valcik
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Ask yourself why are you getting so offended by this explanation that you have to quote it with snarky remark attached.
Fuck Notre Dame. Seriously.
- Thread starter Crni Vuk
- Start date
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
I think you quoted the wrong post to begin because I was just making fun of Hass' video of the guy asking randos on the street to take in refugees in their homes and I was comparing it to Tom Green's antics...
Which I never disputed.
This isn't about victim hood or excusing every homeless, beggar, drug addict or poor person out there. If that's what you get out of what I am saying, then we have an issue here as we're completely talking past each other.
Let me adress a few missunderstandings here first. When you say "because some people legitimately need help" then we should be clear, that I am not just talking about a few. We're talking about millions of people here.
Second, while yes everyone is an individual and personal responsibility, particularly for your own actions is important and it reminds us that we should always try to improve our situation, we have also to keep in mind that we're part of a larger economic and social structure. This means, there are many things happening around us, where we as individuals have absolutely no influence on. For example, if big corporations decide to shut down large fascilities in certain areas. Or when financial institutions create housing bubbles. Or when we talk about rational individual decisions, leading to irrational results, like a single household saving money is a rational decision, but if everyone does it, it can lead to the paradox of saving. We're not living as completely isolated self-sufficient entities, even if we're individuals.
Take the war on drugs for example, which was going since the 1980s and has probably done nothing to solve the issue of drug trafficking and drug addiction, particularly by punishing those that take drugs, while at the same time causing an incredible amount of damage not only to people in the US but also other nations. The research on it today, is overwhemingly clear, the war on drugs was a failure. When we look at social issues, like drug addiction, poverty or homelesness, then it simply isn't enough to appeal to 'individual' achievements, because we're looking at an extremly broad issue here.
And one of the things we finally have to stop, is to treat poor, homeless, drug addicts, beggars etc. differently from the rest of the people, for the sole reason that they are homeless or beggars. What you do, is that you're punshing a large group of people in two ways. First, they are already in a very bad condition and second you're also shaming them for suffering from it. Poverty, is a condition, not a character trait. Any kind of personality trait that's present in poor people, can be also found in wealthy and rich people. There is a ton of research on that subject available.
Once we stop to blame poverty on the poor, we might actually get to adress the reasons and a chance where we really can do something against it.
Last edited:
TheGM
The voice of reason
This shit is just hilarious.
I wonder if chuckle fucks like Crni said fuck that buddha statue when the taliban blew them up. Did he get that bad dragon ready when he heard the news of all those Babylonian Artifacts getting smashed by ISIS. But see it is all ok, because all that history n' shit was just stones and rocks, because after all, poor people. But the best part isn't the baity thread title or the shitposting. it is this right here where tries to play the moral high ground as the savior of downtrodden but with toxic levels of smug and self satisfaction. Totally doens't look like a self indulgent jagov.
I wonder if chuckle fucks like Crni said fuck that buddha statue when the taliban blew them up. Did he get that bad dragon ready when he heard the news of all those Babylonian Artifacts getting smashed by ISIS. But see it is all ok, because all that history n' shit was just stones and rocks, because after all, poor people. But the best part isn't the baity thread title or the shitposting. it is this right here where tries to play the moral high ground as the savior of downtrodden but with toxic levels of smug and self satisfaction. Totally doens't look like a self indulgent jagov.
valcik
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Does that mean you won't call Slovakia a shithole anymore?
Proud mountaineers living their happy lives in beautiful nature, with income ten times lower than average German, and leaving almost non-existent carbon trace behind laugh at your "civilized" and rich lifestyle in highly urbanized areas with overpaid services anyway. Took you almost fifty years to understand that but you finally did it, congrats!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/d...partments-it-hasnt-gone-as-planned/ar-BBW0tiz
Kinda interesting, the social dynamics are not easily estimated or controlled.
Kinda interesting, the social dynamics are not easily estimated or controlled.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Crni vUK said:
The way you explain it, it is. By saying unconditionally, you are treating these people with kiddy gloves, equating them to helpless children when that simply isn't the case.
Crni Vuk said:
Whatever, semantics. Like I said, if they want help, they will be FORCED to get help, it is just that simple. If you take my tax dollars to build rehab facilities, they better be in use fixing people.
Crni Vuk said:
What does this have to do with a fuckface who SAYS he wants help, but can't be bothered to enter a rehab facility and get treatment? Or go out and work when it is offered?
Crni Vuk said:
To fix the problem, the 'INDIVIDUALS', who are addicts need to get 'INDIVIDUAL' treatment, it is that fucking simple. The INDIVIDUALS need to work when work is offered to those INDIVIDUALS.
Crni Vuk said:
We aren't treating them different because of their situation. We are treating them different if they REFUSE to do a fucking thing about it. I sympathize with a homeless guy or an addict. I WILL treat those people like shit if they REFUSE to fucking change. Like REFUSE to work or REFUSE to go to a rehab facility and get fixed.
Crni Vuk said:
I only blame those who are poor BECAUSE of poor choices, not those who are poor due to circumstances beyond their control. Otherwise, we already have social services like AHCCCS and food stamps.
Last edited:
Just because I would never let anyone go without housing or grant everyone the bare minimum that's required to survive in our society, doesn't mean I relieve them of their drug addiction or gambling debths or alcoholism.
That's still not enough reason for me, that such people should not receive help.
The current system we have, wouldn't even treat prisoners in such a way - in principle. Prisoners get food and housing, regardless of what they did, what crime they comitted, what personality they have, what ever if they shit all over the wall, refuse to work what ever. They still, get always food and shelter. And we're doing this out of the need to offer the bare minimum of dignity. And this is what I would grant everyone, a possibility to live their live in dignity, without any conditions attached to it. Regardless if someone wants to work or not, they should have always access to a home and food, for the simple reason that they are human beings.
The people you're talking about are a minority and even they, deserve a live in dignity, because everyone deserves a live in dignity. That's what human rights mean for me.
So you're saying, you want to punish people that do not follow a certain behaviour that you (or society) deem as good behaviour?
I think some of you people do not even realize how close you actually are to the real tenets of socialism.
The good thing about socialism is that they don't have people who refuse to work or live on the street. Because they'll be branded antisocial elements and put into forced labour.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Crni Vuk said:
They most likely had this on their own until their addiction or laziness fucked them up. Withut solving the addiction problem, anything good is simply going to get ruined. Hence, this is why they need treatment.
CrniVuk said:
What do you think the rehab facility is for?? Obviously, when people are getting treatment, they cannot be allowed outside less they be tempted to use again. The rehab facilities I propose would provide for housing and food. It may be spartan but it would work.
Crni Vuk said:
How is rehab depriving someone of their dignity when the whole point is to get them off their addiction and help them be a productive human being again?
Crni Vuk said:
If you have noticed in my post, socialism itself isn't necessarily bad as long as we have the support network to implement it. Star Trek, for example, had replicators. We need to find ours.
Also, the reason why socialism fails is BECAUSE of the LEECHES. If everyone actually put in their share, it wouldn't even be that bad.
*
*I also made this kind of joke a few pages back as well.
And you're not granting people that, because they refuse to follow arbitrary rules?
I am not saying people shouldn't do rehab, you just simply can't force them in to it and by dennying people the most basic requirements like food and housing, you're definetly not getting them in a better position either. So I am not seeing any reason to refuse it.
*Edit
At the end of the day, all you're doing is to punish people that do not follow the kind of code that you set up or show the kind of behaviour you want in them.
*I also made this kind of joke a few pages back as well.
Giving someone access to food and shelter is never ruined, because we're living in a post-scarcity society where food is thrown away and room/space is not an issue. Infact, in 2 days 1 billion can be raised for a burned church and each year tons of food are thrown away due to mass production.
And you're not granting people that, because they refuse to follow arbitrary rules?
I am not saying people shouldn't do rehab, you just simply can't force them in to it and by dennying people the most basic requirements like food and housing, you're definetly not getting them in a better position either. So I am not seeing any reason to refuse it.
*Edit
At the end of the day, all you're doing is to punish people that do not follow the kind of code that you set up or show the kind of behaviour you want in them.
Last edited:
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Crni Vuk said:
The addict probably had a place to stay but got kicked out due to their drug habit. The drug habit was DIRECTLY responsible for them getting kicked out. Same with food. When the addict forgoes food and spends their money on drugs instead, the addiction was DIRECTLY responsible for the lack of food.
Crni Vuk said:
Already took care of this one. Eliminate the possibility for companies getting sued for giving out old food then they will.
Crni Vuk said:
So these entitled assholes are perfectly fine asking Joe Public to pay for their treatment but at the same time, they also reserve the right to deny treatment, letting Joe Publics money go to waste? That is BEYOND fucking stupid.
Crni Vuk said:
Rehab IS providing them food and shelter. What is the problem here? In your scenario, it is the addicts own dumb fucking fault if they CHOOSE not to use rehab and instead be a public fucking nuisance. If they choose not to go to rehab, then they deserve what is coming to them. We are LITERALLY doing all that we can to get them help already. We are NOT going to BABY them.
Crni Vuk said:
In your scenario, at the end of the day you can beg and grovel for them to get help, knowing they won't choose to do so. You then end up with a situation like Seattle where the officials just give up because they can't be seen as meanies so they just let the situation get worse and worse.
Last edited:
The thing with drugs is that they're awesome. Many people could afford housing and food, but drugs are better than that. Even if they HAVE housing and food, they can't appreciate the food or keep the housing in a reasonable condition because drugs are more important.
D
Deleted member 53669
Guest
It's credulous to blame drugs on people's behavior to that extent.
The reason people act they way they do is because they have given up on making any changes to their lives and having horrible upbringings. So you have them around society and not rounded up and put into mental treatment centers and shit them out as a government run laborer, what a smart person would do.
Either way, very few people in such situations can get out of that on their own. Just giving them free food and shelter won't do shit. As cruel as it is, forced rehab would save lifes.
D
Deleted member 53669
Guest
You don't have to force people to do anything. If it truly is the best option people will willingly go if it wasn't stigmatized.
Universal healthcare makes that easy to do because you have to speak with a confidential professional.
Healthcare in general needs to spend more time taking care of societies woes instead of worrying about the market to influence it's objectives.
Why aren't the immigrants being setup in proper schools so that they can learn how to live in the countries in if they do come?
Why are our immigration policies so bad where we take in radical groups and terrorists and put decent families that our countries need on waiting lists that extend in some cases into multiple generations where a father might not be alive to get his approved?
It's because no one is really taking the problem seriously at the top because their business is to prevent paying taxes as much as possible.
We spend all of this money to make sure our police have tanks for protests and to support the military industrial complex and we wonder why we have problems, health in general is a national security issue first and foremost beyond the next war that no body wants that can be cooked up by whatever political game you play. So is education, border security, environmental issues. It's the same thing you pay for now, but instead it goes to international corporations to keep you safe from Russia or China when you've already won the ideological battle and your primary concern should be the well being of your country.
Universal healthcare makes that easy to do because you have to speak with a confidential professional.
Healthcare in general needs to spend more time taking care of societies woes instead of worrying about the market to influence it's objectives.
Why aren't the immigrants being setup in proper schools so that they can learn how to live in the countries in if they do come?
Why are our immigration policies so bad where we take in radical groups and terrorists and put decent families that our countries need on waiting lists that extend in some cases into multiple generations where a father might not be alive to get his approved?
It's because no one is really taking the problem seriously at the top because their business is to prevent paying taxes as much as possible.
We spend all of this money to make sure our police have tanks for protests and to support the military industrial complex and we wonder why we have problems, health in general is a national security issue first and foremost beyond the next war that no body wants that can be cooked up by whatever political game you play. So is education, border security, environmental issues. It's the same thing you pay for now, but instead it goes to international corporations to keep you safe from Russia or China when you've already won the ideological battle and your primary concern should be the well being of your country.
Last edited by a moderator:
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Fuck Notre Dame, honestly. Only people who care about it at this point are just doing it to be trendy.
It's an outdated view which has been abandonded by drug conselors. giving free food and shelter, unconditionaly, changes everything as it's removing one of the reasons for abusing drugs. I mean is it really that difficult to imagine, that someone who's living in filth, wihout food and shelter, tries everything in dulling his sensens and engaging in escapism?
From my experience, working for years with such troubled teenagers of which some have been drug addicts, is that you can't reach people with preasure and sanctions. You can't make people change to your ideals or what you see as acceptable behaviour, by using sanctions or shaming them. That doesn't mean that you never work with punishments, but you have always to keep in mind, where you draw the line. I mean we're not slaping around children anymore, as punishment for what we see as bad behaviour, neither do we hit students for bad behaviour anymore and we certainly wouldn't leave them without food or shelter, if the got bad grades.
Its simply an outdated idea, just like many others.
Drug addicts are simply weak individuals! Punish them hard enough and they will change their behaviour!
Depressed people simply have to get their shit together! And things will get better.
Homeless/poor people simply have to get their lazy bums up! Who wants a job finds one!
And then we act all surprised, when those things fail to actually adress the issue and get a positive change out of people. The drug addicts stay with their drugs, the poor people in their poverty and the depressed peple commit suicide. People aren't like dogs that could be easily trained to do what you want or machines that you can simply programm to do what you expect of them. Everyone's an individual, with his own history and experiences. There is not one tactic, one strategy that works for everyone.
But the one thing you can do, is to provide people with the bare minimum that's required for a live in dignity. You're also lowering crime that way. Even if people spend some money on drugs for example, they now won't necessarily have to fall back on crime to get it. And we havn't even talked about the children of drug addicts or poor people, which have done absolutely nothing and yet have to deal with the conditions of their parents. Do they not deserve at least a live in dignity? When you leave the parents out there, without food and shelter, you're basically condemn their children to suffer the same conditions.
Leeches on Society:
D
Deleted member 98605
Guest
Regarding the Buddha statues, yea, fuck them too. The Taliban blew them up because people kept throwing money at dead, old, and to them un-culturally mutable rocks while their living, breathing people starved, needed medical aid, and investment.
And they're right! People are still throwing money at the damn things, digging up new ones, nearly two decades later, while Afghanistan as a whole is still a mess. The rocks can wait until the nation's living, breathing people are fine.
And the way the war's going, I wouldn't be surprised if, in 2021, the Taliban, now in control, blow up the rest of the things as a big 'fuck you' to the world; and we'll see this thread come up again.
Hell, we saw this come up again when the US looted the Baghdad Museum, when Daesh blew up Palymra, etc, etc. Nevermind the rest of the war, the other parties, the concurrent sufferings, go bleed the noses of the Islamists and Extremists not for a general peace, but for revenge over dead rocks that at best serve as a tourist attraction. Never cleanup the mess aftewards or stabilise the rest of the country, or mop up the other forces who aren't blowing up old shit but are still blowing up people. Gotta get that kneejerk reaction sated, right?
And they're right! People are still throwing money at the damn things, digging up new ones, nearly two decades later, while Afghanistan as a whole is still a mess. The rocks can wait until the nation's living, breathing people are fine.
And the way the war's going, I wouldn't be surprised if, in 2021, the Taliban, now in control, blow up the rest of the things as a big 'fuck you' to the world; and we'll see this thread come up again.
Hell, we saw this come up again when the US looted the Baghdad Museum, when Daesh blew up Palymra, etc, etc. Nevermind the rest of the war, the other parties, the concurrent sufferings, go bleed the noses of the Islamists and Extremists not for a general peace, but for revenge over dead rocks that at best serve as a tourist attraction. Never cleanup the mess aftewards or stabilise the rest of the country, or mop up the other forces who aren't blowing up old shit but are still blowing up people. Gotta get that kneejerk reaction sated, right?