla koerale, ja vastupidi.

http://wciom.ru/novosti/press-vypuski/press-vypusk/single/4448.html source of the sun story

Yes, I'm aware what the article was based on. I'm also aware that the source was misinterpreted to make Russians stand out as the stupid ones, even though the EU, in fact, didn't score too well either. But that's a whole different topic.

You don't think that the placement of those two articles was intentional? Maybe it was a complete coincidence that an article from the section that features stories as "Donkey testifies before court" was all of a sudden placed on the main page, where this kind of stuff normally never appears, and put beside another one with a very provocative title.

the other article mentions a pure propaganda film by russians "They swore allegiance to Hitler", no wonder we are paranoid if these kind of things get produced in Russia (or wherever it was made)

Yes. It also mentions that the Kremlin "is orchestrating a propaganda war", without stating any evidence. As far as I remember, the film was funded by Russian businessmen.

And you really think this plan is achievable? . As I said, russian teachers are not ready for this and the way things are going, this plan will fail miserably, imho.

Achievable - yes. Difficult - probably. What would you suggest instead? Force all Russian schools to start teaching in Estonian right away? Or close them all down? Hmm, I smell a riot coming.
Do you have a reasonable alternative to propose?

and again my bad for telling outdated info (zomg one year).

Just shows you don't know what you're talking about, most of the time. The fact that it's an internet debate doesn't mean you don't need to at least try to get your facts straight.

Bronze soldier was not to be removed from its place until 9th may had passed. But drunken mob got restless and started destroying property and "shopping" for hugo boss and armani. that night the decision was made to remove it earlier.

Um, it was going to be relocated, sooner or later. The protesters started gathering because they knew it was going to be moved. Seems like a reasonable thing to do if a monument that's important to you disappears under a white tent and people with shovels start going in and out.

I don't like pointless looting any more than you do, but it's not like they came there to steal clothes. People for some reason constantly try to emphasize the looting and ignore the reason why thousands of people came together in the first place. Estonian TV channels showed pictures of the looters for months, even though there wasn't more than a hundred of them out of several thousand.

As for whether it was a political game, I guess that can be debated. But I think Ansip knew full well that this move would guarantee him and Reformierakond many new votes. We'll see in the next election.

 

[Sorrow]

That's interesting. People can gather in mobs and cause disturbances?

How do they do that?
Can it be used for other causes than nationalistic?

 

[Jebus]

Rukshin said: "At the same time, I want to stress that the action of this weapon does not contaminate the environment, in contrast to a nuclear one."

Thank God! This weapon of mass destruction is good for the environment!