Gay marriage

Gay Marriages should be allowed-

  • No- Marriage is something gays should not be allowed to enjoy. Gays are unfit for the purpose of mar

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes- Marriage is more than a sacrament, but a civil right of family that everyone is entitled too re

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes- Marriage is about love and the right to love who you want, and therefore is an expression of th

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Who cares? Frankly, marriage is an out-dated concept anyway.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Who cares? Frankly I don't care what you suck as long as I don't have to smell your breath

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    133
OK, King, I have commented to you above.

AN interesting aside on NPR this morning where they are having some commentary on this very issue-

The commentator said that one of the problems with allowing gay marriage was that it would lead to greater breakdown of the family unit and thus more broken homes.

The idea was that marriage is basically about having a family. While gays can have children, they are also likely to divorce if the partnership doesn't work out. However, hetero couples are likely to stay together "for the sake of the family."

However, if you allowed gay marriages than the institution of marriage itself would not be as strong, more hetero couples would break up and resulting in more broken homes.

The interesting thing was the person said that in Scandinavian and Northern European countries were gay marriage was allowed, one also saw an increase in broken homes and a decline in marriage as an institution.

While I think the argument is a bit stretched, I would like to hear what others think.

Oh and by the way, if you have a good article in support or against this issue, please feel free to post. And don't be afraid of the morality police. I tried this out on my class and they were divided along some interesting lines.
 
Well, I was trying not to be not so serious in my posts so everyone wouldn't think I am uptight. But I guess it backfired. Now, I am an idiot.

Back to topic, "Dearly Beloved, We Join these two here in HOLY MATRIMONY..." sound familiar?
 
King said:
Well, I was trying not to be not so serious in my posts so everyone wouldn't think I am uptight. But I guess it backfired. Now, I am an idiot.

Forget it.

Back to topic, "Dearly Beloved, We Join these two here in HOLY MATRIMONY..." sound familiar?

Which gets us back to the issue- is marriage more of a sacrament or a civil right.

If its a sacrament, than what happens to our civil rights?

But also if its a civil right, does that mean we have lost our religious beliefs as well, and whether that matters?
 
welsh said:
Which gets us back to the issue- is marriage more of a sacrament or a civil right.

If its a sacrament, than what happens to our civil rights?

But also if its a civil right, does that mean we have lost our religious beliefs as well, and whether that matters?

I really can't see how this can be such a contraversial subject. I know its against many peoples religious beliefs, but I think that history has shown that Governemnt and religion DON'T MIX!!! You would think the Crusades, Isreal, and Northern Ireland might make most people realise that.

I know that most people in massachusetts were against it, but this is not an issue that cannot be decided democratically. It a matter of Civil Liberties. Im sure if segragation was an issue decided democratically there would still be states in the south that are segregated.
 
welsh said:
The idea was that marriage is basically about having a family. While gays can have children, they are also likely to divorce if the partnership doesn't work out. However, hetero couples are likely to stay together "for the sake of the family."

As soon as my little brother graduated high school my parents got divorced. They were just staying together "for the sake of the family", and it was just miserable for everyone invloved. We all would have been better off if they called it quits when they actually stopped caring for each other.

I think it would be ridiculous to say that gay couples overall could do a better job than a traditional couple, but I don't think they could do much worse. It depends on the individuals involved, not their sexuality.

Edit: King, it would probably help you out a lot if you stopped calling yourself an idiot in your posts. If everyone else is going to say it there isn't much you can do, but saying it about yourself just drills it further into everyone's minds.
 
Marriage itself is an institution designed to raise children. Even if married couples don't get along, the very fact that they are married and raising a family is extra incentive to overcome their differences and try and improve things for the better.

So raising a family is based more upon the cooperation between individuals, thus one's sex isn't a factor.
 
Bradylama said:
Marriage itself is an institution designed to raise children. Even if married couples don't get along, the very fact that they are married and raising a family is extra incentive to overcome their differences and try and improve things for the better.

So raising a family is based more upon the cooperation between individuals, thus one's sex isn't a factor.

That's a good point. Who's to say that gay couples wouldn't stay together for the sake of the family as well? I personally don't think staying together when there's no love is beneficial for children, but gay couples with a child are probably as likely to do it as straight couples.
 
Montez said:
Bradylama said:
Marriage itself is an institution designed to raise children. Even if married couples don't get along, the very fact that they are married and raising a family is extra incentive to overcome their differences and try and improve things for the better.

So raising a family is based more upon the cooperation between individuals, thus one's sex isn't a factor.

That's a good point. Who's to say that gay couples wouldn't stay together for the sake of the family as well? I personally don't think staying together when there's no love is beneficial for children, but gay couples with a child are probably as likely to do it as straight couples.

I am being the devil's advocate here and raising this point more for the sake of argument than because I basically believe it.

You are assuming that the ties that parents have for an adopted child are the same as between biological parents and their child.

Has this been proven?

There is also a matter of gender roles. For example in the US it is still the cultural norm that a man take a wife, that the man go to work to earn money to keep his family, that the wife is usually the primary home caregiver. While these gender definitions are being changed (thankfully) people do measure such issues as self-esteem and respectability but their ability to comply with those roles.

Yet in a gay couple, by definition, is an alternative family structure. You therefore are suggesting that the individual's election of having a family is as strong without those cultural roles shaping the parent's decision. Do you follow what I am saying here?

Let me restate-
In a heterosexual couple you have both the power of individual election to have a family, and the cultural traditions of "raising a family" effecting the choices of the individuals in a relationship.

But in a homosexual couple, you may still ahve that power of individual election, but by definition, it is alternative to cultural norms, to be gay. As breaking away from culture, would those same cultural forces that push heterosexuals towards raising a family still be at play?
 
welsh said:
I am being the devil's advocate here and raising this point more for the sake of argument than because I basically believe it.

You are assuming that the ties that parents have for an adopted child are the same as between biological parents and their child.

Has this been proven?

No, but I've never read of any studies of this subject at all, and I doubt any exist that are worth anything. I'm not assuming that there is no difference between biological and adoptive parents - I was responding to the claim that heterosexual parents would probably stay together for the benefit of the child, while homosexual parents would not. Since homosexuals obviously can't reproduce, I assumed they were talking about adoptive parents because otherwise there would be no point in making the statement in the first place. I never mentioned anything about biological parents.

There is also a matter of gender roles. For example in the US it is still the cultural norm that a man take a wife, that the man go to work to earn money to keep his family, that the wife is usually the primary home caregiver. While these gender definitions are being changed (thankfully) people do measure such issues as self-esteem and respectability but their ability to comply with those roles.

In the US it is also still the cultural norm to not have adoptive parents. What about white parents adopting a black child, or vice-versa, or any other combination of adopter and adoptee? Kids who are adopted have to deal with self-esteem and identity issues no matter what situation they are placed in. Should we just do away with adoption altogether and put them all in orphanages?

Yet in a gay couple, by definition, is an alternative family structure. You therefore are suggesting that the individual's election of having a family is as strong without those cultural roles shaping the parent's decision. Do you follow what I am saying here?

I'm sorry Welsh, but the way that statement's worded now I'm not really following you. In any case, the meaning of my post was simply this: I'm suggesting that the belief that denying gay couples the ability to adopt (or get married) is ok because they would be more likely to divorce than straight couples is utter bullshit with no basis in reality. I really wasn't going any deeper with my statement than that.

Let me restate-
In a heterosexual couple you have both the power of individual election to have a family, and the cultural traditions of "raising a family" effecting the choices of the individuals in a relationship.

But in a homosexual couple, you may still have that power of individual election, but by definition, it is alternative to cultural norms, to be gay. As breaking away from culture, would those same cultural forces that push heterosexuals towards raising a family still be at play?

I really don't know. But I don't think that the desire to raise and care for children is the exclusive province of heterosexual married couples who intend to reproduce.
 
welsh said:
You are assuming that the ties that parents have for an adopted child are the same as between biological parents and their child.

Has this been proven?

It takes a village to raise a child. Certain experiences are programmed into the human psyche to result in different reactions. The screams of a crying baby for instance instills fear or concern. All humans are predisposed to care for young ones in need of it. And if they can't care for it, or want to care for it, almost all humans will in the least attempt to find someone that can.

A guardian's connection to a child is an emotional one, not biological. Relations between parents and children are the result of years and years of care and affection (or lack thereof), and not determined on the birthdate.

Not only are humans capable of loving other's children as if they were their own, but lower animals as well. Cats, dogs, rodents, ferrets, birds, you name it. People love their pets like they'd love their best friend, and in many cases like they'd love their own child. In this case, its impossible for there to be a biological connection, because these things are of an entirely different species.

Even animals have been known to adopt humans. There are several documented cases of abandoned children being raised by animals with closely-knit family groups. Wolf-children for instance aren't solely the product of man's imagination. Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome for example are said to have been nursed by a mother wolf as babes.
 
Bradylama said:
Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome for example are said to have been nursed by a mother wolf as babes.
I agree with your argument about how parents are not what it takes to raise a child. However, if you're trying to say that animals can raise human children without problems, then I have a problem with your argument. Citing ancient legends that have absolutely no data behind them isn't a valid point either.
 
I didn't say they didn't have problems, I'm saying that they attempted to raise them. Namely as wolves.

Which is the point I'm making, parenting isn't reliant upon biological connections, even in the animal world.

And Romulus and Remus were used as a grandiose example to try and make my statement seem more significant. Because I was too lazy to look up those cases.

http://www.feralchildren.com/en/children.php

There you go. A list of feral kids raised by varying species of animals.
 
ConstinpatedCraprunner said:
Except, as I have proven, in the Byzantine Empire, the foundation of Christiantiy, for the first 400 years of it's foundation. It might have been a crime, but so was sodomy in the US until a few months ago.......does that make some parts in the US as bad as the Dark Ages?

It was a crime punisheable death. And not just "it could be punished by executing the person", no, it was punished by executing the person.

Also, the Byzantine Empire was not the foundation of Christianity. That must be one of the weirdest statements ever. The Byzantine Empire lay at the basis of a sect of Christianity that would eventually form its own church, the Orthodoxs.

Christiany may have moved slowly in concentration over the years, going from the Mediterrano to North-Western Europe, but it has always had huges bases in Rome and Spain. Augustinus may have moved the capital of the Roman Empire to Constantinopel, but the first Christian Emperors were still in Rome, the Holy Roman Empire was in Germany, Clovis was in current France.

Gee, we're wildly off topic.
 
There are two things I have to say about the direction this thread has gone:
The first is about the whole "gays can't raise children as well.", while this is certailny not a proven or even supported fact, I won't argue that. What I will say, is that I am surprised that people seem to be arguing that by forbidding gay marriage, gays won't adopt(They can't exactly have them(Barring external help)) children. How could you possibly think that? If they can't get married, but want a child, they'll try adopt one anyway. Marriage won't stop that, the only thing that can probably stop that, would be adoption agencies. So, the point that marriage is for the sake of a family, and should therefore be barred to homosexuals, is moot.

The second thing being said, is that it is a religious thing, and that it is a Christian institution, and that therefore gays(who are basically not allowed within Christian doctrine(Yes, love the sinner, hate the sin, but still..)) should not be allowed to marry.
Now this is also a bad point. Churches can say that they don't want to allow gays to marry in their church(It's their doctrine, I think they are allowed to do that(although it borders on discrimination)), but governmental marriage is something else. Marriage for the government merely gives the cuple the rights of a married couple, this has nothing to do with religion. Now, if you deny gays to marry, you are basically denying them rights that heterosexual couples do have. And that is pue discrimination.
 
Get this- it seems like the Right wing is going for the Constitutional Amendment that says marriage is strictly between a man and a woman!

Fucking unbelievable.


From the Washington Post-

Same-sex unions move center stage

Gay marriage enters the American consciousness

By David Von Drehle
THE WASHINGTON POST

Nov. 23 — Such a nice-looking couple, an Air Force veteran and a librarian, both in their late twenties. After more than three years of steady romance, they decided to get hitched. So they went to the county clerk’s office in Minneapolis. It was May 18, 1970.

JACK BAKER and Michael McConnell were denied the license they sought because neither one was a woman. Baker, a law student on the G.I. Bill, took the matter to court. He lost, appealed and lost again.
McConnell lost his job because of the publicity; Baker was elected student body president at the University of Minnesota. Mostly, the incident was treated as a curiosity. Look magazine profiled the couple: “Neither is a limp-wristed sissy,” the writer assured readers. Leading gay rights activists dismissed the pair.
But what started that day in 1970 has moved, in a single generation, from the fringe to the center of the American consciousness. Last week, a divided Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court announced a right to same-sex civil marriage under that state’s constitution. It was a step further than any other court had gone, but only a step — courts in other states have been moving along the same path for a decade.
Vermont recognizes a marriage equivalent called “civil unions” for same-sex couples. Courts in Hawaii and Alaska were headed toward same-sex unions until voters cut them off with state constitutional amendments. Justice Antonin Scalia of the U.S. Supreme Court believes that the nation’s highest tribunal is going the same way, and that laws defining marriage to exclude same-sex couples stand on very shaky legal ground.
Outlandish in 1970, constitutionally fundamental in Massachusetts today. The advance of this idea is even more remarkable because it was largely unplanned and unsanctioned. For years, leading gay rights organizations gave the effort little or no support, and even today, many gay men and lesbians have grave misgivings about the push for marriage rights. Some fear a backlash that could strengthen their opponents; others question whether it is worth the struggle to enter a battered institution. Neither political party has lifted a finger to further the cause.

But for many reasons, some obvious, some arcane, the idea has gained unforeseen momentum in U.S. courtrooms. No supreme court, state or federal, has ruled against it in more than 10 years, and now opponents of same-sex marriage feel they must try the most arduous political route of all — an amendment to the U.S. Constitution — to stop it.
Understanding how this happened casts light on the gay rights movement, on the political process and on the idea of same-sex marriage itself. And it illustrates a sometimes forgotten fact of democracy: Things can happen without planning, without the approval of leaders, with little coordination, preparation or fanfare, simply because determined people really, deeply want them to.

THE ‘GAY AGENDA’ ARGUMENT
Critics of same-sex marriage have long portrayed it as part of a “gay agenda,” pursued through a “stealth strategy of using the courts to force gay marriage on a country that rejects the idea,” as traditional values activist Gary Bauer put it in an interview last week.
For more than 25 years, the marriage issue remained a low priority — even a source of aggravation — for much of the established gay leadership.

That is not how the leaders of the fledgling gay movement of Minneapolis saw things when Jack Baker filed his lawsuit, however. This was at the dawn of gay politics. The galvanizing Stonewall riot in New York, in which patrons of a gay bar violently resisted a police raid, had happened just a year earlier, in 1969. To the extent that gays had any clear political program, it was to win the freedom to be themselves without fear of violence, arrest or job loss.
Allan Spear, a history professor at the University of Minnesota who would soon become one of the first openly gay legislators in the United States, warned that Baker and McConnell could “sabotage” gay rights by outraging the public. “Only the lunatic fringe” had any interest in marriage, Spear said. According to Minneapolis writer and gay activist Tim Campbell, Spear’s view was shared by Steve Endean, another community leader. Few people had more influence on the early political agenda of gay organizations than Endean, founder of the largest gay advocacy group in the country, the Human Rights Campaign.
For more than 25 years, the marriage issue remained a low priority — even a source of aggravation — for much of the established gay leadership. Writer Andrew Sullivan, an influential proponent of the right to marry, recalls seeing Human Rights Campaign Executive Director Elizabeth Birch at congressional hearings on the subject in 1996.
“She was mortified,” Sullivan said in a recent interview. “She called the hearings, ‘Hell Week.’ I said, ‘No, it isn’t. This is our chance to put this in the middle of the public debate.’ ”
At the time, Birch was reaching a turning point in her own thinking, she recalled last week. “We were afraid that pushing too hard on this issue would inspire extreme legislation,” she said. “But by 1996 it was clear that we had achieved nothing at the federal level — not even a simple employment nondiscrimination law or hate-crimes bill. The incrementalist approach, while a valid idea, had no effect. So why not be clear about what we need and what we should be given as a matter of birthright and a matter of being fully participating citizens? Set out all the goals at once.”

‘DEATH AND BIRTH’
What had happened to move the marriage issue from Spear’s “lunatic fringe” to congressional hearings? “Lawsuits,” Sullivan said. But even before that, two important facts of gay life in the 1980s and early 1990s reshaped the political priorities of many gay Americans.
‘HIV deepened our sense of how truly we are second-class citizens.’
— EVAN WOLFSON
Gay rights attorney

AIDS was one. The killer disease had a catalytic effect on the movement, as hundreds of thousands of people came to see gay rights not just as a question of personal freedom or self-expression, but in terms of life and death. Even young homosexuals were forced to confront grim practicalities of illness — health insurance, hospital visitation, disability benefits, funeral planning and settling estates. Matters that were fairly streamlined for married couples proved difficult, if not impossible, for same-sex couples, who found themselves barred from their partners’ hospital rooms, unable to make medical decisions, forbidden to cover loved ones on their employee insurance plans.
“HIV deepened our sense of how truly we are second-class citizens,” said Evan Wolfson, a leading gay rights attorney and founder of Freedom to Marry. “And many non-gay Americans began to see gay people not just as individuals, but as people in relationships who love and care for one another and have needs and hurt.”
At the same time, in other hospital rooms, thousands of lesbians were giving birth. It was a seismic moment in the history of mating, when eternal limitations on fertility and conception were being smashed by science and microtechnology. Babies were being conceived in petri dishes, surrogates were gestating embryos for infertile women, young women were donating eggs to be carried by older mothers. On and on. The idea that procreation was the province of one man mating with one woman was refuted by squalling newborns in nurseries from coast to coast.
“Death and birth,” Sullivan mused. “Suddenly, you couldn’t get into the intensive care room where your partner of 20 years was dying. There’s nothing like that experience to make you realize how vulnerable you are. And then the baby boom, especially among lesbians, made them realize they didn’t have any legal protections for their families.”
Gay people began circulating lists of all the laws, rights, protections and benefits that are triggered by marriage — a list that now runs past 1,000.

‘MARRIAGE EQUALITY’
Evan Wolfson is a key proponent of “marriage equality,” as he calls it. He was a Peace Corps volunteer in Togo in the early 1980s when he came out as a gay man. Even in his little village, he met people he believed were gay, but in Togo there was no discussion of homosexuality and certainly no tolerance of it, so they had to live what Wolfson considered to be less-than-fulfilled lives. “I realized that the way society frames the discussion actually shapes who you are,” he said.
In 1993, the Hawaii Supreme Court concluded that state marriage laws discriminated against same-sex couples.

Back home, he read an enormously influential and controversial 1981 book by the Yale historian John Boswell, “Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality,” which argued that Christian condemnation of homosexuality was a creation of the medieval church. “That book changed my life,” Wolfson said, because it convinced him that discrimination against gay people was “not part of the natural order.” It could change.
At Harvard Law School, these two related concepts came together for Wolfson in a study of marriage law. Here, he concluded, was a clear case of American society limiting the lives of gay people by framing the law in a certain way. Earlier generations had used marriage laws to restrict other groups — at various times whites could not marry blacks, married women could not enter contracts or own property, couples could not get divorced and so on. Those laws had changed. And so, he figured, could the restriction on same-sex couples.
Initially, he ran into resistance from gay leaders. After becoming a full-time attorney at Lambda Legal, the principal gay-rights law firm in the United States, Wolfson urged his organization to take on a marriage rights lawsuit in Hawaii. He was turned down. So he offered behind-the-scenes help to a Hawaii attorney named Dan Foley — and Foley won the case. In 1993, the Hawaii Supreme Court concluded that state marriage laws discriminated against same-sex couples.
According to Birch and others, gay rights groups were caught flat-footed by the ruling, and by the storm of outraged reaction. “Very little had been done to try to alter the thinking of the public and opinion leaders,” she said. “Normally, that is a process that takes years.” Hawaii voters passed a constitutional amendment to undo the ruling before gay groups could gear up to change their minds.

FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS
The arguments made in the Hawaii case were not much different from the arguments offered by Jack Baker two decades earlier — or from the arguments made this year in Massachusetts. While each case was nuanced by state laws and legal traditions, all drew on two strands of U.S. Supreme Court doctrine.
First, the court has defined a fundamental right of Americans to form families by marriage. In overturning a Nebraska law that forbade the teaching of foreign languages before ninth grade, the court wrote in 1923 that constitutional liberty “without doubt...denotes not merely freedom from bodily restraint but also...to marry, establish a home and bring up children, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.”
In 1967, this right to marry was extended to interracial couples. “Under our Constitution,” the court declared, “the freedom to marry, or not marry...resides with the individual.”
The second strand, closely related, defined a “right to privacy” in matters of sex. In 1965, the court struck down a Connecticut law banning contraceptive devices for married couples. As this principle was extended to cover unmarried couples, and then to allow abortion, it had the double effect of pushing the government out of American bedrooms and of erasing the legal connection between sexuality and procreation.
If a person’s sex life is her own business, and if marriage is a fundamental human right, then why not same-sex marriage?
First in Hawaii, then in Alaska and Vermont, courts found that argument persuasive.

‘DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE’ LAWS
Since the Hawaii court ruled 10 years ago, the federal government and 37 states have passed “defense of marriage” laws, eager to ensure that same-sex unions in one state need not be recognized beyond that state. But even conservative constitutional law scholars, led by Scalia, believe that a third, very recent pair of Supreme Court rulings place those laws in jeopardy.
These cases have seriously eroded the power of governments to penalize homosexual behavior. The first, in 1996, struck down a state constitutional referendum in Colorado that would have prevented local governments from passing laws to protect gays against discrimination. The court condemned this “broad and undifferentiated” targeting of “a single named group.” And earlier this year, the justices overturned a 1986 decision that allowed states to criminalize homosexual acts. Lawrence v. Texas declared that traditional values and mores are no justification for infringing the privacy of same-sex couples.
In Massachusetts last week, on a 4 to 3 vote, the state’s high court repeatedly cited these converging lines of constitutional law — the right to marriage, the right to privacy and the liberty of gays — to support its decision to redefine marriage. Furthermore, the court ruled, the idea that marriage is designed to support procreation by men and women is no longer credible, given the number of heterosexual couples without children and the number of gay couples with them.
The court was weighing the case of seven same-sex couples who, like Baker and McConnell a generation before, had sought marriage licenses and been denied. They were represented by Mary Lisa Bonauto of Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders — the same attorney who filed the successful lawsuit in Vermont.
Greg Coleman, a former clerk for conservative Justice Clarence Thomas who now specializes in Supreme Court litigation, recently predicted to a Senate subcommittee that the legal trends that influenced the Massachusetts court make it “likely” that “prohibitions on same-sex marriage...will be held to be unconstitutional [nationwide] in the relatively near future.” That is why a range of traditionalist organizations and some congressional leaders are demanding action on a constitutional amendment to prevent it.

A SIMILARITY
Gary Bauer believes that the courts have finally gone too far, and that a tide of public opinion will block further movement toward same-sex marriage. “I think it’s been hard for people to see what’s going on,” he said last week. “There was a little development in one part of the country, then another somewhere else.” After Massachusetts, “it’s at a point where it is pretty easy to explain what’s going on.”
Evan Wolfson, his polar opposite on this issue, said something similar about the sudden dawning of this issue on the nation. “Ten years ago, nobody was even asked to put the words ‘gay’ and ‘marriage’ in the same sentence. Most Americans never had a chance to hear how this hurts families, or how much gay lives are like other lives. We are having an important discussion here, and rather than closing it down we should be talking about it as citizens.”
Wolfson’s Freedom to Marry project has a sizable grant from heirs of Levi Strauss, the jeans magnate, to sell the idea of “marriage equality” to the public. One of the points he hopes to make is that no church will be forced to bless these unions. Another goal is to soothe the jangled nerves of people who think this is happening too fast.
“This is not about a chess game and some secret strategy,” he said. “This is about real people who want to take on the responsibility of family and marriage. Americans will see that this doesn’t hurt anybody. They will be ready to accept it.”
Ready or not, the battle is joined.

© 2003 The Washington Post Company
 
I wonder in how far it is right for a democracy to ignore it's own constitution(equality for everyone) if the majority doesn't want it. That is an interesting question I just thought of. Hmmmm.

But, what things like this do show, is that the judges are, in fact, quite progressive, while, apparently the masses are not(such as in Hawaii). I wonder in how far this is influenced by the Christianity of the US citizens. Another point this raises: is religion discriminative and causing discrimination?
 
As a Libertarian/NeoCon I think we need to kick all the mainstreme conservatives in the ass. This is absurd. I agree that now is not the time, but still, a constitutional amendment is way to far.
 
The issue here is whether the government has to right to dictate religious behavior. It's commonly accepted among most Christian churches that a marriage - between a man and a woman - is a sacrment. It's one of those holy things that they've been doing for a long time. Back in the olden days, with sticks and rocks, being married wasn't so much as getting a marriage license with the government as it was being approved through the church. Gradually being married took on more meaning in a legal sense, as is edvident by list of more than 1000 "laws, rights, protections and benefits that are triggered by marriage ".

The focus has shifted so much that you no longer are required to have your marriage affiliated with a church at all. You can get it done by a justice of the peace and enjoy all those benefits without the hassles of the church. The principal behind this seems good; a man and a woman who don't have a religion can still enjoy the benefits of being married. But what has really happened?

The government has taken a religious custom and regulated it. Because they (the gov't) now has a hand in marriage, they are dictating legal policies and laws that affect religious beliefs and customs. I'm not saying this is something new. But maybe you never thought about it like this before. The idea of seperation of church and state; how does that fit in this picture? A government agency is in charge of, or at least has influence on, religious morality and behavior.

Let's leave that for a moment and look at something else. I see this issue with two perspectives. On the one hand, I don't think homosexuals should be able to be legally married. That opinon is purely religious, and fairly bigoted. I don't agree with that lifestyle, I think it's morally wrong, so I'm not going to see my government support it. Many people, maybe not on this board, hold that opinon.

If marriage were still a church related function, and not a government, then I would have no problem with a local church saying they won't marry a gay couple. Because in that case, the government isn't dictating morality to someone, or going against it's very constitution. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But i feel a church is free to discriminate based on whatever they feel like, as long as their beliefs don't impose on the liberty of others. I don't agree with discrimination, but it's the churches right to practice it.

However, since marriage is not solely a church function, i believe it is unconstitutional for the government to say who you can and cannot marry. This is because the government regulates marriage, and if they say that two guys can't get married, then the couple is being denied legal rights under a law based on morality.

Does this mean I agree with the two guys getting married? Absolutely not. I am morally opposed to it. But I don't believe that my government has the right to impose morality laws.
 
geekpocket said:
The issue here is whether the government has to right to dictate religious behavior... Gradually being married took on more meaning in a legal sense, as is edvident by list of more than 1000 "laws, rights, protections and benefits that are triggered by marriage ".

Indeed, as you mention lower in your post, the issue isn't whether the government has the right to dictate religious behavior. In fact I don't see any right of the government to tell a church what it must allow in doctrine. This is a matter of the division of church and state, and the state has no business telling a church what it can or cannot do.

The matter is now that because marriage is a secular activity carrying legal rights and identity, can we deny anyone those rights merely because of a sexual preference.

Of course, there is another side to this.
(1) What about incest and pedophiles?
(2) What about beastiality?

Should we allow people who practice these similar rights?

The focus has shifted so much that you no longer are required to have your marriage affiliated with a church at all. You can get it done by a justice of the peace and enjoy all those benefits without the hassles of the church. The principal behind this seems good; a man and a woman who don't have a religion can still enjoy the benefits of being married. But what has really happened?

The government has taken a religious custom and regulated it. Because they (the gov't) now has a hand in marriage, they are dictating legal policies and laws that affect religious beliefs and customs. I'm not saying this is something new. But maybe you never thought about it like this before. The idea of seperation of church and state; how does that fit in this picture? A government agency is in charge of, or at least has influence on, religious morality and behavior.

GP - I think you are getting to the issue of how popular or social perceptions of religion should be. For most Americans marriage, regardless of your religious affiliation, is perceived as having undertaken a religious obligation as well as a legal one. The more we allow non-religious marriages the more we damage that social or cultural understanding of what marriage is about.

I think this is an interesting point. Perhaps some social values should be upheld even at the the sacrifice of individual rights. We may not acknowledge that point, but it happens all the time in thousands of different social activities.

For example, I think most poeple would say that no- pedophilia is a crime, incest is wrong, and bestiality is disgusting- but those are also social perceptions of what's moral, and as such become law. Can you compare homosexuality to those sexual practices? Well today, I think most people wouldn't. Years ago, many people thought they were similar. Homosexual were thought of as social deviants. If standards on social conduct are relaxed, than what is next?

I would argue that there are distinctions to be made, but I would grant you that much of this is really a matter of fashion. It is more fashionable now to be tolerant, if not sympathetic to gays. But this is a relatively new fashion. Should it be given right in law?

Let's leave that for a moment and look at something else. I see this issue with two perspectives. On the one hand, I don't think homosexuals should be able to be legally married. That opinon is purely religious, and fairly bigoted. I don't agree with that lifestyle, I think it's morally wrong, so I'm not going to see my government support it. Many people, maybe not on this board, hold that opinon.

True, although it is in decline. More, if not most, people are now of the belief that gays should not be discriminated against, even if many, if not most, think that gays should not be allowed to marry.

If marriage were still a church related function, and not a government, then I would have no problem with a local church saying they won't marry a gay couple. Because in that case, the government isn't dictating morality to someone, or going against it's very constitution. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But i feel a church is free to discriminate based on whatever they feel like, as long as their beliefs don't impose on the liberty of others. I don't agree with discrimination, but it's the churches right to practice it.

I think the Pope of the Catholic church has made this clear- religion is not a democracy.

However, since marriage is not solely a church function, i believe it is unconstitutional for the government to say who you can and cannot marry. This is because the government regulates marriage, and if they say that two guys can't get married, then the couple is being denied legal rights under a law based on morality.

Ok, but then lets take that a bit further- what about two siblings, or two first cousins? Would it make a difference if they can't have children?

Does this mean I agree with the two guys getting married? Absolutely not. I am morally opposed to it. But I don't believe that my government has the right to impose morality laws.

GP- it is your right to be morally opposed to it. But I think you make a mistake here. THe government imposes morality laws all the time. If you abstract this, all laws are laws of morality. The question is a matter of degree. To what degree do we think that robbery is wrong- well less wrong than robbery with a weapon, less than murder, more than theft.

To what degree do we think that gay marriages are wrong? TO the point that we allow them. That's the question really.

Me? Yes, give gays the right to marry. They are a significant population and I also think that this is a matter of expression as well as equality.
 
welsh said:
Indeed, as you mention lower in your post, the issue isn't whether the government has the right to dictate religious behavior. In fact I don't see any right of the government to tell a church what it must allow in doctrine. This is a matter of the division of church and state, and the state has no business telling a church what it can or cannot do.

The matter is now that because marriage is a secular activity carrying legal rights and identity, can we deny anyone those rights merely because of a sexual preference.

Of course, there is another side to this.
(1) What about incest and pedophiles?
(2) What about beastiality?

I agree with you that there are deeper questions and social implications to gay marriage that need to be thought about. My feeling is that they don't factor in to the decision at this point, due to the government's own policies.

If I recall correctly, it's currently illegal to discriminate against someone because of their sexual preference (hetero- or homosexual) as far as business and government matters go, just like it's illegal to discriminate against someone because of their race or religion. Since this is so, if the government denies gays the status and benefits of secular/legal marriage, it is violating it's own policies. In my opinion, it's as simple and clear cut as that. The government denied itself the right to debate the social implications of gay marriage when they declared that gays should not be discriminated against. Of course, if this is not the case my whole argument is moot.

As far as pedophilia and beastiality: Pedophilia is illegal (and will hopefully remain illegal) and beastiality is illegal in most states and is recognized as deviant even in the states where it isn't illegal - therefore these "sexual preferences" have no status before the law. There's no point in taking that line of thought any further.
 
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