German translation

[alec]

You should when it's needed. There is no difference between 'U' en 'jij' in English. There's only you. And since it's not really good to completely ignore 'U', you'll have to rely on your own judgement.

Oh, I agree, but this is context sensitive, isn't it? I was only commenting on CC's remark that he liked the simplification of 'you' to 'u' in Dutch. That wasn't correct, was it? Things got a little confusing after that...

PS: WHat happens when two countries with the same language split up? You get one counry with an older version of the language, and one country with a newer version.
Belgian v. The Netherlands.
Flemish is really quite interesting, since it's basically old Dutch(Lots of 'Gij' en 'U').

So that's your theory, Sander. Two countries w/ same language split up, and kazaam!, one country has newer version, the other one an old version? It's a little more complex than that, my friend. It works well with the Quakers (thee) vs RP (you), but the Flemish story is a lot sadder. I'm not going to repeat the stuff that you probably learned at school, but do think about the Spanish and French rulership we had around here (until 19th century). There were Flemish movements throughout history, but between Van den Vos Reynaerde and Gezelle, most of our literature was written in French. Actually, it's only since the second world war that we Flemish can say that we are the majority in Belgium. Our biggest writers (like Paul van Ostaijen and Maurice Gilliams) actually hesitated to write Dutch prose and poetry, because they noticed that French still was the major intellectual language in Belgium back then. In the mean time, though, you Dutchies had a chance to develop your language so everything in it became idiomatic. We didn't have that luck, we've only had the same chance since the 20th century. This means that a lot of old Dutch (Middelnederlands) survived in these regions, but it was only used by peasants, lower class, and the development of it was quite isolated from the development of Dutch in the Netherlands.

HOWEVER... may I point out to you that your Dutch was primarily developed by Flemish immigrants (who fled from their occupied country)? The Statenbijbel was primarily translated/written by Flemish professors and intellectuals (and that book was kind of the basis for modern Dutch). Actually, when Flanders was ruled by other European countries, the Flanders had an almost complete braindrain (Simon Stevin, the mathematician, is only one example that pops up right now). I could look all of this up for you, give you dates and names and stuff, but if you really care, go to the library or do a Google search yourself, 'cause I'm tired.

Anyway, nowadays we've become quite skilled in the use of Dutch. And you Dutchies are starting to corrupt your nice language. You guys say 'vater' instead of 'water', your g's used to be so nice, but nowadays it's like you guys have something stuck in your throats (like a hair and you want to cough it up), and your diphthongs become long vowels and vica versa. Huh! That's not evolution, that's just being lazy. Nowadays, our news broadcasts are actually more clear and comprehensible than your's. What do you have to say about that, Dutchy?

One last note: the oldest forms of Flemish are West-Flemish and Limburgs. You know what's funny: those dialects don't have a 'gij'! No, they use 'je/jij', the correct form. The 'gij' form is influence from Brussels and Antwerp ('gij' is Brabants) and since those cities are quite large, they've influenced the other dialects (in the wrong way, alas).

 

[KQX]

PS: WHat happens when two countries with the same language split up?

Check this out:

http://www.labebank.com/languageswespeak.htm

According to this site, these are all different languages: Serbian, Croatian, Serbo-Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrian, and Yugoslavian. I guess I can “legally” say that I speak 8 languages (if I add English and French to the above list). That’s nice but too bad the only differences between the languages in the list are dialects and a couple of words. Well I got to admit that Serbian and Croatian do have many differences but usually there would be very minimal difficulties in communication, right Ratty?

 

[John Uskglass]

KQX, when did you move here?

 

[Jebus]

Anyway, nowadays we've become quite skilled in the use of Dutch. And you Dutchies are starting to corrupt your nice language.

My History of Literature professor actually told us that in the Netherlands, pupils in high school have to watch the Flemish news in order to learn how to speak Dutch properly.

Although, very few people in Flanders actually speak like Martine Tanghe...

 

[Brother None]

Anyway, nowadays we've become quite skilled in the use of Dutch. And you Dutchies are starting to corrupt your nice language.

The language is changing, yes. I'm not going to cry about that.

Flemish is nice to the ear, and more correctly Dutch than Dutch, but daym, who gives a shit? All languages are "corrupt" intermixes of several old languages.

My History of Literature professor actually told us that in the Netherlands, pupils in high school have to watch the Flemish news in order to learn how to speak Dutch properly.

Then your History of Literature professor is full of shit. I've never once watched an episode of the Flemish news, ever (I watch the news twice on different Dutch stations (RTL and NOS) and sometimes BBC or CNN). If high school pupils were forced to watch Flemish news, they'd end up speaking Flemish, not Dutch, so that would be a bit counterproductive.

 

[KQX]

KQX, when did you move here?

In may of 1999. I started high school in august that year. Since then i haven't been back to Serbia. My english is perfect though since i started learning it from a very early age. No one ever gets the impression that i'm a foreigner.

 

[Sander]

I never even imagined that suddenly a new language appeared, Blade Runner. I was saying that due to the seperation of the two countries, two seperate languages started to appear.

Anyway, nowadays we've become quite skilled in the use of Dutch. And you Dutchies are starting to corrupt your nice language. You guys say 'vater' instead of 'water', your g's used to be so nice, but nowadays it's like you guys have something stuck in your throats (like a hair and you want to cough it up), and your diphthongs become long vowels and vica versa. Huh! That's not evolution, that's just being lazy. Nowadays, our news broadcasts are actually more clear and comprehensible than your's. What do you have to say about that, Dutchy?

You do realise that every single thing you say here is completely dependant on where you are in the Netherland? Haags sounds completely different than Limburgs, Brabants sounds completely different than Amsterdams etc. etc.
It's all about accents and dialects, Blade Runner.

You guys say 'vater' instead of 'water'

Ehh...we do what now? Seriously, that's just silly. I never heard a single Dutchman say that.

HOWEVER... may I point out to you that your Dutch was primarily developed by Flemish immigrants (who fled from their occupied country)? The Statenbijbel was primarily translated/written by Flemish professors and intellectuals (and that book was kind of the basis for modern Dutch). Actually, when Flanders was ruled by other European countries, the Flanders had an almost complete braindrain (Simon Stevin, the mathematician, is only one example that pops up right now). I could look all of this up for you, give you dates and names and stuff, but if you really care, go to the library or do a Google search yourself, 'cause I'm tired.

'Our' Dutch is the same as your Dutch, well, when we're talking about spelling and grammar anyway. So just Dutch in general(not just 'our' Dutch) was apparently "created" by Flemish people. Which would explain why you guys win 9 out of 10 Tien voor Taals.

My History of Literature professor actually told us that in the Netherlands, pupils in high school have to watch the Flemish news in order to learn how to speak Dutch properly.

Hehe. I have a couple of interesting stories about Flemish teachers teaching Dutch. My "stepsister" visits a Belgian highschool, and she has had several run-ins with the teacher teaching Dutch there because somehow, that teacher(who speaks Flemish) thinks she knows better than Dutchies how to pronounce Dutch in a non-Flemish way. Really funny.

 

[alec]

You do realise that every single thing you say here is completely dependant on where you are in the Netherlands? Haags sounds completely different than Limburgs, Brabants sounds completely different than Amsterdams etc. etc.
It's all about accents and dialects, Blade Runner.

Yes and no. Even though you might not want to admit it, there are standards in every language (language=spoken). In English, the standard is RP (received pronunciation, also Queen's English, if I'm not mistaking). In Dutch it's A(B)N (Algemeen (Beschaafd) Nederlands). This AN is basically what is used in the randstad Holland (Rotterdam-Den Haag-Leiden-Haarlem-A'dam-Utrecht). I know what you gonna say now: that the spoken Dutch in these cities varies. I wouldn't know, but basically that doesn't matter, because there are always regional differences and - of course - language isn't static. AN, though, still remains the norm: it's what is recorded in our dictionaries (Groene boekje, Van Dale...) and - you might not even know this - in our pronunciation dictionary (which exists). This AN is (or should be) used in television broadcasts, literature, education and so on. It lacks (or should lack) regional differences. Flemish news reporters use this AN, there is no doubt about that whatsoever. The news on TV1 (in Belgium) uses AN, and if you don't know where the reporter was born, you won't hear it. Even our regional news broadcasts use AN. This is of course due to our paranoid nature (we hate influences, since we have been influenced by other cultures way too often in the past). The Flemish are purists when it comes to that, but we do use dialect in normal social communication of course.
In Holland, though, the regional accents and dialects are not viewed as a danger to the norm. You Dutchies have no problem with a news reporter who sounds a little bit regional. The same attitude can be found in Brittain (even on the BBC!). BUT that does not mean that the norm isn't RP, because it is. It only means, the Brittish know that they are speaking a language that is powerfull enough to withstand these regional influences. Same goes for the Dutch (their attitude). BUT you guys seem to forget that Dutch is a very small language, and the accents and dialects that your news reporters use, DOES influence the way it is received, learned, interpreted, mimicked in Holland. Dutchies also adopt English (American) and French influences way easier than here in the Flanders. That's a bad evolution, because it's not a natural change (it's the (popular) media who control that change). A natural change would take decennia and even longer. So, now that we Flemish are finally using the norm and teaching it in our schools, you guys start fucking it up without even a clue as to what you are actually doing. This is not something that I discovered, of course, this is something about which lots and lots of articles and books have been written lately. And it's sad.

You guys say 'vater' instead of 'water'

Ehh...we do what now? Seriously, that's just silly. I never heard a single Dutchman say that.

Than you should listen more carefully: it is a known fact that you Dutchies haven't got the slightest idea that 'w' is not a regular consonant but a half-vowel. In randstad Holland the 'w' is pronounced as a 'v' (full consonant, only a little change in the mouth, really). I studied crap like this for 5 long years, Sander. I really do know what I'm talking about. But I'm delighted to hear that you yourself don't do stupid stuff like that!

'Our' Dutch is the same as your Dutch, well, when we're talking about spelling and grammar anyway.

Wrong. Flemish grammar has distinct differences from the grammar being used in the Netherlands. And mind you: those differences are not dialectical or wrong. I wish I knew the right jargon in English, but since you're Dutch yourself, you'll understand me if I tell you that the 'werkwoordelijke eindgroep (ook in bijzinnen)' in Flemish is often structured differently than up North (Holland: ... had gezien, Flanders: ... gezien had). In Holland you also have a tendency to change "hun/hen" into "ze" and "dat" into "wat" (het boek dat ik gelezen heb/het boek wat ik...) (which is basically wrong, but some linguists see it as a natural change (i.e. grammatical laziness). There are more differences, but I'm not a dictionary, so let's stop here.

My "stepsister" visits a Belgian highschool, and she has had several run-ins with the teacher teaching Dutch there because somehow, that teacher (who speaks Flemish) thinks she knows better than Dutchies how to pronounce Dutch in a non-Flemish way.

First of all: our Flemish teachers and professors talk DUTCH in their classrooms, not Flemish (which is a dialect). Secondly: your Dutch stepsister is most certainly wrong. It's not because you guys live in the Netherlands, that you guys should think you know what Dutch sounds like. Your stepsister = pupil. Pupils = stupid and naive, but always think they know it better than the tutor. Tutor = more educated, more knowledgeable, older too, more mature. The funny story you told (or she told you) is just another example of a student who thinks he/she knows better than their teachers. It doesn't prove a thing.

 

[Sander]

[awfullly long text]

I still have to disagree with you. If you take the news-readers of the NOS as an example, you'll see that that is pure ABN(Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands), and that there is basically no regional pronunciation that can be heard.
Of course, you're Belgian, so it won't be as obvious to you as it is to me what speech is regional speech, and what speech isn't, but the news-readers do not speak some distorted form of Dutch.

Furthermore, Dutch is constantly changing under the influence of several things, but there is no such thing as a "pure" language.

Than you should listen more carefully: it is a known fact that you Dutchies haven't got the slightest idea that 'w' is not a regular consonant but a half-vowel. In randstad Holland the 'w' is pronounced as a 'v' (full consonant, only a little change in the mouth, really). I studied crap like this for 5 long years, Sander. I really do know what I'm talking about. But I'm delighted to hear that you yourself don't do stupid stuff like that!

Hey, no need to get insulting!
I'm a Brabander. I almost never visit the Randstad, so I can't say whether or not they do or do not pronounce it that way there, but I can tell you that I have never ever actually HEARD it in that way.

Wrong. Flemish grammar has distinct differences from the grammar being used in the Netherlands. And mind you: those differences are not dialectical or wrong. I wish I knew the right jargon in English, but since you're Dutch yourself, you'll understand me if I tell you that the 'werkwoordelijke eindgroep (ook in bijzinnen)' in Flemish is often structured differently than up North (Holland: ... had gezien, Flanders: ... gezien had). In Holland you also have a tendency to change "hun/hen" into "ze" and "dat" into "wat" (het boek dat ik gelezen heb/het boek wat ik...) (which is basically wrong, but some linguists see it as a natural change (i.e. grammatical laziness). There are more differences, but I'm not a dictionary, so let's stop here.

I honestly did not know that. But it is rather interesting. Hehe.
But isn't it so that the examples you're calling upon are simply examples of multiple ways of speech/writing being incorporated into one language? Or is there actually a seperate Flemish grammar book, and a seperate Flemish dictionary?

First of all: our Flemish teachers and professors talk DUTCH in their classrooms, not Flemish (which is a dialect). Secondly: your Dutch stepsister is most certainly wrong. It's not because you guys live in the Netherlands, that you guys should think you know what Dutch sounds like. Your stepsister = pupil. Pupils = stupid and naive, but always think they know it better than the tutor. Tutor = more educated, more knowledgeable, older too, more mature. The funny story you told (or she told you) is just another example of a student who thinks he/she knows better than their teachers. It doesn't prove a thing.

You do realise, of course, that I never said it proved anything. It was an anecdote, Blade Runner. But trust me, I can't remember the exact error being made by the teacher, but it was most definitely an error.

 

[Brother None]

I'm a Brabander. I almost never visit the Randstad, so I can't say whether or not they do or do not pronounce it that way there, but I can tell you that I have never ever actually HEARD it in that way.

Yes they/we do. I'm from Gelderland originally, but having grown up in the suburbs of Nijmegen, my accent was pretty much a non-accent, and I didn't notice any weird way of speaking when I moved to Rotterdam (though my frequent use of the word "kei" constantly (keihard, keizacht, keiwarm, keiheet) was funny, plus my switching to a Nijmegen accent whenever I got excited about something).

I noticed it m'self when I visited England. There they kindly pointed out that I "sound like a frikkin' Russian". "Vhat is the problem in here"? Etc.

Really.

 

[alec]

the news-readers do not speak some distorted form of Dutch.

Of course not, but to call it AN is not the truth either.

Furthermore, Dutch is constantly changing under the influence of several things, but there is no such thing as a "pure" language.

Yes, there is. It's called Esperanto.

Hey, no need to get insulting!

Sorry, mate, I didn't mean to sound insulting. Really.

I'm a Brabander. I almost never visit the Randstad, so I can't say whether or not they do or do not pronounce it that way there, but I can tell you that I have never ever actually HEARD it in that way.

Kharn did.

But isn't it so that the examples you're calling upon are simply examples of multiple ways of speech/writing being incorporated into one language?

Yes and no. Of course there are multiple ways to deal with, for instance, 'werkwoordelijke eindgroepen' in Dutch grammar, but some constructions are more common in the Flanders and some are more common in the Netherlands. They are, however, idiomatic differences, and if you study them they become very clear and distinct. Again, I think this has a lot to do with the seperate evolution of Dutch in the Netherlands and in Belgium.

Give me a novel in Dutch without telling me who wrote it, and after reading it, I will most certainly be able to tell you if a writer from the Netherlands or a writer from the Flanders wrote it — just by looking at small grammatical units. 8)

Or is there actually a seperate Flemish grammar book, and a seperate Flemish dictionary?

Hell no! But I understand your question because I wasn't very clear in that snippet: when I wrote Flemish I should have written 'Dutch in the Flanders'. Flemish is, of course, a dialect. The grammars I read and use only mention the idiomatic differences between the Netherlands and the Flanders.

We don't have a seperate dictionary, but we do - of course - have words and expressions that aren't regarded as AN, but are still very frequently used, like 'goesting' and 'een vogel voor de kat zijn'. The funny thing is: our Flemish teachers tell us that using those is completely wrong, while these words and expressions are often seen as very nice and appropriate by Dutchmen. My editor, for instance, loves them. And I agree.

 

[Jebus]

My History of Literature professor actually told us that in the Netherlands, pupils in high school have to watch the Flemish news in order to learn how to speak Dutch properly.

Then your History of Literature professor is full of shit. (...) If high school pupils were forced to watch Flemish news, they'd end up speaking Flemish, not Dutch, so that would be a bit counterproductive.

Oh yeah, you're right. Those damn ankermen at the news studios here in Belgium tend to speak the most godawful dialect you'll ever hear.

Flemish = Dutch.

I speak Flemish, but you'll never hear me say a word that's in the dictionary with "(dialect)" next to it. It's just a different way of pronouncing the language, and building the sentences.

And since in the Dutch they speak in the Netherlands, they seem to swallow up half of the consonants in a word, and seem to have that INCREDIBLY irritating habit of saying 'Nooooou' in front of EVERY DAMN SENTENCE, I can see why watching the Flemish news would teach them a good lesson.

And Kharn, while I believe you really are an intelligent person, please don't have the arrogance to claim you are more knowledgeable than a university professor on the subject of linguism.

 

[Brother None]

And Kharn, while I believe you really are an intelligent person, please don't have the arrogance to claim you are more knowledgeable than a university professor on the subject of linguism.

Don't pull the professor-card on me. Blade did that on Sander, I never like that much. A professor does know a lot and definitely a lot more than a pupil. This, mark my words, does not mean that he/she is never wrong! The professor-suck-up stance is just like the dev-suck-up stance that prevailed on the Iplay boards so much; stupid. Professors can be wrong, y'know.

And what I'm claiming he's wrong about is not a subject of linguism, it's a simple fact. I won't claim to know all high schools of Holland, but I've been befriended to people of 5+ different high schools in Rotterdam, including the three biggest, and never have I heard of such a practice. Hence I label it as "shit". Chances have it I'm wrong, but meh.

 

[alec]

Flemish = Dutch.

No.

I speak Flemish, but you'll never hear me say a word that's in the dictionary with "(dialect)" next to it. It's just a different way of pronouncing the language.

If you speak Flemish, you're using dialect. If you go to a bar in Bruges and you ask for "e pientje", you are using dialect. If you don't use any dialectical words and your pronunciation is okay, you are using Dutch. But that still doesn't mean you are using AN, though. Here, in Belgium, most people who think they do, are just using a hybrid form (een tussentaal).

they [...] seem to have that INCREDIBLY irritating habit of saying 'Nooooou' in front of EVERY DAMN SENTENCE

lol
There might be some truth in that, but I think it's simply adorable. It links sentences in conversations, though. And we use 'wel' instead. 'Nou, daar heb je niet van terug, he?'

Glad to see you're back, Jebus. You had exams maybe?

 

[Jebus]

And what I'm claiming he's wrong about is not a subject of linguism, it's a simple fact.

Yeah, I meant this:

If high school pupils were forced to watch Flemish news, they'd end up speaking Flemish, not Dutch, so that would be a bit counterproductive.

Sorry, I realise now it wasn't very clear.

Of course, I can't be sure if what he said is the truth either. He mentioned it as an anekdote once, when talking about the event of the Flemish intellectuals actually creating the present Dutch language (which Blade Runner talked about earlier on this thread). I just thought that, since he is in the business of language AND teaching, he is probably an authority on the subject.

And did you just compare me to an Interplay developer?

 

[alec]

A professor does know a lot and definitely a lot more than a pupil. This, mark my words, does not mean that he/she is never wrong! The professor-suck-up stance is just like the dev-suck-up stance that prevailed on the Iplay boards so much; stupid. Professors can be wrong, y'know.

Sure, Kharn, sure: one professor can be wrong, but a whole faculty can't be! And comparing game developers with university professors is just plain stupid - pardon my French.

Actually, what Jebus said is not wrong. I've heard exactly the same thing when I studied linguistics from several professors. During phonology lessons in the universities Leiden and Nijmegen Dutch professors have indeed used news broadcasts from Belgian television to learn their pupils how to correctly pronounce their own language.

That is indeed very funny!

 

[Brother None]

Sure, Kharn, sure: one professor can be wrong, but a whole faculty can't be! And omparing game developers with university professors is just plain stupid - pardon my French

A whole faculty of professors can be wrong. Have you ever seen the sociology people of the UvA? Yeeeegh!

And I'm not comparing the jobs, I'm comparing the "worship"-attitude. These people know their particular subjects, that's no reason to worship them as omnipotent Gods. They can be wrong

Actually, what Jebus said is not wrong. I've heard exactly the same thing when I studied linguistics from several professors. During phonology lessons in the universities Leiden and Nijmegen Dutch professors have indeed used news broadcasts from Belgian television to learn their pupils how to correctly pronounce their own language.

I don't recall universities being mentioned or discussed

High Schools, Blade, high schools

 

[alec]

I don't recall universities being mentioned or discussed

High Schools, Blade, high schools

You nit-picker you!

 

[Jebus]

Flemish = Dutch.

No.

Sorry, I guess I should've said "The Dutch they speak in Flanders (more specifically on the news) = AN". I seem to have fallen into the same trap you have fallen in earlier in this thread...

I speak Flemish, but you'll never hear me say a word that's in the dictionary with "(dialect)" next to it. It's just a different way of pronouncing the language.

If you speak Flemish, you're using dialect. If you go to a bar in Bruges and you ask for "e pientje", you are using dialect. If you don't use any dialectical words and your pronunciation is okay, you are using Dutch. But that still doesn't mean you are using AN, though. Here, in Belgium, most people who think they do, are just using a hybrid form (een tussentaal).

As I said, I meant to say 'I speak the Dutch they use in Flanders.' Although, about that 'pientje':

... I do tend to use dialect when I get drunk. A lot of the people I know actually get a kick out of getting me drunk and then listening to me speaking dialect. Damn bastards.

they [...] seem to have that INCREDIBLY irritating habit of saying 'Nooooou' in front of EVERY DAMN SENTENCE

lol
There might be some truth in that, but I think it's simply adorable. It links sentences in conversations, though. And we use 'wel' instead. 'Nou, daar heb je niet van terug, he?'

[/quote]

On a sidenote, did you hear about that new award they've got on Radio 1? It's an award for the most irritating 'stokpaardjes' used by a BV (= Famous Flemish Person. Yes, I realise this is VERY relative.). It's called the "Ik heb zoiets van - award". Just hilarious... Bart Peeters won it, IIRC...

Glad to see you're back, Jebus. You had exams maybe?

No, it's just that I seem to have one hell of a sexually frustraded student staying in the same 'Kotgebouw' as I do. Three months ago, somebody here managed to download *two* GB of data on one day, going over our download-limit. So, Telenet slowed down our modem.

Then, last month, he pulled that stunt again. But this time, Telenet actually shut down our modem... No more internet... My 'kotbaas' said it should be fixed by monday... I really hope it will be, because I NEED internet... You have no idea how enormously usefull that little gimmick really is. I had to spend the last few weeks in dusty archives and Bibliography libraries because of that goddamn jerk-off...

 

[Sander]

Of course not, but to call it AN is not the truth either.

True. But AN could be really hard to pinpoint, since I doubt you can find some form of pronunciation that the majority of the people uses.
I could be wrong, though.

Yes, there is. It's called Esperanto.

Yeah, and noone actually uses that.

Kharn did.

Yeah. Apparently Randstad people suck. Ehe.
Meh, I'll try to pay attention to it, though. I'll see what I can find.

Yes and no. Of course there are multiple ways to deal with, for instance, 'werkwoordelijke eindgroepen' in Dutch grammar, but some constructions are more common in the Flanders and some are more common in the Netherlands. They are, however, idiomatic differences, and if you study them they become very clear and distinct. Again, I think this has a lot to do with the seperate evolution of Dutch in the Netherlands and in Belgium.

Give me a novel in Dutch without telling me who wrote it, and after reading it, I will most certainly be able to tell you if a writer from the Netherlands or a writer from the Flanders wrote it — just by looking at small grammatical units.

Heh. You probably could(By the way, is it just me, or is the majority of Dutch literature written by Dutchies, and not by Belgians?).
I still don't see it as two seperate languages, but merely as style-differences, though. Ah well...

Hell no! But I understand your question because I wasn't very clear in that snippet: when I wrote Flemish I should have written 'Dutch in the Flanders'. Flemish is, of course, a dialect. The grammars I read and use only mention the idiomatic differences between the Netherlands and the Flanders.

We don't have a seperate dictionary, but we do - of course - have words and expressions that aren't regarded as AN, but are still very frequently used, like 'goesting' and 'een vogel voor de kat zijn'. The funny thing is: our Flemish teachers tell us that using those is completely wrong, while these words and expressions are often seen as very nice and appropriate by Dutchmen. My editor, for instance, loves them. And I agree.

Ehe. I visit Belgium regularly, and thusly, listen to a lot of Flemish. Personally, I think it sucks. But that's just me.
PS: I never heard that expression. I like it. Ehe.

PPS: High-schools never use that technique to teach people how to pronounce things correctly. I've been on two different high-schools, and know people from about 6 different high-schools, and I never heard of anything like it.
If it's done on universities, I find it a bit silly, though. You can't teach someone how to properly pronounce language by letting him listen to a minority, because then that is not how the language is properly pronounced.