Glittering gems of hatred, part II

[Smoke_Jaguar]

Kharn, everybody praised you for your work on this articles. You are a true fallout fans' fallout fan.

As this discussion is about what we feel and what Bethsoft targets, most of you argued console kiddies and fans of the previous FO's who like whores and drugs.I don't know how it's over there in the states (I noticed Fallout's hardcore fanbase is actually not USA, but Europe, mostly Estern Europe), but over here you can't beleive how people see TES.

Hardcore gamers, the type that spend their sallaries and dump there wives or girlfriends on/for a game, be it MMO or just online multiplayer, absolutely LOVE TES.And I mean the hardcore ones, the ones that started with X-COM and all that, people almost in their 30s.They, apart from me, have money to spend on games, because they work to game.Inteligent people, really.

In a recent debate over a dinner table at a party (so you can imagine the love for TES) 3 guys - with their wives next to them talking hair and nails n shit - started to talk about Morrowind and Oblivion, they're so great, they're so vast, I bought a new pc just to play it, it's so great, bla bla.

When I mentioned Fallout, they all agreed that it was a good game, but it didn't have a good story.I said, WHAT?Two or three arguments later I found out they were actually talking about Fallout Tactics.They never heard there was a pre-existant series.Ouch.

And about choice and consequence, they all argued that they loved the TES games especially because of that, "because everything you do in that game matters" .

Even my father wants to buy a PS3 for himself, and...yes, he's a lawyer.I can't beleive it, but there are no console kiddies around here, they are actually console men.

It's bloody well hard to be a fallout fan when there's few in between.Actually, the only fanbase here is like, from 19-21.

Screw you, I'm going home.

 

[Starwars]

One of the most horrible things I read was in a gaming magazine in Sweden. They did a 'best games of 2006' deal, and I expected Oblivion to score high, so I wasn't particularly surprised that it was like nr 6 or 5 (can't quite remember).

But what I do remember is that the motivation was completely off-base. Talking about how great the AI is, and that 'there is a real consequence for everything you do!'. That's not even me exaggerating the quote, they actually said that. I just can't imagine where they get this stuff.

 

[Brother None]

They have long look forward too? Shouldn't that be "they have long looked forward to"? At least nothing spelchecking could have fixed.

My bad.

The problem here is the order in which revisions happened. Revision, spell-check, second revision, spell-check, third revision...no spell check. That way some spelling errors do slip in. I'll fix.

 

[Grotesque]

Kharn, everybody praised you for your work on this articles. You are a true fallout fans' fallout fan.

As this discussion is about what we feel and what Bethsoft targets, most of you argued console kiddies and fans of the previous FO's who like whores and drugs.I don't know how it's over there in the states (I noticed Fallout's hardcore fanbase is actually not USA, but Europe, mostly Estern Europe), but over here you can't beleive how people see TES.

Hardcore gamers, the type that spend their sallaries and dump there wives or girlfriends on/for a game, be it MMO or just online multiplayer, absolutely LOVE TES.And I mean the hardcore ones, the ones that started with X-COM and all that, people almost in their 30s.They, apart from me, have money to spend on games, because they work to game.Inteligent people, really.

In a recent debate over a dinner table at a party (so you can imagine the love for TES) 3 guys - with their wives next to them talking hair and nails n shit - started to talk about Morrowind and Oblivion, they're so great, they're so vast, I bought a new pc just to play it, it's so great, bla bla.

When I mentioned Fallout, they all agreed that it was a good game, but it didn't have a good story.I said, WHAT?Two or three arguments later I found out they were actually talking about Fallout Tactics.They never heard there was a pre-existant series.Ouch.

And about choice and consequence, they all argued that they loved the TES games especially because of that, "because everything you do in that game matters" .

Even my father wants to buy a PS3 for himself, and...yes, he's a lawyer.I can't beleive it, but there are no console kiddies around here, they are actually console men.

It's bloody well hard to be a fallout fan when there's few in between.Actually, the only fanbase here is like, from 19-21.

Screw you, I'm going home.

You talk about gamers that started with X-com and now love TES and you exemplify with a bunch of 3 guys that never heared of Fallout? This is impossible. Your demonstration is flawed.

So what if a hardcore gamer who has 35 years comes to me and says that loves TES. I'll not get anxious. I will laugh in his face
Being older does not give him credibility automatically.
There is a big chance that people stupid in adolescence remain stupid even at a mature age.

Your father buying a console its a total another story. If he likes to play console games thats fine.

And maybe you should educate him with a game like Fallout for him to play a legendary game.

 

[xu]

Kharn, that was a fucking awesome read. You go, girl. If this gets into Bethsoft heads (not eyes or hands, because they fail to see the suicide they are facing) they will think about what they are doing wrong and start talking to NMA and DAC.

Apart from that, i think Fallout 3 is far from pre-development phase, so there is little time to make major changes and if even there is, i doubt they will do something. Why? Because it's the mighty Bethesda with award winning product and shit like that.

 

[Bernard Bumner]

The second chapter looks at the way gaming franchises work, how franchises like X-Com have died while the TES series has been thrown about in odd, but successful ways, and what we can expect from the Fallout franchise if maltreated like that.
Link: Glittering Gems of Hatred part II on NMA

Overall, the article has been interesting, if for no other reason than it provides a clear statement of sentiments shared by many of the post-ers here in a way that these fora often do not. Quite often, the discussions here have somewhat confounded the issues, and I think that some of that confusion lies at the heart of the perception of hardcore Fallout fans.

I've visited the site for a long time now, so I have seen something of the evolution of this current situation. I can empathize with those who've waited so long for a proper sequel to Fallout 2, and have often felt hugely frustrated myself, not least of all with so many false dawns and dashed hopes.

However, I do think that the discussions of this situation have often dwelt on the right to call oneself a "true" fan. People have to realise that there is a continuum of fanhood, ranging from the casual to the diehard, and it is sometimes unfair to dismiss people simply because they are not as ardent as yourselves. (Of course, I'm refering in part to those people who don't show the same reverence of Fallout game mechanics and technical design as many here.)

There is a very good argument to say that Fallout was brilliant and special only as an entity, and that any attempts to change the technical makeup of the game will necessarily compromise the quality of the game, and it's authenticity. However, it may be best to articulate this with somewhat more erudition than, "Fuck off, you don't what you're talking about". I have seen that reaction often on these boards.

Now, and I may or may not be being generous in this, I believe that this is simply a product of passion and exasperation; repeating yourself time after time to counter what you percieve as simply wrong thinking is frustrating. However, you do have appreciate that not everybody has followed developments as closely as have those here, and they often don't appreciate the history of this situation. It is sad that some sporadic visitors may have their preconceptions and prejudices confirmed by their treatment here.

I would suggest that people not only see the "Glittering gems..." article as a History to educate others, but also as an opportunity to restate and represent their opinion in a sober and clear fashion. Reserve your ire for those who deserve it, rather than the blundering fools who may - in all innocence - have been misled. You have to decide whether this site should be a peculiar reserve only for those who assent to the true path, or a hub for the wider fanbase, including everything that brings.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

An interesting read, but I can't help but poke a couple of large holes in it.

To begin with, the relationship Interplay's developers had with its fans during the second half of the 90s was the exception rather than the norm. In fact, I think it still is. Developers (and gods help us, publishers) prefer to sit at their end of the table and do their thing, right up until the point of release, and even then it's not certain to change at that point. It's hard enough trying to design a game when the publishers are trying to influence your work, adding the fans into it will make it impossible. This may not be true with the smaller and indie developers, but it sure is with the Big Names In Gaming. Don't forget Interplay was a Big Name throughout the 90s.

If Bethesda (which can be considered a Big Name these days) chooses not to communicate with the fans, they have every right to do so, and in the case of the manners and attitude of the NMA crowd, I can't blame them.

This very thread shows a great example of the hospitality of NMA. I can't speak for other Fallout communities because I'm not part of them, but look at these posts from this very thread:

Funny thing is ..yea they can sit here and bitch about Bethsoft this
Bethsoft that..but when FO3 is released every last one of them will be in line to purchase it and put about $40-60 in Bethsofts pocket.

They make all these silly little rants hoping Bethsoft will read it...LOL
They dont realise that, in Bethsofts eyes NMA is just a little fish in a huge ocean full of sharks. Nobody cares about what NMA feels is not Fallout enough, Bethsoft has the rights and the power to do what they want to FO3 and will do what they feel is right.

Id advise NMA to just give up and stop ranting about how you feel cheated as a Fallout fan because due to the negativity, arrogance and ignorance leaking out of these forums Bethesda has already disregarded NMA as...NOTHING..DOESNT EXIST..NOBODY!

Game franchises are the pimps and consumers are the hoes.. its been like that for a long time...so when FO3 is released we will see just how far you guy's pride goes, and youll be surprised to see how many of your so called loyal NMA fans will be so quick to leave here and register at the "Official Bethsoft Fallout 3 Forums!

Id advise...

You don't advise anyone and anything here. Troll, ban please.

Game franchises are the pimps and consumers are the hoes...

... and you're my bitch.

Banned.

Spoken like a true fanboy. How much is Bethesda paying you, kid? Or do you just like sucking corporate cock? If everyone were as lazy as you, nothing would get done. But I guess some people like to bend over and take it up the ass.

If only Bethesda would stick with Action/Adventure games, you'd find a lot less complaints. Instead, they give the fan communities of various different franchises the finger and build their way into the spite of many respectable people.

And I'd advise you stop calling the kettle black, nigger.

Note that the last post comes after the user has been banned, and is therefore unable to reply, let alone try to counterpost.

Throwing around words like "fair" and "fair chances" in regards to the Fallout fans, while at the same time the exchange quoted above takes place, is nothing but hypocrisy. Fallout games can be made without input from fans, and when the fans are full of bitterness, hostility and closed minds, why would Bethesda even want to try to talk to them? That is a hole the Fallout fans have dug themselves into...and are still furiously digging.

Thanks to the article, we now know why the Fallout fans are bitter. Because Interplay was run by idiots for a few years, whom made especially stupid decisions. But what about resolving the bitterness, making it go away? For the bitterness to go away, Bethesda would have to make a decent Fallout sequel. For Bethesda to make a decent Fallout sequel, they would have to talk to the fans (or so they think). But because the fans are bitter, Bethesda aren't very inclined to talk to them.

Many of you don't seem to be even giving Bethesda a chance of proving what they can do. Yes, their previous track record doesn't give much reason to do so, but how about a little hospitality here? If Interplay had to design Fallout with a flock of bitter Wasteland fans on their backs, do you think they would have been so open and talkative as they were? Do you think they would have developed Fallout the way they did?

I think it's time for some of us to grow up. Accept the inevitable truth that the halcyon days of Fallout are gone, and are not coming back. We have what we have (and thanks to the Fallout modders, we might get a late dessert on top of that) so let's make do and move on. If Fallout 3 will be worth playing, then that's great. If not, ignore it.

 

[Sander]

Ahem, taking LouisH as an example of non-hospitality is rather ridiculous considering the fact that he's been here longer than a day, and his last few posts *were* just trolling. He'd been warned before, too. His post here was a rather overblown reaction to being told off in another thread.
Besides, if you come on to a site and tell them that they're 'NOTHING..DOESNT EXIST..NOBODY!' and filled with 'negativity, arrogance and ignorance'. That post was nothing but hostility on *his* part.

That has nothing to do with hostility towards developers or the games that they make. Now *you* are actually the one showing biasedness by ripping a situation completely out of context and trying to place it in another, completely unrelated, context.

Also, we've given Bethesda pretty good hospitality. However, they haven't done anything. At all. For years. *There is nothing* to give us *any* hope whatsoever. The ball is in their court, and as long as they don't even attempt to see if they might be able to get us to be positive (which really isn't that hard, you just need to be sincere), then much of the 'hostility' toward Bethesda would probably cease. However, so far, there is *only* reason to assume that they're making pretty much the opposite of what we want.

And yes, Interplay would have done this differently with a bunch of bitter fans. Did you forget about Van Buren already?

Also, you can't just ignore Fallout 3 as a Fallout fan-site. That's ludicrous.

 

[xu]

If Interplay had to design Fallout with a flock of bitter Wasteland fans on their backs, do you think they would have been so open and talkative as they were?

Dude, your talking shit right now. Why? Because Wasteland and Fallout are two different things. Why should Bethesda fuck up Fallout franchise if they can create their own game? The profit? They ain't getting much with such a negativity on their backs.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Nice peice. Would love to see a response from their end...

But because the fans are bitter, Bethesda aren't very inclined to talk to them.

Not sure how you're drawing this conclusion, Beth have always been very tight-lipped up to release, long before they got the Fo license.

 

[Brother None]

For the bitterness to go away, Bethesda would have to make a decent Fallout sequel. For Bethesda to make a decent Fallout sequel, they would have to talk to the fans (or so they think)

I'm sorry, I must've missed this, where does Bethesda make an effort to talk to the fans or show any inclination to do so?

Many of you don't seem to be even giving Bethesda a chance of proving what they can do. Yes, their previous track record doesn't give much reason to do so, but how about a little hospitality here?

*sighs* Look up Lohan's post, or noone's. Note the replies they get. Where's the hostility? We were polite to them, jested around with them, made jokes, and then they left.

But where's the hostility? Where's the lack of hospitality?

Now please explain why you are naming arguments that're refuted in the article? Sander's remark of "did you forget Van Buren" is an argument already clearly made in the article. Did you read it? Attentively?

 

[taxacaria]

Not sure how you're drawing this conclusion, Beth have always been very tight-lipped up to release, long before they got the Fo license.

Except for the hundreds of Oblivion interviews and dev's forum activities. There are sites which have collected thousands of quotes before release.

 

[xu]

Except for the hundreds of Oblivion interviews and dev's forum activities. There are sites which have collected thousands of quotes before release.

For Beth opening a Fallout 3 forum right now is not wise. At first they need to hire a couple of thousand moderators.

 

[Morbus]

This very thread shows a great example of the hospitality of NMA. I can't speak for other Fallout communities because I'm not part of them, but look at these posts from this very thread:

(...)

Lol, reading that quote, it's now wonder why briosa reacted like that xD It's an example, of course, of how NMA react to uninformed posters...

 

[Briosafreak]

I'm the one that asks for bans to be lifted and to appeal to calm most of the times, if you see me asking for a ban then something must really be wrong...

 

[taxacaria]

For Beth opening a Fallout 3 forum right now is not wise. At first they need to hire a couple of thousand moderators.

1) I've never demanded such a forum
2) You need no forum to make a fan interview or such stuff
3) Dev's which are active on other boards have been recalled (for example MrSmileyFaceDude at the blacklisted codex)
4) How can you communicate after blacklisting your dialogue partners?
5) Not wise? Not wise is that they isolate themselves from the fans.

 

[SuAside]

So what if a hardcore gamer who has 35 years comes to me and says that loves TES. I'll not get anxious. I will laugh in his face
Being older does not give him credibility automatically.
There is a big chance that people stupid in adolescence remain stupid even at a mature age.

sometimes i truly wish i were just as easily amused & had as low standards as he has.

 

[xu]

sometimes i truly wish i were just as easily amused & had as low standards as he has.

Don't you play solitaire at work? I do. I mean, it's silly and raped through, but it's more like a relaxation ritual, so you can't just judge people by the games they prefer. I mean, not everybody wants to think after eight hours at the office. Hack'n'slash is a great relaxation from time to time

 

[Montez]

This very thread shows a great example of the hospitality of NMA. I can't speak for other Fallout communities because I'm not part of them, but look at these posts from this very thread:

While I somewhat agree with your general sentiment, you chose a bad example. That guy was just being an asshole; you don't act hospitable to someone whose intention is first and foremost to insult you. That's just common sense.

I think it's time for some of us to grow up. Accept the inevitable truth that the halcyon days of Fallout are gone, and are not coming back. We have what we have (and thanks to the Fallout modders, we might get a late dessert on top of that) so let's make do and move on. If Fallout 3 will be worth playing, then that's great. If not, ignore it.

Resignation was not an inherent part of the aging process the last time I checked. Besides, any advice about "growing up", in the sense that you mean it, given by a video game player on a video game fan site forum is pretty much the blind leading the blind.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Note that the last post comes after the user has been banned, and is therefore unable to reply, let alone try to counterpost.

Note, I would've said the same thing even if he had not been banned.

Throwing around words like "fair" and "fair chances" in regards to the Fallout fans, while at the same time the exchange quoted above takes place, is nothing but hypocrisy.

Actually, it's nothing but stupidity on the banned user's part being absent (forcefully, granted, but justified) while his contentious, vassal-like behaviour gets put down with vigorous remarks. Also, your opinion of hypocrisy is what is referred to as victimizing an aggressor.

Fallout games can be made without input from fans, and when the fans are full of bitterness, hostility and closed minds, why would Bethesda even want to try to talk to them? That is a hole the Fallout fans have dug themselves into...and are still furiously digging.

Now ask yourself, why are we bitter and hostile before you come to yet another fatuous conclusion. As for closed minded... well, we know what Fallout is, Bethesda doesn't care. So who's close minded? And the hole you speak of that we are in was dug from underneath us by Bethesda corporate hounds.

Thanks to the article, we now know why the Fallout fans are bitter. Because Interplay was run by idiots for a few years, whom made especially stupid decisions. But what about resolving the bitterness, making it go away?

Yeah, because as we all so intimately know, the Fallout license is in the hands of the fan community.

For the bitterness to go away, Bethesda would have to make a decent Fallout sequel. For Bethesda to make a decent Fallout sequel, they would have to talk to the fans (or so they think). But because the fans are bitter, Bethesda aren't very inclined to talk to them.

Again, you are using some sick, twisted fantasy of yours to give justification to Bethesda's decision to blackout fan communities and shift focus away from what the fans want to what they do best with (Action/Adventure). Read above replies to learn a thing or two. Also, read some more on Bethesda's interviews.

Many of you don't seem to be even giving Bethesda a chance of proving what they can do. Yes, their previous track record doesn't give much reason to do so, but how about a little hospitality here?

Track record? Talk to the Star Trek fans for your precious track record. They'll gladly drink a gallon of turpentine and piss on any burning track record you toss their way from Bethesda.

If Interplay had to design Fallout with a flock of bitter Wasteland fans on their backs, do you think they would have been so open and talkative as they were? Do you think they would have developed Fallout the way they did?

Yet more unfounded bullshit from Bethesda's PR department. You're such a broken, tasteless record, kid.

I think it's time for some of us to grow up.

I'm glad you acknowledge your puerile antics. Step two is growing out of it. When you've advanced to that next, glorious level, stop by and let us know.

Accept the inevitable truth that the halcyon days of Fallout are gone, and are not coming back. We have what we have (and thanks to the Fallout modders, we might get a late dessert on top of that) so let's make do and move on. If Fallout 3 will be worth playing, then that's great. If not, ignore it.

See: coward

Why should we accept your glory-waving monkey-hoot for Bethesda? We're a fan community of Fallout, so either you're uncapable of common sense, or just too damn stupid to try to understand what that means. You may not give a shit about the license, but obviously, the FAN COMMUNITY will. So if you can't get that through your heavily calcified skull, then I suggest you just move on to more simple things.

On a final note, before you try to respond with yet more unreasonable garble, take this into consideration. I enjoyed Morrowind and Oblivion. I thought Oblivion was a decent game. HOWEVER, Oblivion is an Action/Adventure game. I don't know what brainless ape thinks that fantasy automatically equals RPG, but they should be exterminated in crudely fashioned concentration camps.