global warming - worse than we think?

[Ozrat]

The only problem that exists is that one might use more energy by creating the solar-cells and transport the energy (obviously created in desserts) than one is actually earning.
But the technique exists, and is theoretically absolute pollution free.

Correction, you need at put in at least the same energy that you are getting out of these cells.

I'll assume that you meant deserts rather than desserts too. But what are you referring to by that?

 

[Turnip]

Erhhh, yes deserts.
It is about a great vision some people had, to build a lot of apparatuses driven by solar-cells which separate the hydrogen in the water from the oxygen.
Since the only places where the sun shines enough to ad the necessary amount of energy and where there is enough place to build these "hydrogen-factories" are deserts, it would be obvious to put them there.
All this of course wont work if you one does not win energy by using solar-cells.
But why the heck are people building and using them then?

 

[Ozrat]

Because these hydrogen cells are actually sustainable and provide a realistic way of generating energy.

Every power source follows the laws of energy conservation. Just because you can't 'gain' energy doesn't make it a flawed method to pursue. That desert idea works, but so do generators off-shore. Heck, people have even discussed perfecting and using nuclear power to create hydrogen cells.

I wasn't arguing against your position at all, in fact I support it strongly. I'm just pointing out the facts.

 

[Brother None]

Every power source follows the laws of energy conservation. Just because you can't 'gain' energy doesn't make it a flawed method to pursue. That desert idea works, but so do generators off-shore. Heck, people have even discussed perfecting and using nuclear power to create hydrogen cells.

Don't get anal, you can't "gain" energy in the strict sense of the word, but you are using energy which would otherwise be partially unused by humans, that be solar energy

Forget about hydrogen energy, baby. The oil maffia-I-mean-companies don't like it when you do too much research in that field, know what I mean.

 

[victor]

I know, oil-involved companies are halting progress made for the survival of Humanity. We need to bring down the oil companies and GM, then. If I had money, it would be the first thing on my list.

Oh, and take out several of the world's governments (especially the US) out in the street and execute them at point blank range with .357s.

Meh, what do I care? At this point, Humanity deserves it. We've known about it for quite some time and haven't done anything about it. Might as well be the end.

 

[Turnip]

To tell the truth, i think that one of the reasons might for hydrogen-cars not to be sold is that oil is too cheap for them to be profitable
(some of them are already built).
I bet they will become really popular as soon as oil gets rare .

 

[Lukus]

I think this whole Global Warming business is about as 'real' and 'serious' as the holocaust.

 

[calculon000]

A hydrogen-driven car is very close to this solution, since hydrogen can be separated from oxygen using solar energy.
Because water is a nearly unlimited recourse, as sunlight is ,no fossil resources are needed for driving these cars.
The only problem that exists is that one might use more energy by creating the solar-cells and transport the energy (obviously created in desserts) than one is actually earning.
But the technique exists, and is theoretically absolute pollution free.

While I do agree with you that hydrogen cars are a solution, not only are solar cells expensive to make, to generate enough hydrogen for a city your would need WAY too many of them to generate sufficient power. The hydrogen plant would probably use more conventional means to generate the vast amounts of power required for the electrolysis of water on such a massive scale. So you're basically concentrating all the pollution produced due to commuting in the hydrogen factory, rather than have it all over the place.

For the hydrogen car to really work, you need to have a clean and massive source of power for the hydrogen plant.

To tell the truth, i think that one of the reasons might for hydrogen-cars not to be sold is that oil is too cheap for them to be profitable
(some of them are already built).
I bet they will become really popular as soon as oil gets rare .

The people who produce oil will lose out, but the people who sell the hydrogen cars will profit big-time! (People will want a car that uses cheap fuel, assuming hydrogen is cheap.)

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Because these hydrogen cells are actually sustainable and provide a realistic way of generating energy.

Um, "sustainable?" "Generating?" You do realize that hydrogen isn't an energy source, but rather an energy carrier. As Calculon explained, in order to produce hydrogen, you still need vast amounts of power, which would require burning a lot more fossil fuels.

Turnip proposes an alternative in form of solar-hydrogen economy, but there is little chance something like that will become viable in foreseeable future. The technological process requires a lot of platinum (used in solar cells), which is extremely scarce on Earth.

I bet they will become really popular as soon as oil gets rare.

Not likely, since they depend on oil as much as gas-powered cars - even moreso, because production process for hydrogen is a lot more energy intensive than production process for gas.

 

[Ozrat]

You do realize that hydrogen isn't an energy source, but rather an energy carrier.

Yes.

As Calculon explained, in order to produce hydrogen, you still need vast amounts of power,

Yes.

which would require burning a lot more fossil fuels.

No.

Turnip proposes an alternative in form of solar-hydrogen economy, but there is little chance something like that will become viable in foreseeable future. The technological process requires a lot of platinum (used in solar cells), which is extremely scarce on Earth.

Solar power isn't the only source of currently available renewable power. Wind and geothermic generators are also available.

 

[Dove]

 

[Turnip]

Not likely, since they depend on oil as much as gas-powered cars - even moreso, because production process for hydrogen is a lot more energy intensive than production process for gas.

This gives me a idea, cars of the future will be driven by methane-gas harvested in animal-farms.
Of course accidents will get an explosive note, but the air in the cities will get the freshnes of the countryside.
And methan is available nearly everywhere, if in need people could even produce it themselves.

@dove:melons

 

[John Uskglass]

And CCR- why would you trust Crichton more than a scientist- even he says global warming is occuring.

Crichton is as much a scientiest as any 'enviormental' scientist. They've spent thier lives trying to make some kind of crisis in the Enviorment.

Global warming? Massive extinctions happen all the time, as do periods of global warming and cooling, the current one is a piss in the ocean compared to several that have happened over smaller periods (end of Eocene, end of Cretascious, even in the premodern era in Greenland; the icecaps where'nt always there, you know).

Let's deal with human issues before we deal with animals. More human suffering going on in Africa going on right now than at any other time in history, including Germany during the War. I could not care less in any way that some species of butterfly is about to go extinct when such things as AIDS are an issue, and Malaria is still killing millions.

 

[Tannhauser]

Off topic, to Dove's image. It's Jungle de Ikou! in case anyone is wondering. A rather wacky comedy with a large focus on fan-service, you can obviously guess how so.

Back to your normally scheduled thread.

 

[Colt]

If I recall correctly, there is an experimental reactor in the process of being built specifically for seperating hydrogen and producing fuel cells. Nuclear power is probably the best hope we have right now that we can get our hands on and we know works. Yes, it does produce pollution in the form of radioactive waste... But that can be handled and disposed of properly unlike all of the crap floating around in the air from coal and oil plants.

A company in Germany is working on sprayable solar cells and they're having good success with them. If they can commercialize it, it means they could spray them on almost anything. Your car's paintjob could help to recharge the battery or the casing to your laptop could do the same. - Colt

 

[calculon000]

Let's deal with human issues before we deal with animals. More human suffering going on in Africa going on right now than at any other time in history, including Germany during the War. I could not care less in any way that some species of butterfly is about to go extinct when such things as AIDS are an issue, and Malaria is still killing millions.

I agree with this. I'd donate $1000 to the Red Cross before I'd even think about donating $1 to Greenpeace.

 

[Ozrat]

Crichton is as much a scientiest as any 'enviormental' scientist. They've spent thier lives trying to make some kind of crisis in the Enviorment.

Excuse me?

Let's deal with human issues before we deal with animals. More human suffering going on in Africa going on right now than at any other time in history, including Germany during the War. I could not care less in any way that some species of butterfly is about to go extinct when such things as AIDS are an issue, and Malaria is still killing millions.

Thing is that there's so much untapped knowledge about the natural world around us right now. Only a fraction of a single percentage of all plant species have been thoroughly studied for their medicational benefits (and many have been found, especially from the tropical rainforest zones by scientists paying attention to indigneous knowledge in recent decades). Of all the species of life (plants, animals and microbes) on this planet, only a total of ~1.75 million have been documented and classified thus far in human history. There's still an estimated 13 million species to go before we're done though, which shows how very little we really know about if and how the world might survive without them and their interactions to the ecology and its balance.

In other words, that very butterfly species that you think is irrelevant to curing AIDS might very well HAVE that cure. And that rainforest it lived in is what provides a large amount of oxygen and ozone gas that this planet's ecosystem depends on.

 

[calculon000]

As Calculon explained, in order to produce hydrogen, you still need vast amounts of power,

Yes.

which would require burning a lot more fossil fuels.

No.

Ozrat is right. I only said that a hydrogen plant would probably use more conventional means for power. I was alluding to the validity of a hydrogen powered car with today's technology. A lot of research has been done on nuclear fusion power generation, and I think that by, say, 2040, that this will make a hydrogen-powered car vary feasible.

I don't know too much about nuclear fusion other than:

• -You heat matter to such a temperature that the electrons actually leave the orbit of the nuclei, this is called plasma. With no electrons, to repulse them, the nulei are able to fuse.
  
  -You need a magnetic field to contain the plasma, because if the plasma came in contact with non-plasmatic matter, the nuclear fusion reaction would fail.
  
  -Our Sun is a giant ball of fusing matter

Can someone answer these questions about nuclear fusion?

• -Isn’t there hydrogen somehow involved?
  -Is the reaction hydrogen + hydrogen -> helium, or can it be used with other elements?
  -How do you heat matter to a plasma state?
  -Does nuclear fusion generate electricity by heating water to steam and then using the steam to turn turbines, like nuclear fission?

 

[John Uskglass]

Excuse me?

Enviormental Scientists have to find reasons to exsist to. What better reason then trying to prevent the evil corporations from destroying the peacful rainforest full of bunnies and monkeys? Chriton wants to make money, but Greenpeace wants to create a religion. Only person I really trust is probably Bjørn Lomborg, because he's dreamy.

In other words, that very butterfly species that you think is irrelevant to curing AIDS might very well HAVE that cure. And that rainforest it lived in is what provides a large amount of oxygen and ozone gas that this planet's ecosystem depends on.

Unlikely to the extreme. Butterflies having defences against a human disease is extremley unlikely. More likely is them having some manner of cure for genetic defect, and that can be cured without taking the genetic code from something besides a butterfly, and could be concived sui generis in any situaiton.

I am not advertising some manner of total lack of enviormental protection. Rather, when there is a choice between human suffering and enviromental protection, humans should come first. Such is the case with Malaria and DDT.

 

[The Vault Dweller]

Ya...I remember back in Los Angeles their was a little known law saying you cant have "ugly" things on your roof. Solar panels were one of theses "ugly" things and their was a lot of discussion about the government ordering people to take down solar panels they put up as some sort of conspiracy.

Oh ya and anything that effects the environment effects people. I mean were all animals arent we? We breathe the air, drink the water, and eat the plants and animals. Whats bad for them is certainly bad for us no matter how much we hide inside.

I pray my country one day decides to get over its fear of nuclear power and allows more to be built. I hear in Europe some countrys have like 30% of their power from reactors that have never had disasters.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller