Gripes about the writing

Ihniwid said:
Yeah more of a "grey" area would be really cool. This idea of "making your own experience" is still in its infancy. One day it'll be truly unique. Which is why I do not understand all of this hubub about it being "unrealistic" and difficult to stomach...
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Well, ultimately comes down to writing quality. It's below average in FOO, so that's why it comes in more than in many other games.

In general though, CRPGs are very hard to make, and the dialogue system we have has its limitations. The best we have for now, unless someone invents something groundbreaking.
 
when i ordered the game this morning, i was interested to see what other amazon buyers thought of the game. i was quite astounded to read, that some where actually complaining about the tedious text they had to plough through and how boring and slow the whole thing was.

quite amazing... there we have a game, that reduces text to a bare minimum to appease a lower common denominator and yet there are still people out there, not coping with the one-liners.
 
The game ive noticed, encourages you to take the easy way out by copping out on the dialog. I.e. Lucas assumes right off the bat, you ain't so bad boy! The dialog tries to remove as much of the conflict as possible. Even if you pick a smartass response, the game turns it around by basically saying, "oh well, you're right." or "i was gonna do that anyway" type of thing.

you cant get people really pissed off
 
Anyone who played more then few RPGs would agree that Bethesdas writing is in most cases bad. In last few years i played very large number of user made modules for NWN and in more then one occasion i found fascinating that one "amateur" person can write much more better dialogs, story plots and twists then many "professional" writers.
 
marko2te said:
Anyone who played more then few RPGs would agree that Bethesdas writing is in most cases bad. In last few years i played very large number of user made modules for NWN and in more then one occasion i found fascinating that one "amateur" person can write much more better dialogs, story plots and twists then many "professional" writers.
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I totally agree. Alot of NWN modules are written very well. Like alot of users here, I too found the dialogue options to be silly. I know Bethesda cannot come up with an option for everything a person might say; However, most of the options they give you, I wouldn't say either. They are too odd ball or off the wall. I've been playing Fallout 3 on and off since I got it, but I ended up playing more of Fable 2 than this.

I suppose I don't know what I was expecting from this game. I don't have any memories of the earlier Fallouts, since I never played them. I just wanted a solid RPG. In this regard, Oblivion seemed like a better choice.
 
Avaya said:
marko2te said:
Anyone who played more then few RPGs would agree that Bethesdas writing is in most cases bad. In last few years i played very large number of user made modules for NWN and in more then one occasion i found fascinating that one "amateur" person can write much more better dialogs, story plots and twists then many "professional" writers.
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I totally agree. Alot of NWN modules are written very well. Like alot of users here, I too found the dialogue options to be silly. I know Bethesda cannot come up with an option for everything a person might say; However, most of the options they give you, I wouldn't say either. They are too odd ball or off the wall. I've been playing Fallout 3 on and off since I got it, but I ended up playing more of Fable 2 than this.

I suppose I don't know what I was expecting from this game. I don't have any memories of the earlier Fallouts, since I never played them. I just wanted a solid RPG. In this regard, Oblivion seemed like a better choice.
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I found Fable 2 to be pretty hard to swallow writing wise. If I had to choose between Fable 2 or Fallout 3 I'd choose Fallout 3. Fable had some serious issues that made it hard to stomach...but this is all just my view.

Oblivion would be a more well rounded RPG but Fallout 3 goes beyond that to make a more accessible game...I found.
 
Kashrlyyk said:
Eternal said:
... Would you delve deep into your troubled past life to a total stranger at the bus stop?
....
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Would you ask a total stranger to disarm the atomic bomb your town is build around?
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Would you ask some dirty tribal that you can barely refrain from insulting to go find your boyfriend?

While the magnitude of the tasks may be quite different, the premise is not.

If we are going to go on realism then no RPG would have more than a couple of quests. The whole idea is that you go and do stuff that others for some reason either can or will not.
 
bhlaab said:
Okay the main quest gets pretty bad once you find your dad onward.
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yeah no kidding escort quests are bad in any game they've ever been in but RADIANT AI!!! makes it extra-special
 
oihrebwe said:
bhlaab said:
Okay the main quest gets pretty bad once you find your dad onward.
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yeah no kidding escort quests are bad in any game they've ever been in but RADIANT AI!!! makes it extra-special
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Isn't that what people wanted though? More SPECIAL?
 
Ihniwid said:
I found Fable 2 to be pretty hard to swallow writing wise. If I had to choose between Fable 2 or Fallout 3 I'd choose Fallout 3. Fable had some serious issues that made it hard to stomach...but this is all just my view.

Oblivion would be a more well rounded RPG but Fallout 3 goes beyond that to make a more accessible game...I found.
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Not sure about Fable 2, didn't play it, but not hearing good stuff about it. If the writing is anything like Fable one, then I'd probably choose FOO, because Fable isn't exactly a great game writing-wise. Had its good moments though.

For NWN modules: definitely some are very good. I remember an excellent module that is purely text-based, where you have to solve a dilemma by talking to incernations of several parts of your mind.
 
betamonkey said:
While the magnitude of the tasks may be quite different, the premise is not.
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Whoaaaaaaaaa, the magnitude of the task is VERY important. In both Fallout 1 and 2 you're being tasked with things that come at a great risk to yourself (solving the radscorpion problem or finding smiley) but very little to the person giving the quests. They're ways for your character to earn trust. Trust that is gifted immediately in Fallout 3 by virtue of you being an outsider. Sorry, your analogy doesn't hold.
 
Well, as I said.. it may not be the best example it was just fresh on my mind after recently doing it.

Would it be better to bring up the Gecko power plant that people want you to fix out of nowhere?

As I said, the premise is sound. Every RPG is based on a suspension of disbelief. They almost universally task you with 'saving the world' for nothing more than an arbitrary reason to get you playing the game.

Here you are, a level 1 scrub and likely not even able to defeat the person handing you the quest in the first place, but you are the last best hope for humanity. All because they 'like you'.

Suspension of disbelief is a 2-way street. The game makers cannot make you believe the world, they can only present it. You are either able to allow yourself to get into or you aren't.

And on the Megaton example, it's been a while but from what I recall he doesn't just come up and say 'fix that bomb', you have to inquire about it and offer aid. A slight difference, but yes.. in the end it could kill everyone.. not unlike most major tasks you are asked to tackle in an RPG.
 
betamonkey said:
Would it be better to bring up the Gecko power plant that people want you to fix out of nowhere?
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Perhaps not. Lynette wants an outsider to take care of it since she knows it's a shady business. Harold and The Brain need a smooth-skin to deal with VC since they don't trust the ghouls.
 
betamonkey said:
Well, as I said.. it may not be the best example it was just fresh on my mind after recently doing it.

Would it be better to bring up the Gecko power plant that people want you to fix out of nowhere?
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They don't just ask you to fix it out of nowhere. Lynette asks you to sabotage it and you have to earn Harold's trust to even gain access to the plant. Even after all that you're asked to jump through a few hoops to get that access.
As I said, the premise is sound. Every RPG is based on a suspension of disbelief. They almost universally task you with 'saving the world' for nothing more than an arbitrary reason to get you playing the game.

Here you are, a level 1 scrub and likely not even able to defeat the person handing you the quest in the first place, but you are the last best hope for humanity. All because they 'like you'.

Suspension of disbelief is a 2-way street. The game makers cannot make you believe the world, they can only present it. You are either able to allow yourself to get into or you aren't.
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I don't mind the Megaton quest. I just think it could have been handled better. They could have presented it better. They could have had you earn Burke/Simms trust with a few more menial tasks before dropping something as huge as a nuke on a vault-coddled teen from the vault.
And on the Megaton example, it's been a while but from what I recall he doesn't just come up and say 'fix that bomb', you have to inquire about it and offer aid. A slight difference, but yes.. in the end it could kill everyone.. not unlike most major tasks you are asked to tackle in an RPG.
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At Moriarty's you're pretty much forced into dialog with Burke where he asks you to blow up the town, while sitting in the town, having no previous knowledge of you. Many other commentators have pointed out the cartoony evil of the character/situation. Look, I understand that most things we're tasked with in games is unbelievable. Hell, for the most part I'm really enjoying Fallout 3. I just have a few criticisms and these are things that, in general, I'd like to see RPGs progress. With all the talk of "IMMERSION" and making believable worlds they should try to take steps in their future titles to flesh out these characters and situations to the point that we believe their motivations in the game world. No matter how irrational they seem to us in the real world.
 
Well, any of you found the girl collecting Nuka-Cola stuff? I found her to be extremely irritating and boring (Nuka Cola Quantum makes your piss GLOW - how cool is that?), but then you meet her protector. Turns out he justs wants to do her and that's why he's protecting her. Although I like the idea somewhat, I'm wondering why didn't he just rape her and force to be with him (not that she has much of a choice, really). I seriously doubt anyone would be chivalric enough to entertain and protect a crazy girl.

Anyway, dialogues are horrible - although Dr Li had few nice lines, everything is cheap and boring. VO is also a fucking replay from Oblivion (and we all now what that means). The game is too nerdy and immature (too much emphashis on the "cool stoof", like the FatmAn, nuka cola grenades, slow mo death and ripping limbs off).

I wasn't expecting more, really, but I feel like I wasted my money. Hell, Neverwinter Nights 2 had better dialogues (was a better RPG overall). And I'm not talking about the MotB.
 
Per said:
betamonkey said:
Would it be better to bring up the Gecko power plant that people want you to fix out of nowhere?
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Perhaps not. Lynette wants an outsider to take care of it since she knows it's a shady business. Harold and The Brain need a smooth-skin to deal with VC since they don't trust the ghouls.
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And praytell why would they ask someone they have never encountered to do this?

And why couldn't that logic be applied to Fallout 3? Maybe Simms thinks someone fresh out of the vault would be appropriate for dealing with pre-war technology and since you are likely not corrupted by the wasteland you would be a good choice?

Don't fall into a double standard where it's okay for one to make this leap and not another.

If you are going to hold everything to the standard you think FO3 falls short of then practically everything in RPGs fall short, barring a few exceptions of self-imposed quests.

With all the talk of "IMMERSION" and making believable worlds
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Immersion is not interchangable with realism, fwiw.

You can be completely immersed in a completely unrealistic game and the most believable game ever made may not immerse you.

Immersion is just a buzzword, and as much as I see it used here I am surprised. I'd figure this crowd, if any, would pick that up.
 
betamonkey said:
And praytell why would they ask someone they have never encountered to do this?

And why couldn't that logic be applied to Fallout 3? Maybe Simms thinks someone fresh out of the vault would be appropriate for dealing with pre-war technology and since you are likely not corrupted by the wasteland you would be a good choice?
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There's a difference here.
First of all, the Vault City situation is basically a win-win situation. Either he fixes it, or not, or maybe he gives Lynette an excuse to invade. It can't really get any worse for Vault City anyway. Furthermore, it's probably impossible for a Vault City resident to get inside the core given the distrust the ghouls have for Vault City.

Secondly, the situation with Megaton is entirely different. The bomb is located inside city borders, Simms can simply walk up to it and disarm it if he has the knowledge, and I'm pretty sure that Moira has enough explosive knowledge to do it considering the insane requirement of 25 explosives skill!

betamonkeY said:
Don't fall into a double standard where it's okay for one to make this leap and not another.

If you are going to hold everything to the standard you think FO3 falls short of then practically everything in RPGs fall short, barring a few exceptions of self-imposed quests.
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Hah!
This sounds an awful lot like 'Well they weren't any better, why should this be better"?
Not a really good argument.
 
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