Father of all bombs

[meson]

It isn't about 'right' or 'wrong', it's about politics.
Simply put, the fact that Estonia joined NATO *because* they were afraid of Russia is a very, very, very valid reason for Russia to be concerned because this signals very clearly that NATO is an organisaton *against* Russia, or at least being used as such by the Baltic states.

NATO is only against russia if she attacks. there are no NATO installations or troops here, only estonian Kaitsevägi with its mighty force of couple of thousand conscripts and antiquated equipment. And russia should be more concerned imo about the fact why so many its neighbours look for guarantees from west, why they feel insecure and threatened. There would have been no expansion of NATO if Russian relations with Eastern Europe countries had been normal.

 

[Sander]

NATO is only against russia if she attacks. there are no NATO installations or troops here, only estonian Kaitsevägi with its mighty force of couple of thousand conscripts and antiquated equipment. And russia should be more concerned imo about the fact why so many its neighbours look for guarantees from west, why they feel insecure and threatened.

Why are you sidestepping my point? Estonia and other Baltic states are using NATO as a weapon against Russia. Yes, this is a hostile maneuver. There is no going about that whatsoever.

Is it a justified move? Maybe. But that doesn't change anything about the fact that it is still hostile towards Russia.

 

[Wooz]

Estonia and other Baltic states are using NATO as a weapon against Russia.

Eeeh? Nobody's *used* NATO against Russia.

 

[meson]

Why are you sidestepping my point? Estonia and other Baltic states are using NATO as a weapon against Russia. Yes, this is a hostile maneuver. There is no going about that whatsoever.

Is it a justified move? Maybe. But that doesn't change anything about the fact that it is still hostile towards Russia.

its not a HOSTILE measure, its a defensive measure. IMO only way to perceive it as hostile is if you had plans with said countries and now those plans are thwarted because of NATO expansion.

 

[Sorrow]

well, I dont know about lithuania and latvia but in estonia no russian schools being converted into estonian ones. its impossible to do even if we wanted to. there just isnt enough teachers around who could teach estonian curriculum. Most teachers in russian schools dont know how to speak estonian, let alone teach in it. so you missunderstood that article or it had misinformation.

I don't get it... What's the deal with foreign schools?

It isn't about 'right' or 'wrong', it's about politics.
Simply put, the fact that Estonia joined NATO *because* they were afraid of Russia is a very, very, very valid reason for Russia to be concerned because this signals very clearly that NATO is an organisaton *against* Russia, or at least being used as such by the Baltic states.

So? It's still a defensive alliance. Joining NATO is securing freedom of a country.

 

[Sander]

Eeeh? Nobody's *used* NATO against Russia.

Meh, not what I meant.

its not a HOSTILE measure, its a defensive measure. IMO only way to perceive it as hostile is if you had plans with said countries and now those plans are thwarted because of NATO expansion.

You are missing some key points in politics. An arms buildup on your border is always hostile. Similarly, many moves made by the US during the Cold War were hostile towards Russia, and vice versa, even though a war was never started.

 

[GreyViper]

Ah, so that article I read in a Lithuanian newspaper about Russian schools being closed down or made into lithuanian/latvian/estonian schools throughout the Baltic is just a part of Russian imperialist conspiracy. That's nice to hear.

Its called propaganda, its rather common hence my hints how twisted, false information the so called "official" russian media has sent out. The silent war has begun but its not being fought by weapons, its being fought by economic blackmail, cyber attacks, dirt throwing propaganda. Estonia was just a testing ground, where it unfortunately didn't work that well, they screwed up with few things. One they didn't manage to control the mobs they had gathered at bronze night(mob mentality) and they became marauders and looters crying its all in the name of russia. Two russian media got caught pants down when some of the facts were reveled and how most of the acusations were hypocrisy. third the blockade by naziwanabees at embassy that was the bigest mistake of all. Still cant belive they didn't see how far lasting consequences that will have. Ah well their loss is our gain so to speak. Another ironic thing was that Zirinovski was defending estonia, it was like the most WTF moment.

As for the missile shield, the reason russian goverment is so afraid of it, its because it would mean they couldn't bully other countrys effectively anymore. It comes down to this US plan to build missile shield will threaten russias military might by making most of their weapons of mass destruction some what obsolete. Resulting russia sitting on powerful yet useless weapons that cost lot to maintain yet returning nothing.

 

[meson]

I don't get it... What's the deal with foreign schools?

public schools are divided by the language. anyone who wants to have their kids schooled in russian can do so.

ou are missing some key points in politics. An arms buildup on your border is always hostile. Similarly, many moves made by the US during the Cold War were hostile towards Russia, and vice versa, even though a war was never started.

what arms build up?? like I said no NATO installations or troops here. And if russia doesnt fancy NATO why force us into it?

 

[Brother None]

There would have been no expansion of NATO if Russian relations with Eastern Europe countries had been normal.

I'm sure. That said, what has Russia done in response to the expansion of NATRO that can be considered highly unreasonable? Have they invaded nearby countries? Slaughter populaces? Planted bombs in Cuba?

So? It's still a defensive alliance.

Tell that to Jugoslavia. Or even Afghanistan.

Its called propaganda, its rather common hence my hints how twisted, false information the so called "official" russian media has sent out. The silent war has begun but its not being fought by weapons, its being fought by economic blackmail, cyber attacks, dirt throwing propaganda.

Yeah, you guys are just batshit crazy, to be honest. You're seriously not going to convince anyone to take your seriously by frothing at the mouth screaming about a great conspiracy to keep the little guy down.

Seriously, I hate to say this, but I get this every single time I speak with a Baltic person. You guys are just backwards in your international politic attitude, and lack the political acumen to understand the mechanics of any international politics. So instead you just whine and stamp your feet.

Please don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you do. Just realise that every time you do this you make your countrymen look like a bunch of dumbasses by proxy. Saying "russia hasn't changed since the ussr" just shows a lack of historical perspective or political understanding.

And meson, stop trying to troll me or put words in my mouth. I have a lot of patience, but it is limited.

As for the missile shield, the reason russian goverment is so afraid of it, its because it would mean they couldn't bully other countrys effectively anymore.

No, they're pissed off about it because someone is building a missile shield on their borders. Nobody, not the US, not England, not Israel, not China, would be all the Fonz and go "eeey, that's ok, build a missile shield on my border, I don't care" in response to that. That's preposterous. Building a missile shield on the border of a country is the equivalent of building missile bases on the border from a military viewpoint.

 

[Neamos]

snip

Wow, I didn't know there was Russian propaganda in a Lithuanian newspaper. It's great that we have great, unbiased anti-mob, rational thinking fellas like you to tell us what is evil russian propaganda and what is not.

what arms build up?? like I said no NATO installations or troops here. And if russia doesnt fancy NATO why force us into it?

There's a NATO air-craft base in Lithuania.

EDIT:

Yeah, you guys are just batshit crazy, to be honest. You're seriously not going to convince anyone to take your seriously by frothing at the mouth screaming about a great conspiracy to keep the little guy down.

Seriously, I hate to say this, but I get this every single time I speak with a Baltic person. You guys are just backwards in your international politic attitude, and lack the political acumen to understand the mechanics of any international politics. So instead you just whine and stamp your feet.

Please don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you do. Just realise that every time you do this you make your countrymen look like a bunch of dumbasses by proxy. Saying "russia hasn't changed since the ussr" just shows a lack of historical perspective or political understanding.

Hit the nail on the head

 

[GreyViper]

I don't get it... What's the deal with foreign schools?

That since they don't know how to speak countrys national language and don't want to learn it, they have 0% chances to get into university or get a good jobs. SO our big brother claims that they are being repressed no equal rights etc that russian should be second national language.
But yes it were the Lithuanians who got feed up and took the matter into their hands.

 

[Sorrow]

I don't get it... What's the deal with foreign schools?

public schools are divided by the language. anyone who wants to have their kids schooled in russian can do so.

What's the point of existence of such thing?

I don't get it... What's the deal with foreign schools?

That since they don't know how to speak countrys national language and don't want to learn it, they have 0% chances to get into university or get a good jobs.

Damn, I hate such attitude - I can't imagine living in another country and refusing to learn it's language :/ .

 

[Brother None]

That since they don't know how to speak countrys national language and don't want to learn it, they have 0% chances to get into university or get a good jobs. SO our big brother claims that they are being repressed no equal rights etc that russian should be second national language.
But yes it were the Lithuanians who got feed up and took the matter into their hands.

The history of how these Russians got into your country is too long ago to be relevant subject matter to the debate. That leaves you with two options.

Be civilized. Any and all civilized countries do understand and respect the existence of integrated sub-communities. I'm not talking about active immigrants, I'm talking about the Frisians in the Netherlands, the Laps in Finland, the Basques in Spain. Once they're there, a civilized country can deal with them in a civilized manner (well, not the Basques, but still).

Be uncivilized. Kick them all out, put them all in camps or negatively discriminate against their right to be a Russian, which is no fault of theirs. That's what you're doing.

Good show. Go go racist Balts!

 

[Sorrow]

You and what vips? It's pretty lame to be fond of war when you're fucking away, Sorrow.

That's not war. That's a show - a better than Big Brother and Bar !

Now, if you were to give me a gun and martial law...

I don't mind shooting some people too ...
I just think I would need a just cause to do it .

BTW- we HAVE vacuum bombs.

Cool . Let's invade some even more backwards country and try them out !

 

[meson]

Seriously, I hate to say this, but I get this every single time I speak with a Baltic person. You guys are just backwards in your international politic attitude, and lack the political acumen to understand the mechanics of any international politics. So instead you just whine and stamp your feet.

but please share your wisdom - what should our attitude be? Especially in the light of Russias actions lately (I mentioned them on the previous page). Is blackmailing with oil great example of political acumen? Or maybe we whined too much about the cyber attacks, instead we should have praised how patriotic the russian IT-folk are?

 

[Neamos]

But yes it were the Lithuanians who got feed up and took the matter into their hands.

On the other hand, Lithuania gave ALL Russians who lived here, when USSR broke up, citizenship.
Please don't make it look like Lithuanians are the most nationalistic out of all you three.

 

[Brother None]

but please share your wisdom - what should our attitude be? Especially in the light of Russias actions lately (I mentioned them on the previous page). Is blackmailing with oil great example of political acumen? Or maybe we whined too much about the cyber attacks, instead we should have praised how patriotic the russian IT-folk are?

Do you have any idea how hilarious the term "cyber attack" is?

Oh, I dunno, how about "measured response"? How about trying to understand the motives of the country before writing it off as USSR imperialism? How about not propagandising against a country which is simply doing what most countries would? Instead of going all R.E. Pipes on their ass and concluding beforehand that they are the great evil of the 21st century before collecting a stack of propaganda and conspiracy theories against them, think of simple questions...who has what to win? Where's the money? What's going to happen?

Or have fun hopping around about how unfair Russia is being. Whichever.

 

[GreyViper]

I'm sure. That said, what has Russia done in response to the expansion of NATRO that can be considered highly unreasonable? Have they invaded nearby countries? Slaughter populaces?

Duh YES!!!!!!! Tshetsens

Tell that to Jugoslavia. Or even Afghanistan.

You mean these guys whos past time activity was doing genocide and ethnic cleansing or taking hostage civilians and executing them rather gruesome way and then send it to TV, yes my heart bleeds for them.

Yeah, you guys are just batshit crazy, to be honest. You're seriously not going to convince anyone to take your seriously by frothing at the mouth screaming about a great conspiracy to keep the little guy down.

Seriously, I hate to say this, but I get this every single time I speak with a Baltic person. You guys are just backwards in your international politic attitude, and lack the political acumen to understand the mechanics of any international politics. So instead you just whine and stamp your feet.

Please don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you do. Just realise that every time you do this you make your countrymen look like a bunch of dumbasses by proxy. Saying "russia hasn't changed since the ussr" just shows a lack of historical perspective or political understanding.

Im telling you how it is and with what we have to deal with every day. You do know that most of us have and visit russia quite often one reason or other mostly business. Thing is even the ordinary russian populace see whats going on here, but as they say things are now somewhat better then few years back. SO russian goverment is one thing russian people is another. ANd its the politicans who are playing these games. They know how goverment deals with people who don't speak or write what they want station fire here, tax evasion charges there, its all part of russian life.

No, they're pissed off about it because someone is building a missile shield on their borders. Nobody, not the US, not England, not Israel, not China, would be all the Fonz and go "eeey, that's ok, build a missile shield on my border, I don't care" in response to that. That's preposterous. Building a missile shield on the border of a country is the equivalent of building missile bases on the border from a military viewpoint.

SO let me get this straight they would be offended if somebody would take away their right to nuke other countries? As for the building missile bases on the border it kind of reminds me of the old Cuban crisis.

Do you have any idea how hilarious the term "cyber attack"is?

It might sound funny but I assure you its not. You as admin should know how bad malicious hacking can be.

 

[meson]

The history of how these Russians got into your country is too long ago to be relevant subject matter to the debate. That leaves you with two options.

Be civilized. Any and all civilized countries do understand and respect the existence of integrated sub-communities. I'm not talking about active immigrants, I'm talking about the Frisians in the Netherlands, the Laps in Finland, the Basques in Spain. Once they're there, a civilized country can deal with them in a civilized manner (well, not the Basques, but still).

Good show. Go go racist Balts!

and thats where you are wrong. its not too long ago. most russians arrived here in the 70s and 80s, and the first wave in 1946-53 wasnt that long ago. and how can you compare russian colonists with basques who have live there since the start of written history. so russians are what you call active immigrants. That said, no one is driving them out. And this racism thing, what the hell are you blabbering about? There is no such thing as pure estonian anyway, I am myself 1/4th russian.

On the other hand, Lithuania gave ALL Russians who lived here when USSR broke up citizenship.

so maybe this wasnt the smartest move on our part. but if you go to live in a foreign country you learn its language, so I dont understand whats the big deal is that our citizenship exams are in fact in estonian . How many indigenous nations live in russia and how many official languages does Russia have?

 

[Neamos]

but if you go to live in a foreign country you learn its language, so I dont understand whats the big deal is that our citizenship exams are in fact in estonian Very Happy

And I don't understand what's the problem with giving people that lived there for their whole lives citizenship.

How many indigenous nations live in russia and how many official languages does Russia have?

Russia as a whole, 1. Because it would be stupid for people from Kaliningrad to learn bashkir or tater. While separate states, like Tatarstan, have 2, because there are 2 large ethnic groups.
What's your point?