Game Informer Fallout 3 article scans

[Byron]

But then that could be spin, or stupidity, as it seems like this system would encourage twitch-play and be very frustrating to use.

In the article the developer specifically mentions that "twitch-play" is something that is actively being avoided. I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see it come together.

 

[Miria]

I've seen the trailers and read some reviews of the abomination. And I have to say that it's still a fucking abomination. I looked, just to satisfy my sheer, morbid curiosity, and what I have seen is absolutely apalling on every fucking level.

 

[ferrarimanf355]

I read the issue earlier today, and I like what I see. I can't comment further, though, because I was distracted by the two-page spread on Project Gotham Racing 4.

 

[aries369]

The trouble with Bethsoft VATS combat is it is neither Realtime with pause, TB or Realtime combat. It is sort of a hybrid thingie, meshing and smashing all these kind of combat forms together into one form of combat, which Bethsoft probably thinks that everyone will be pleased to play.

No, it's not. You can argue that it's RTwP with elements of TB, but it's still RTwP. A shooter with RPG elements is still a shooter. You can call it a hybrid, but it plays like a shooter. The fact that I can take actions in VATS (apparently) doesn't mean it's still not a pause function in a RT combat game. Ergo RTwP.

I admit that VATS may look like it is Realtime with Pause, but to me clearly, it isn't. If it were RTwP, you would be able to pause the game and issue orders to your companions, just like In Baldur's Gate, NWN etc....

With the whole TB thing, I just meant that they (bethsoft) have found a (very stupid ) way to implement action points in the game. I agree with you ( I thougt that was clear : ) that is plays like a shooter in RT, and VATS is only put in to please to TB crowd, and to make it possible to do aimed shots just like Gears of War (or any other FPS game??).

English is not my native language, so let me try to expand on my comment in my previous post. I just meant that neither the TES fans, nor the TB fans, nor the FPS fans will be happy with the combat in this game. The FPS fans won't probably understand why they can just shoot the head of that dude, since they hit him, the TES fans won't get the whole action points system, while the TB fans won't understand why Beth bought the IP in the first place - if they just wanted to mock (the traditional) TB & Fallout fans.

And as such, I don't think the FPS or the TES or TB fans will be satisfied with this hybrid comnbat thingie...

 

[Brother None]

I admit that VATS may look like it is Realtime with Pause, but to me clearly, it isn't. If it were RTwP, you would be able to pause the game and issue orders to your companions, just like In Baldur's Gate, NWN etc....

You define RTwP as a pause system in which you can order companions? Ordering companions has absolutely nothing to do with the basic mechanics:
RT = any combat system in which game time and real time move parrallel
TB = any combat system in which no two NPCs (+ PC) can move simultaneously
RTwP = RT, but with a pause function.

VATS is just RTwP. Don't fall for the hype and say it's not.

And as such, I don't think the FPS or the TES or TB fans will be satisfied with this hybrid comnbat thingie...

Ageed. Covered in the Who is this for article, note.

 

[Galdred]

RT = any combat system in which game time and real time move parrallel
TB = any combat system in which no two NPCs (+ PC) can move simultaneously
RTwP = RT, but with a pause function.

VATS is just RTwP. Don't fall for the hype and say it's not.

It is not completely accurate for TB, though, as some TB system are simultaneous (the Master of Orion series, the dominions series, Laser Squad Nemesis, and Combat mission use it for instance ).
RTwP and simultaneous TB are rather close systems (as you usually freeze the game in order to issue commands): BG, NWN and Kotor, were hybrid games: they were turn based games, even though they played in Real time (that is, if you gave an order in the middle of a turn, your character would do nothing until the beginning of the following turn, while in a real RTwP game, turns would have been replaced by the time needed to carry on an order).
What sets TB and RT apart is the segmentation of combat: the fact that you can only give orders at specific times, while you give order when you want in a RT/RTwP game.

IMO, the problem is not about going RTwP or TB (any PnP RPG can be turned into either of these with sound game design), but the design goals of the system in use.
The real problem with Beth is probably not to know wether they are going RTwP, RT, or TB, but the reason why they have chosen one rather than the other, and how they intend to implement it.

From what appears in the article, it looks like they have chosen to implement action points only as a concession to the original fallout, and not because it fit well with the system in use, and because they wanted to limit twitch play, not because they had an interesting tactical combat system in mind.

 

[Divinepain]

I haven't been on the forum in a while and haven't real had time to go back and read on what you guys have covered but i did have time to read a little of what gameinformer had to say about the new fallout 3......and well i'm a little disturbed.....For the few reasons that level caps are said to be 20 and not a open ended game and the way the engine is explained its going to be a first person shooter with no turn based aspects.......well they did say something about pausing lol.....but plz tell me they're not raping Fallout.......

 

[Role-Player]

TB = any combat system in which no two NPCs (+ PC) can move simultaneously

How about Concurrent Turns in Temple of Elemental Evil? I know, it was an optional rule but still, a more accurate definition might be that combat is segmented into time units for every character in combat rather than all time units happening simultaneously.

 

[Sander]

It is not completely accurate for TB, though, as some TB system are simultaneous (the Master of Orion series, the dominions series, Laser Squad Nemesis, and Combat mission use it for instance ).

Those aren't turn-based games, but phase or round-based games.

RTwP and simultaneous TB are rather close systems (as you usually freeze the game in order to issue commands): BG, NWN and Kotor, were hybrid games: they were turn based games, even though they played in Real time (that is, if you gave an order in the middle of a turn, your character would do nothing until the beginning of the following turn, while in a real RTwP game, turns would have been replaced by the time needed to carry on an order).
What sets TB and RT apart is the segmentation of combat: the fact that you can only give orders at specific times, while you give order when you want in a RT/RTwP game.

Oh, for fuck's sake, not this bullshit again.
Turn-based is exactly that: turn-based. Sequential, seperate turns for every participating entity. The fact that a system is internally segmented does not make it a turn-based system. Go read this article for further clarification.

 

[Silencer]

VATS is just RTwP.

Unless what you do in power-mode happens instantenously, in which case this would not be a RTwP, but a RTwPM

Too early to tell, yet. Especially since we're not going to get a clarification on that for some time.

 

[Ausir]

TB = any combat system in which no two NPCs (+ PC) can move simultaneously

How about Concurrent Turns in Temple of Elemental Evil? I know, it was an optional rule but still, a more accurate definition might be that combat is segmented into time units for every character in combat rather than all time units happening simultaneously.

Or the Tactics squad turn based option.

 

[Galdred]

It is not completely accurate for TB, though, as some TB system are simultaneous (the Master of Orion series, the dominions series, Laser Squad Nemesis, and Combat mission use it for instance ).

Those aren't turn-based games, but phase or round-based games.
[/quote]


As rounds, and turn usually refers to different subdivision of time in turn based system, it would not be a convenient classification anyway.
The phase based denomination is ok, as there are separate phase for giving order and execution; however, the term simultaneous turn based is used more often to describe wego than phase based, and it describes the system accurately...
And phase based can describe completely not UGO systems as well, like the Epic 40K or confrontation miniature games or Battle Isle for instance, in which there are separate phases for actions (while in Wego, all actions are resolved simultaneously).

Oh, for fuck's sake, not this bullshit again.
Turn-based is exactly that: turn-based. Sequential, seperate turns for every participating entity. The fact that a system is internally segmented does not make it a turn-based system. Go read this article for further clarification.

I didn't say it was the same, but that the line could be quite blurred: Bioware systems are not really TB indeed, but they are not fully RTwP either.

In many traditional PnP actions are usually decided in a separate phase than execution (like in Legend of the 5 rings, or the CODA system), but the turns are still taken in succession.

Good read anyway, thanks, although I disagree with some of his conclusions, and the article is not factual but biased towards TB:

"RT is more realistic!" - Is it? How many gun fights do you see where the two combatants stand toe to toe and trade shots? What about people who can move or attack but can't do both at the same time?

That is correct, however, the elements he refers to are not a fault of RT, but a result of a poor combat model.

Another thing is that he blames WeGo for needing an interrupt system, while the same is true for TB (Jagged Alliance for instance would play very stupidly without interruptions).
He says that dexterity is essential to RT, which is not always correct either. It is true for traditional RTS, or action/RPG, however, not choosing TB can be done for other reasons, like allowing simultaneous actions, and not having a constant fragmentation of the action, but one that depends on the situation (even though it has no pause option, Combat mission can hardly be called a twitch game...).

 

[Sander]

As rounds, and turn usually refers to different subdivision of time in turn based system, it would not be a convenient classification anyway.
The phase based denomination is ok, as there are separate phase for giving order and execution; however, the term simultaneous turn based is used more often to describe wego than phase based, and it describes the system accurately...
And phase based can describe completely not UGO systems as well, like the Epic 40K or confrontation miniature games or Battle Isle for instance, in which there are separate phases for actions (while in Wego, all actions are resolved simultaneously).

Whatever name you give the beastie, it is definitely not the same as turn-based, nor is it a variation upon turn-based due to the entirely different implications the mechanic carries.

I didn't say it was the same, but that the line could be quite blurred: Bioware systems are not really TB indeed, but they are not fully RTwP either.

Yes they are. The fact that the internal mechanism is segmented to facilitate easy calculations does not change a thing about that. Every game ('cept really old ones) is internally segmented. The fact that the 'rounds' in most games are very small does nothing to change that fact.

Also, every RT game is inherently dexterity dependent, unless you make the game insanely slow.

 

[Galdred]

Whatever name you give the beastie, it is definitely not the same as turn-based, nor is it a variation upon turn-based due to the entirely different implications the mechanic carries.

It is definitely not the same indeed, but some games padds the gape between those, though (like Titans of Steel: warring suns: as it is turn/round based with very tiny turns, it is some kind of hybrid, and a good one for a change, or the traditionnal PnP RPGs I talked about).

Yes they are. The fact that the internal mechanism is segmented to facilitate easy calculations does not change a thing about that. Every game ('cept really old ones) is internally segmented. The fact that the 'rounds' in most games are very small does nothing to change that fact.

That is true, both RT and TB are segmented indeed, but the fact that the rounds were so long in BW games, while they appears instantaneous in other RT is a big difference: in a RT system like Darklands, the time at which you issue a command is irrelevant: it will be carried out after a fixed delay (+- a few milliseconds), while in Bioware DnD games, that can make you waste an entire turn. Anyway, my point is that an hybrid system is possible, but is usually worse than one of the other systems (even though I liked BG, I think this aspect of combat was completely retarded) ^^

Also, every RT game is inherently dexterity dependent, unless you make the game insanely slow.

insane is only a matter of taste , and it can easily be adressed by setting the game speed in a solo game.

 

[Sander]

That is true, both RT and TB are segmented indeed, but the fact that the rounds were so long in BW games, while they appears instantaneous in other RT is a big difference: in a RT system like Darklands, the time at which you issue a command is irrelevant: it will be carried out after a fixed delay (+- a few milliseconds), while in Bioware DnD games, that can make you waste an entire turn.

Which is also a fixed delay, only the delay takes a bit longer.
See my point?

 

[Galdred]

Which is also a fixed delay, only the delay takes a bit longer.
See my point?

Indeed, however, the implications on gameplay are radically different:
In order to play a BW game "correctly", you'd have to pause at the beginning of each turn exactly, and give order at this point. Thus it would work better if the game autopaused at the beginning of each turn. On the other hand, giving order at any other moment is largely sub optimal, as it will result in wasted actions, while if the game has sequences that lasts 1ms, it doesn't change anything.

 

[Sander]

Indeed, however, the implications on gameplay are radically different:
In order to play a BW game "correctly", you'd have to pause at the beginning of each turn exactly, and give order at this point. Thus it would work better if the game autopaused at the beginning of each turn. On the other hand, giving order at any other moment is largely sub optimal, as it will result in wasted actions, while if the game has sequences that lasts 1ms, it doesn't change anything.

But that's not what BG's system was intended to do, nor how it is intended to work. The point is to have combat played in real-time, but with pauses for very frantic moments. The turns are largely irrelevant to the player, as they are in a 'true' RT system.

 

[Galdred]

I agree it is not what it intended to do, but the mix resulted in some frustrating results, as you had the impressions your commands were not carried out at all, especially when the combat system and feats in KOTOR and NWN revolved around turns. The turns may have been irrelevant to the player, but they were not irrelevant to the result.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I don't believe RT&P is an accurate description for VATS, the nomenclature used isn't always 100% accurate but it is fairly well established. Say TB and I'll think of Fallout or JA2. Say RT&P KotOR & BG.

One thing all of those games have in common is you don't aim for your character, you don't pull the trigger for them.

Unless you have no direct control over aiming or firing in Fallout 3, VATS sounds like a shooter with slowmo rather than real time with pause. If it was a pause option allowing you to send a command to your character to target a specific body part. It would be pretty silly if it waited for you to unpause to fire, only for you to turn away from the target at the wrong moment. Or the opposite override your controls while the shot was taken.

I know consoles having aiming aids, but I can't imagine them making a fp game, with guns, where you clicked on the enemy and sat back watching your character attack.

 

[Ausir]

It's still RTwP, even though the things you can do during the paused mode are different.