would you say the same about for example drug control ? I never understood why people compare guns and cars anyway ... apples and oranges I guess.
Firearms and their relation to crime figures
- Thread starter .Pixote.
- Start date
UncannyGarlic
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
The question is less whether or not guns cause crime than it is whether or not ready legal availability of guns makes them more prevalent in crime. More specifically, the it's a question of whether easily obtainable legal firearms cause more violent crime, specifically more violent firearm crime.
The point which was made awhile ago is that it's extremely hard to seperate firearm laws from all of the other factors involved in these things. Pretty much every study on the subject has failed to effectively identify and seperate these factors (assuming they even can be separated), rendering them all but useless.
The point which was made awhile ago is that it's extremely hard to seperate firearm laws from all of the other factors involved in these things. Pretty much every study on the subject has failed to effectively identify and seperate these factors (assuming they even can be separated), rendering them all but useless.
Sicblades said:
I don't recall saying they are precisely the same. What I did infer is that they both can cause mass fatalities/casualties, and both are easily accessible. It's a valid comparison. Yet no one is attempting to ban cars, the horror. Or attempting to ban TNT, or ban fertilizer, or ban nails (you need shrapnel after all for your IED), or ban Swiss army knives. You (hopefully) get the idea, maybe you don't. Ah well.
Shoveler said:
Those on the other side of the fence will ignore that.
I've asked the question why firearm homicides in the U.S. - which account for less than than half of 1% of deaths in america are so important to them, while they ignore vehicular deaths, which account for over 11% of all deaths in america.
It's because they can rant about how americans are nuts and violent savages, and so on and so on - in regard to guns which they emotionally percieve as 'evil'.
Death by automobile evidently doesn't allow for nearly enough emotional drama queenery...
Of course I am not even arguing about that. But simply making out of guns cars seems a we bit to simple for my taste. Sometimes I am feeling when talking with gun-lovers like talking to a religious fanatic where there seem to be always only 2 options available. Black or whiteShoveler said:
You got a source for these numbers DammitBoy? Because the numbers i found showed something else (it's more likely that the numbers i found didn't include all things, so i would really appreciate a a source to be able to see for myself.).
That said, as far as i get it from the other thread it's at least in some states easier to get and carry a gun than to be allowed to drive a car. So the availibility (of term of becoming allowed to the use) is quite different - that doesn't mean a criminal will exactly follow those rules - naturally.
-edit-
Not to forget, as far as i heard the speed limit in the USA are quite low and where changed now and then because of people dying from it, so it's not as if car usage isn't regulated, or is it?
That said, as far as i get it from the other thread it's at least in some states easier to get and carry a gun than to be allowed to drive a car. So the availibility (of term of becoming allowed to the use) is quite different - that doesn't mean a criminal will exactly follow those rules - naturally.
-edit-
Not to forget, as far as i heard the speed limit in the USA are quite low and where changed now and then because of people dying from it, so it's not as if car usage isn't regulated, or is it?
Using cars definetly is regulated. No clue how its in the US in detail. But at least here it depends on weight and speed limits. I mean the US has speet limits no 
?
?Crni Vuk said:Using cars definetly is regulated. No clue how its in the US in detail. But at least here it depends on weight and speed limits. I mean the US has speet limits no
Well when taking a look at some german 'autobahn' you can sometimes get another feeling
I meant more in the sense of strengthening the laws and lowering the allowed speed. Because they recognized this 'might' be a factor for deaths in traffic.
except in those places where its easier to get a gun then a driver licence. I guess. But HEY! Its "letz generalize" time
My point was just that comparing cars with weapons makes the whole situation to simple (not always in favour for guns though). Its a moot point in my eyes.
My point was just that comparing cars with weapons makes the whole situation to simple (not always in favour for guns though). Its a moot point in my eyes.
Crni Vuk said:
Because you can't ACCEPT (as in, face reality) cars are more deadly, not because it's invalid.
Guns are already regulated here. Making them illegal for citizens to own won't make anyone safer, they'll purchase them/steal them illegally anyway. End result = same level of violence.
That's not actually true. I agree that the problem isn't guns in the hands of civilians but guns in the hands of criminals. However, restricting the gun flow toward civilians is likely to make it harder for criminals to get their hands on guns as well. The black and white market don't exist separately from eachother in any field, there's always a flow from the white to the black market (through smuggle, theft or illegal sales). By restricting the amount of white market weapons you indirectly impact the black market.Shoveler said:
The question is how big that impact on the black market really is, and whether increased vulnerability of the general populace isn't so great that the net gain in security is negative.
Of course, a better way to restrict the black gun market may simply be to increase supervision of the white gun market and increase penalties on illegal gun ownership and use.
UncannyGarlic
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Cars = Guns?
So what you're saying is that we need to make drivers tests more difficult and start requiring people to take tests in order to get different classes of licenses for different classes of firearms? I'm down with that.
So what you're saying is that we need to make drivers tests more difficult and start requiring people to take tests in order to get different classes of licenses for different classes of firearms? I'm down with that.
Where did I said anything about "not accepting". Do you love puting words in my mouth ? If yes why not start thinking for me then ? Get of from your high horse ok. I ve yet to see some "facts" with this comparision.Shoveler said:
Do more people die in terrible car accidents compared to gun shoots ? Hell yes. One would have to be dump not to see that. But what is this telling us about the lethality or the use of said objects (cars,guns). Nothing. I am sure cars together might have killed more people then the nuclear bombs so far. Should I assume cars are weapons of mass destruction ? I think the US did something really wrong in the end spending so much money on their nuclear arsenal when the weapon of doom was so damn close! See how easy it is to be ridiculous with that kind of argumentation ? Thats why I dont see weapons EXACTLY 1:1 with cars. I accept that you people love your weapons and your right to have firearms. But please accept as well that times change. Some states choose a different approach in how to deal with firearms either for the better or the worse. I am not arguing about the effectivness of "bans" (particularly since I dont believe this would change much). What I complain about is how some people see guns like some kind of fancy toy. I always shiver when I see 10 year olds holding a Uzi or something. But hey. Its their family. Not mine.
Sander said:
Its interesting that you mention it since a lot of the ilegal guns here in Germany come from eastern europe. Well the nations which have lower controls of guns. Its quite easy to even get such a ilegal item. YOu just have to get over the border buy a gun deploy it in your car and hope they dont do some random search and possibly find it.
UncannyGarlic said:
We already have driving tests, and there are already licenses for firearms. Anything else?
Crni Vuk said:
So you agree with me then tighter restrictions won't impact criminals much at all. After all it's happening in your backyard even with the restrictions.
Crni Vuk said:
Did I say weapons are EXACTLY 1:1 with cars? Whose putting words? And I love the "YOU PEOPLE" comment like it's some dirty thing to believe in our constitional rights. Regardless, all states say I can have a firearm, some may make licensing more difficult than others, but it hardly matters. Your government says people shouldn't have them, yet they obtain them anyway.
Sander said:
Our current white market has well over 200 million guns. Making them illegal would make instantly make that 200 million black market guns. I'm doubting there would be much impact at all on crime. Generalizing ofcourse, but we've got a hell of a lot of guns here.
Sander said:
I'm completely with you here though, SOME increased scrutiny would be okay with most people I'd wager.
yeah because I am sure the constiutional rights are always right, right ?
If they have some effect in general ? Thats hard do answer. I have no data nor anything else to base my oppinion around it. All I know is that most civilians here dont own firearms that I dont see them around here and even if some have firearms it are not automatic weapons. People HERE seem to be mostly happy around it. Ilegal weapons are some issue for it self. But even that is not the bigest problem except for a few cases where you have gun related crime. But that probably happens everywhere. Though to say that Germany isnt making really that much money with weapons (compared to like France, GB, USA etc.) so the gouvernement actualy doenst really benefit from a "gun culture" to say that.
But things which work here for us have not to work everywhere. The US is a different nation with its own rules and subcultures. There are for sure similarities here and there but in general the differences are quite big. So if the US for example has no restrictions for weapons and it's leading to a safer nation for them so be it. I would be happy for them. Because who would not want to live safe ? I just dont see that working here in Germany either because people have a different idea about what weapons are and they think that the police actualy is doing a good enough job protecting most citizens without the need to be armed. As said that doesnt mean that either the US or Germany are supperior. They just deal in different ways with "weapons".
What I agree with is that thighter restrictions have no meaning when your neighbours dont share that view and its easy to cross borders. Yes.Shoveler said:
If they have some effect in general ? Thats hard do answer. I have no data nor anything else to base my oppinion around it. All I know is that most civilians here dont own firearms that I dont see them around here and even if some have firearms it are not automatic weapons. People HERE seem to be mostly happy around it. Ilegal weapons are some issue for it self. But even that is not the bigest problem except for a few cases where you have gun related crime. But that probably happens everywhere. Though to say that Germany isnt making really that much money with weapons (compared to like France, GB, USA etc.) so the gouvernement actualy doenst really benefit from a "gun culture" to say that.
But things which work here for us have not to work everywhere. The US is a different nation with its own rules and subcultures. There are for sure similarities here and there but in general the differences are quite big. So if the US for example has no restrictions for weapons and it's leading to a safer nation for them so be it. I would be happy for them. Because who would not want to live safe ? I just dont see that working here in Germany either because people have a different idea about what weapons are and they think that the police actualy is doing a good enough job protecting most citizens without the need to be armed. As said that doesnt mean that either the US or Germany are supperior. They just deal in different ways with "weapons".