FOnline: 2238, Jumping into the 3d era

[Ultravox]

The differences than F2 models and VB models
are... uh strange...

 

[Voiddweller]

If you don't like current animations/models/whatever you'll have a great opportunity to change them pretty quick. It's 3d now, after all.

Yes, much easier to add new stuff, but recreate everything again is an huge amount of work.

 

[Continuum]

Of course, but 3d support is a huge step forward. I don't mind sacrificing all original critters and replacing them with more or less similar stuff (Van Buren for example), to keep things consistent - all critters are 3d models only.

 

[Tycell]

Of course, but 3d support is a huge step forward. I don't mind sacrificing all original critters and replacing them with more or less similar stuff (Van Buren for example), to keep things consistent - all critters are 3d models only.

I agree, this is a huge leap foward with greatly improved graphics and massive of additional content.

I have one question though (might be stupid but...) why cant somone release the tech demo engine stuff? As in mod that engine and use it wholely to mod new fallout games / mods?

Rather than paste nice models from it into the old engine, why not use a newer engine?

 

[x'il]

Of course, but 3d support is a huge step forward. I don't mind sacrificing all original critters and replacing them with more or less similar stuff (Van Buren for example), to keep things consistent - all critters are 3d models only.

Except then, you're not just sacrificing the critters, you are getting rid of the fallout art style. Also, the 3d critters doesn't seem to merge all that well with the rest of the artwork (see Lexx's comment about that hideous PA not fitting well in the BoS bunker because of the size), so what then? make all new tiles and scenery pieces to match?

 

[Lexx]

Well, except the PA, everything else looks cool. Just needs to be adjusted here and there and that's it for me.

In fact, right now, I like the VB player models more than the 2d critters. At least in FOnline... I've used it a lot already for testing, etc... and for now switching back to the 2d models is a strange feeling, because a lot is missing.

I can't play a wiry old fart anymore who has a ponytail and a bald head and walks with crippled limbs, just as one example.

 

[Continuum]

Except then, you're not just sacrificing the critters, you are getting rid of the fallout art style.

You'll keep it with both original Fallouts - no one is going to de-legalize them. But the most important - how do you want to keep original art style with real time 3d rendering? Original art style is nothing more than pre-rendered 3d models with God only knows what settings and post production and tons of other things in the meantime. Another shit to talk are carbon copies of critters and animations - fuck them. I do know how much time you must waste to re-create all this stuff. It's not worth an efforts.

Also, the 3d critters doesn't seem to merge all that well with the rest of the artwork

Critters are only few pixels crap on the screen, so the difference (critters against scenery/walls/whatever) isn't soo badly noticeable for me. Also, I prefer to have uber huge advantage from 3d support and small-ish lack of consistency rather than indigent, perfectly consistent art style with custom critters in the form of re-paintings, where changes other than re-colors are visible as hell (side effects of copy & paste), because there's no original source files released and never will be. Not to mention about shitload of ugly retarded work you must do.

so what then? make all new tiles and scenery pieces to match?

No, thank you. 3d critters is more than enough for me!

 

[x'il]

Well, except the PA, everything else looks cool. Just needs to be adjusted here and there and that's it for me.

In fact, right now, I like the VB player models more than the 2d critters. At least in FOnline... I've used it a lot already for testing, etc... and for now switching back to the 2d models is a strange feeling, because a lot is missing.

I can't play a wiry old fart anymore who has a ponytail and a bald head and walks with crippled limbs, just as one example.

Ok, since the images and video weren't enough to convince me i'll take your word for it that it may look good and "fitting" after getting accustomed or something.

Are you going to use the engine and the VB models for SD2? that would be a good way to check it out...

Except then, you're not just sacrificing the critters, you are getting rid of the fallout art style.

You'll keep it with both original Fallouts - no one is going to de-legalize them.

With both original Fallouts and in all likelihood all major and TC mods to come in the near future, thank goodness.

But the most important - how do you want to keep original art style with real time 3d rendering? Original art style is nothing more than pre-rendered 3d models with God only knows what settings and post production and tons of other things in the meantime. Another shit to talk are carbon copies of critters and animations - fuck them. I do know how much time you must waste to re-create all this stuff. It's not worth an efforts.

Critters are only few pixels crap on the screen, so the difference (critters against scenery/walls/whatever) isn't soo badly noticeable for me. Also, I prefer to have uber huge advantage from 3d support and small-ish lack of consistency rather than indigent, perfectly consistent art style with custom critters in the form of re-paintings, where changes other than re-colors are visible as hell (side effects of copy & paste), because there's no original source files released and never will be. Not to mention about shitload of ugly retarded work you must do.

All reasonable, yes, but you'd be sacrificing a huge portion of the original game's overall art style and atmosphere in favor of a modding advantage (and yes, you've already said that you just don't care).

On the other hand, I do care. If this would be just a little bit closer, more truthful, to that i'd be all over it and froathing at the mouth. As it is, it causes me some concerns about the FO modding future (in the art and atmosphere department), as i see it turning into yet another bland, boring, generic, "done-to-death" 3d realism stuff.

But well... like i said to Lexx above, if things go this way for the future, maybe i'll just have to get accustomed to it, and think of it not as original FO's mods but as something else... (something perhaps good looking, but less unique).

EDIT: PA still looks like shit, though.

 

[Voiddweller]

Agree. Leave realism for Fallout 3. And even for Fallout 3 people have created better animations, like those in "Fallout re-animated" mod. Looks closer to classic than VB.
Though i think when done propertly, 3D models can fit very well in 2D scenery. You just need to keep that awesomness that was in classic. Scale, proportions, animation, textures...

 

[Lexx]

Are you going to use the engine and the VB models for SD2? that would be a good way to check it out...

No, SD2 will stay on the Fallout 2 engine. I have no plans to switch, because it would require an additional coder (I am not very good skilled in AngelScript).

In the end, Fallout 1 / 2 critters have been 3d models in the beginning too. So if someone tries really hard, he might get better 3d model results which are more closer to the original. It's all about 3d modeling skills in this case.

 

[.Pixote.]

Are there any superstars out there that are willing to convert the new critter animations into FRM’s for the original Fallouts? Or is that prospect seen as foolish…considering that FOline appears to the future as a Fallout engine choice? One test case should be attempted though, to see what the results are like at a realistic scale, proper Fallout color palette, etc.

Does FOline remove the restricted color palette…if it does I can foresee problems arising, though many a modder might complain with some of the color restrictions, it has inversely helped create the visual style (colorless – bleak - gritty) that is Fallout. Tactics demonstrated that opening up the color palette doesn’t necessarily improve the visuals of the game. The pixilation of the artwork in the conversion from thousands of colors to 228 is a unifying feature in the art style of the game. Can the FOline engine switch the smoothing (pixilation) off and on…I hope so, because I personally prefer to keep the visuals as close as possible to the original style…

Are these VB critters FRM’s or actual polygons…if someone wanted to convert Fallout 1 into the FOline engine would they need to build the map from scratch, or does FOline recognize the Fallout maps and convert them over.

Anyway thanks Lexx, and your fine Russian friends again for this new engine.

 

[Josan12]

Agree. Leave realism for Fallout 3.

Yes. I agree absolutely. While this new 2.5d engine is a fantastic step forward, I think it presents a good opportunity to remind ourselves that the original FO games art is very much about style over realism (although some realism is a good thing IMO). I agree it would be a mistake to try to take our beloved FO in the same direction as 90% of contemporary games and go the realism route. Video games of the 90's often had a 'comic book' style to them (XCOM, Diablo, FO etc) and i think if we want to be true to FO we should be true to the original style.
IMO, leave realism to Beth and all the other [sarcasm]awesome[/sarcasm] games coming out these days. I'm not opposed to realism - i just prefer artistic style. When i chose to work on Fallout's outdated and often criticised graphics i chose it over many other more 'impressive' modern graphical games. Why? To me it spoke (and still speaks) character, style, drama, gritty-ness, and more. It has it's flaws of course (some critters are very 'stiff') and i still think there's something wrong with the perspective.

In the end, Fallout 1 / 2 critters have been 3d models in the beginning too. So if someone tries really hard, he might get better 3d model results which are more closer to the original. It's all about 3d modeling skills in this case.

I agree with this also - 3D modeling is just a modern tool and graphics made using it can be created in any way we like. It's a matter of choice. [fanboymode] Take a look at Diablo 3 for (IMO) an absolutely awesome take on style over realism using a very contemporary 3D engine. I mean just look at this shit:



Realistic? Not really.

(dribbles on self at thought of D3)[/fanboymode]

.....

 

[Lexx]

Does FOline remove the restricted color palette…if it does I can foresee problems arising, though many a modder might complain with some of the color restrictions, it has inversely helped create the visual style (colorless – bleak - gritty) that is Fallout.

Of course it removes the restriction. But what is restricting you to simply save your images and textures in 256 color mode? The game will not automatically give 'em many thousand colors more. It's all up to how you want to create your content.

Can the FOline engine switch the smoothing (pixilation) off and on…I hope so, because I personally prefer to keep the visuals as close as possible to the original style…

If you mean antialising / multisampling, then yes.

Are these VB critters FRM’s or actual polygons…if someone wanted to convert Fallout 1 into the FOline engine would they need to build the map from scratch, or does FOline recognize the Fallout maps and convert them over.

Fallout 1 maps have to be converted to Fallout 2 maps (simply opening them with BIS mapper and saving them again) and as Fallout 2 map, converted with our modified Dims mapper to the FOnline format. That's all that needs to be done. One year ago, I converted all Fallout 1 locations in one week of work. (This includes writing new basic dialogues for NPCs + adding it to the game + fixing up the maps a bit more to make them fit with FOnline.)

The Van Buren models are real models and not rendered into frm.

 

[Continuum]

With both original Fallouts and in all likelihood all major and TC mods to come in the near future, thank goodness.

Your eyes will burn, since most of custom art in TCs is far away from original art style. You have been warned!

As it is, it causes me some concerns about the FO modding future (in the art and atmosphere department), as i see it turning into yet another bland, boring, generic, "done-to-death" 3d realism stuff.

I wouldn't care about the future too much. Some people may die of old age before playing games based on FOnline engine Besides, I doubt modding of original Fallouts will ever die.

PA still looks like shit, though.

NOOOOOOOOO!, it's looking super cool!

 

[x'il]

With both original Fallouts and in all likelihood all major and TC mods to come in the near future, thank goodness.

Your eyes will burn, since most of custom art in TCs is far away from original art style. You have been warned!

Oh i know, but unless they have replaced all original critters with stuff with a fundamentally different art-style approach ripped from another game, then i think i'll be able to handle it (at least, i hope so... *bittes fingernails*)

As it is, it causes me some concerns about the FO modding future (in the art and atmosphere department), as i see it turning into yet another bland, boring, generic, "done-to-death" 3d realism stuff.

I wouldn't care about the future too much. Some people may die of old age before playing games based on FOnline engine Besides, I doubt modding of original Fallouts will ever die.

Of course, i've said so myself a few posts back. 'Tis just a theoretical discussion.

PA still looks like shit, though.

NOOOOOOOOO!, it's looking super cool!

lol (real)

 

[Lexx]

Here are the max files of all exported critters and animations:
http://fonline.ru/vanburen

It's for 3ds max 2010 only for now. So sorry for everyone who can't use it (inclusive me).

 

[.Pixote.]

You are a blessed man Lexx…now I only need to learn MAX.

 

[Surf Solar]

I know it's a bit of nitpicking, but the charactermodels in each screenshot look a bit to big imo. Maybe it's just me, but I think they could be slightly smaller. Also, the blue of the vault suit - I mean this is 3d now, couldn't it be possible to adjust the colour of the vault jumpsuit etc a bit?

I've got a bit of mixed emotions on this. On one hand, it's amazing which new possibilities this is providing. On the other hand, it lacks a bit of the original fallout art-style...

 

[.Pixote.]

The textures are all Targa’s (TGA). It’s easy to adjust the color of any texture, or build new textures, dirty them up, de-saturate them, etc. It can be batch processed in Photoshop relatively quickly, once you build the right actions. This is a powerful feature for FOline. The new critters are fairly easy to make (or borrowed) for a semi skilled 3D master, and with the animations attached you can model a new critter, and in a few days have it up and running online. Try that with the original Fallout critters (one critter with all weapons is up to 10,000 frames – the complete process = 100,000 frames of work) now you understand why it’s such time consuming and punishing work.

 

[Continuum]

It's time to post something different than neverending Oh noez! They destroyed original art style! type of stuff.

Suggestions/ideas/whatever:

Clothes add-ons to avoid WTF!? This guy is looking exactly like me! Oh noez! Attack of the clones! How this could work. Let's take a Leather Jacket for example. We're creating ten add-ons, like some small-ish metal/leather/whatever plates, some belts, etc. Before loading each map engine is randomly adding these add-ons to Leather Jackets present in location.

Or better. Have you played Medieval 2 Total War? Each character (mesh/scene/file/whatever) is splitted into different pieces (for example):

- 3 x arms,
- 6 x body,
- 2 x legs,
- 5 x helmet
- 8 x shield.

Before each battle engine is randomly creating character from these pieces.

Another must-have-stuff for the player are fucking backpacks to give moar scavenging\survival feel. One of the reason I like Combat Armour is backpack (although it's looking like shit, but still - it's a backpack! Yay!). But I see that they are already there (do I look like a focking wastelander now or not?).

What else? Multi/Sub-Object material support maybe? I don't know specifications of .smd/.md5, so maybe it's already there.