global warming - worse than we think?

The only problem about this is that by using this bio-diesel on big scale, monocultural crowt can appear, which is not that god for the environment.
And a funny thing in Germany is that this bio-diesel can only be sold because it is tax-free, if it was not, it would be far to expensive.
 
Turnip said:
The only problem about this is that by using this bio-diesel on big scale, monocultural crowt can appear, which is not that god for the environment.
Yes that's true, but the way I see it is that when you start growing hemp on industrial levels, the other uses of the plant easily substitute cotton, chemically processed paper and to some degree even food (replacing corn or soy).

edit: I just tought of something else, actually hemp doesn't leech anything from the soil even after 20 years of intense cultivation, it actually ads some nutrion to it making it more suitable for other crops.


Turnip said:
And a funny thing in Germany is that this bio-diesel can only be sold because it is tax-free, if it was not, it would be far to expensive.
If I remember correctly bio-diesel is not the same as say a pure vegetable oil, since bio-diesel is created from vegetable oils and animal fats. So I think this process drives the prices up. I also remember reading something about Germany having about 70 gasstations where you could tank pure lineseed oil for cheapass prices.
 
Sander said:
And I already explained why your position here is irrational, and mine isn't, and if you think I'm the one who's irrational and hardheaded, you're sadly mistaken and haven't read one word of the discussion I just had with Kharn.

uhm...huh?

Sander said:
In conclusion: go be ashamed of yourself for such a bullshit insult.

PS: Yes, I'm pissed about this.

Maybe you should take a step back, take a deep breath and consider exactly *why* you're so pissed about this? Perhaps the problem lies not only in CC's view of you but also your view of yourself. Heck, one would almost say you're taking this a bit too serious for your own good.

And at the risk of walking a thin line, CC is not completely wrong. Scientists and pseudo-scientists researching ecological effects have been predicting the world's end at different points since '68, and according to those predictions the world should probably already be an empty desert.

This has two reasons:

1. The science is not perfect. This can be forgiven, since it is indeed a young and vast science, but if it is not perfect they should just STFU already and do some research rather than shouting out loud about stuff they're not sure about. That's not scientific, is it?

2. The science-branch needs money. Money and attention, baby. What better way to get it than the occasional apocalyptic vision? Heck, religions have been using that trick for thousands of years, it's not that odd that science would take it over. Even worse, people now actually EXPECT these researchers to predict doom and despair, ever since that became the post-68 fashion.
 
Kharn said:
uhm...huh?
I would've been hardheaded and irrational if I had kept to my views. Dum-dum-dum.

Kharn said:
Maybe you should take a step back, take a deep breath and consider exactly *why* you're so pissed about this? Perhaps the problem lies not only in CC's view of you but also your view of yourself. Heck, one would almost say you're taking this a bit too serious for your own good.
Ah yes, the "you're only annoyed at things that are, deep down inside, true" view. I know what I am and who I am, and I know that CCR is false, at least when talking about this discussion.

Kharn said:
And at the risk of walking a thin line, CC is not completely wrong. Scientists and pseudo-scientists researching ecological effects have been predicting the world's end at different points since '68, and according to those predictions the world should probably already be an empty desert.

This has two reasons:

1. The science is not perfect. This can be forgiven, since it is indeed a young and vast science, but if it is not perfect they should just STFU already and do some research rather than shouting out loud about stuff they're not sure about. That's not scientific, is it?

2. The science-branch needs money. Money and attention, baby. What better way to get it than the occasional apocalyptic vision? Heck, religions have been using that trick for thousands of years, it's not that odd that science would take it over. Even worse, people now actually EXPECT these researchers to predict doom and despair, ever since that became the post-68 fashion.
Hey, I never denied that scientists can't be wrong, now did I? I claimed that CCR's "all environmental scientists want the same thing and claim the same thing and are all wrong because Michael Crichton said so" (okay, so that's a bit of an overstretched form of his view) view was bullshit.
 
Sander said:
I would've been hardheaded and irrational if I had kept to my views. Dum-dum-dum.

Ah. Fair play.

Sander said:
Ah yes, the "you're only annoyed at things that are, deep down inside, true" view. I know what I am and who I am, and I know that CCR is false, at least when talking about this discussion.

You're not only annoyed by things that are deep, deep down true. 's not the point I'm trying to make.

Look at it from this view: you take a bunch of strangers on message boards taking your "skills" at debating so seriously that when one of them you don't even respect that much strikes you down you blow your top.

Dat be all up in dere, daym.

Sander said:
Hey, I never denied that scientists can't be wrong, now did I? I claimed that CCR's "all environmental scientists want the same thing and claim the same thing and are all wrong because Michael Crichton said so" (okay, so that's a bit of an overstretched form of his view) view was bullshit.

Just relativising.
 
I'm sorry, but has anyone else bothered to look at satellite photographs, or are people going by what others say? Frankly, I would trust those who have been educated to be able to look at facts and trust what I can verify myself than someone who feels clever for some schooling and writes books. Which, has jack shit scientific method behind it, if not MORE full of shit than the wide spectrum of scientists themselves.

Remember, there's even "Creationist Scientists" now, but they don't have any proof. Mine is floating a few miles up.
 
Kharn said:
You're not only annoyed by things that are deep, deep down true. 's not the point I'm trying to make.

Look at it from this view: you take a bunch of strangers on message boards taking your "skills" at debating so seriously that when one of them you don't even respect that much strikes you down you blow your top.

Dat be all up in dere, daym.
Sho 'nuff.
"That's just who I am" is a lame excuse, but I'm going to use it anyway.
I get pissed at people making unjust comments seriously, I can take all of the trite "asshole" insults and whatnot, but when someone shows the serious view that I am irrational and hardheaded, that just plain pisses me off, and this is seperate from who makes that statement, whether I respect that person and whatnot. Mostly because those things are exactly what I try not to be.
 
Well Rosh, I'm not a scientist, which means I can not draw proper conclusions just from info, including satellite photographs

I do trust my eyes, though, and my eyes say this is the fucking umpteenth time they predict the doom of the world, to which my mind replies "well hey, then it's not very likely for them to be right this time either, huh?"

(which doesn't change the fact that we have a problem, but they should just stop making these dumbass doomsday predictions)
 
I agree completley with Kharn.




It's been along time sense I could say that. Nice to have you back again, Kharn. *cuddles*
 
Kharn said:
I do trust my eyes, though, and my eyes say
...
(which doesn't change the fact that we have a problem, but they should just stop making these dumbass doomsday predictions)

Cause and effect, really. It doesn't take much to imagine what the lack of polar ice caps would mean and what the sudden introduction of fresh water would mean to a saltwater system, though I suppose it might take some familiarity with geology and meteorology; which I admit I'm guilty of since I was a regular visitor to the UAF for over 18 years. It was a hobby and a minor when I went through classes for CS there. I am also guilty for having paid attention in high school science class and sleeping through church.

As for doomsday, that already exists for the starving fishing villages. Don't worry, CCR, they don't worship your God. :)
 
The scientific method runs on falsification of existing theories. One doesn't make a statement and try to prove it, but try to disprove it. And a good theory exists only until it dies out. ANd scientists make their careers by challenging the prevailing theories of their peers. In this way science makes progress.

Note that this method is different from religion that holds God tells us what to do and you should all listen up or roast in hell.

Carl Sagan says that a certain number of nuclear detonations would raise enough dust in the air to create nuclear winter. The climate gets cool because of a volcanic explosion, I might think Sagan has something right.

Michael Benton, author of When Life Nearly Died: The Greatest Mass Extinction of ALl Times, tells me that the warming of the earth would lead to the release of carbon and methane gasses trapped in ice and the oceans and that this caused the last great extinction. I am tempted to both question his theory as well as worry about what a few degrees warming might do to the air I and my children will breath.

Does science botch it. Yes, that's partly the nature of science.

Has science done right? Yes, enough to consider it carefully.

If Garrett Hardin illustrates the Tragedy of the Commons Problem, than his examination of that problem might tell me something about why the Grand Banks gets overfished, why the Med gets polluted and how to deal with it.

If we can learn that lead posioning is due to lead gasoline emmissions, and that a reduction of lead in the atmosphere due to unleaded gas leads to fewer cases of lead posioning- I would have to credit the scientists for that one.

Same with PCB's being dumped in the water ways, or the health consequences of nuclear testing, or the consequences of smog, or the increase in mercury (dumped from Eastern European factories) in fish leading to one of the first international environmental conferences in Stockholm. ANd the list goes on.

That said I will agree that environmentalists often prophesize doomsday if something isn't done. Often they are wrong, but they are right plenty enough to pay attention too.

Should DDT be used to kill mosquitos carrying Malaria- that's been argued. Probably. Until the mosquitos evolve to be immune from DDT. Of course the questions of why we can't come up with either a cheap vaccine for Malaria or an alternative insecticide than DDT should also be questioned.

SOrry CCR, I question your claim that scientists, as a body, are a bunch of nutty lunatics terrorizing us with claims of doom and catastrophe. If they offer us warnings, they give us reason to check their theories but also reason to take action on our own.

In the 1970s the US had major environmental problems, according to scientists, leading to the enactment of the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, and numerous other environmental protections. As a consequence the quality of the environment has, overall, improved. We can credit the scientists, and not the preachers, for that advancement.

Ok, so the scientific method should have some balance with human value- I will agree with that CCR, but that's basically a non-issue.

The question is- if you dismiss the scientific method for explaining and making sense of your world, perhaps even improving it, what else do you have to replace it with?
 
Roshambo said:
As for doomsday, that already exists for the starving fishing villages. Don't worry, CCR, they don't worship your God. :)

What on earth are you talking about Rosh? Millions of Christians would be effected if anything you are talking about happened; half the megacities of the earth would be underwater (including Rio De Jainero, Lagos, etc..), all of them with 10+ million Christians. IF anything, mroe Christians would be effected then non-Christians, as Christainity generally dominates the costal regions of the world. (See Africa, Mid East, etc...)

And I take insult from the idea that I only care about people who worship 'my god'. JC did'nt say anything along those lines, especially when you consider how many Gentiles he helped, not to mention his favorable view of the Samaratans.
 
welsh said:
In the 1970s the US had major environmental problems, according to scientists, leading to the enactment of the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, and numerous other environmental protections. As a consequence the quality of the environment has, overall, improved. We can credit the scientists, and not the preachers, for that advancement.
I more or less already said that, but thanks for reaffirming it. :)

Personally, I think the best way to reduce our possible future crisis of a fuel-shortage is to start re-designing urban areas to be more convienient for alternative trasportation such as more bike and bus lanes. The faster we cut back our dependance on it, the longer we can hold onto that fuel supply before we adopt to different technologies.

Even if you don't believe that a catostrophic global warming scenario is possible or imminent, you cannot deny that dramatic climate changes are underway globally. As humans, we are radically changing the enviroment around us faster than we can understand what the short and long term effects will be. What rationalization do we have that supports the theory that everything will be all right no matter what?

ConstipatedCraprunner said:
IF anything, mroe Christians would be effected then non-Christians, as Christainity generally dominates the costal regions of the world. (See Africa, Mid East, etc...)
Where did you get this information from? I'd like to see that for myself.

CCR said:
And I take insult from the idea that I only care about people who worship 'my god'. JC did'nt say anything along those lines, especially when you consider how many Gentiles he helped, not to mention his favorable view of the Samaratans.
What does that have to do with anything regarding this discussion? Or even religion itself? We are talking about scientific analysis here.
 
Where did you get this information from? I'd like to see that for myself.
1) Christanity spread by navy to most of world. Thus, nations like Angola, Namibia, southern Nigeria, Eastern Kenya, etc.. tend to have majority Christian population. Comparitivley, Islam spread through conquest and subjigation (with the exception of Indonesia).
2) Christians in non-Christian nations tended towards the coasts, as they could control trade in these areas. See Lebanon, Western Syria, Northern Egypt, etc..

What does that have to do with anything regarding this discussion? Or even religion itself? We are talking about scientific analysis here.
Post was in regard's to Rosh's comment on who's lives I value.

SOrry CCR, I question your claim that scientists, as a body, are a bunch of nutty lunatics terrorizing us with claims of doom and catastrophe. If they offer us warnings, they give us reason to check their theories but also reason to take action on our own.
Sciene is a constantly evolving thingamugig. Take, for instance, quantom theroy (initally rebuked, now accepted), Big Bang (initially rebuked, now accepted, then replaced), evolution (ditto), even any kind of enviormental theroy. Remember when it was MAN DEFEATS AND SUBJICATES NATURE?

I seriously doubt any manner of doomsday talk, as it all boils down to psedoreligious or religious paranoia and notions of the next generation 'being the end of things' that dates back to the Sumerians.
 
The man defeats and conquers nature is a very dominion kind of view. But it's also very scientific- dominant theories tend to exhaust the environment.

I will also agree that if the seas were to rise than mostly it would be a lot of Christians who perish, simply that much of the world's population lives near the sea.

I will accept your arguement that environmental choices require ethical balancing which values human welfare, but I am still not convinced of your claims or what alternatives you suggest. Elaborate please.
 
Frankly, the current situation with less control over helpful pesitcides and economic incentives for enviormental clean up. Continuing enviormental restrictions on corporations, etcetcetc...
 
CC, I advise you to stop twisting around the point, reply to everyone's arguments and actually made a valid counterargument

If you do not, The Rosh will shoot you
 
The man defeats and conquers nature is a very dominion kind of view. But it's also very scientific- dominant theories tend to exhaust the environment.
Ignoring the fact that science is changing rapidly, and will continue to do so for a long time. Enviormental claptrap about fall of society are just teh continuation of collapse ideas that have been around sense the Sumerians.

I will also agree that if the seas were to rise than mostly it would be a lot of Christians who perish, simply that much of the world's population lives near the sea.
The population centers would be something like the Netherlands, I would imagine, in order to deal with insane sea levels. The problems would be smaller villages and poorer cities, and that would more likely result in even faster paced urbanization then massive deaths, as from what I understand the rise of sea levels would be a gradual thing.

Elaborate please.
See above.

CC, I advise you to stop twisting around the point, reply to everyone's arguments and actually made a valid counterargument
Just did.

If you do not, The Rosh will shoot you
He will anyways.
 
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