Gstaff clarifies 24-hour town pacification

[Claw]

I have nothing against people disliking something but it is frustrating when instead of explaining why, they think that as they are on 'home ground' its perfectly viable to act in a smug, dismissive manner.

You don't have to be frustrated, you know. You have the choice of not reading these forums, avoiding all related frustration.

 

[squinty]

If someone goes to the trouble to write a detailed post, the least others could do is either reply with valid points or provide a link to past threads that would be of help. Its just good manners. Acting like a smug prick just perpetuates the idea that NMA regulars have blinkers on with no desire to peddle anything but hate. . . . . . which I know not to be true because many of them are very accommodating in their posts (Ausir).

 

[Beelzebud]

72 hours of rest time? Well that certainly more than makes up for an in-depth reputation system that tracked your reputation level with each town.

/me pukes.

 

[Bodybag]

Oh man oh man I hope they were stupid enough to actually use Radiant AI to keep track of these variables.

You don't hope the game is as good as possible? You're rooting for the opposite?

frowny

 

[UncannyGarlic]

A month is the shortest time that would make sense. If they attack you at first then they aren't going to be afraid of you three days later, that's just stupid.

Speak for yourself. Three days later they might be scared. A month later they'll be prepared (But theres no way Beth will have the game 'think' that far ahead). Tis a brutal and lawless place after all.

They're not going to go from being outraged and bloodthirsty to cowering in a corner by the player wandering around doing nothing. The only way that they wouldn't attack you by doing nothing for a period of time is if their anger subsides, hence the longer time period. As for being prepared, the town is going to worry much more about a subsequent attack from a specific individual in the short term rather than the long term and are certainly going to be more riled up about it in three days than in thiry.

 

[Moester]

This should be a perk:

Forgettable Face
You blend in with the crowd. After three days no one can remember the atrocities you have perpetrated against them.

Brilliant. Moester comes along with a well written post and some interesting points. Maybe he thought an interesting discussion might arise. . . . . but no. Half baked, snide comments as usual. I have nothing against people disliking something but it is frustrating when instead of explaining why, they think that as they are on 'home ground' its perfectly viable to act in a smug, dismissive manner. I mean they can, but it does smack of not actually having alot to say.

This forum has been here a long time. Even very patient, thoughtful people can't keep discussing the same things over and over again for years. If many of the posters here are fairly set in their opinions it's because they've heard every argument 100 times over.

Go ahead and read the archives. That's what I did before I started posting.

While I agree that the same thing can't be argued over and over again, we're talking about something that was just released.

While I can't pretend to have read every previous entry, I don't see why it would be a requirement to have read every single post on the boards. And to be honest, I have absolutely no intention of going through, years of posts just in case I might repeat something. And if I'm expected to, might as well tell me now, and I'll make my way over somewhere else. I've got enough work to do in my life that I don't want to have to research a board's history to freakin' post on it.

As far as "radiant AI" or lack thereof, I don't care what you call it, Oblivion had AI problems because the AI problems tried to do too much at the same time. And while I understand that many of the old school guys here have less respect for Bethesda than they do for dog-shit, I think that they will at the very least attempt to fix the AI problems Oblivion had for Fallout 3's release.

 

[shihonage]

Washington DC is barely more than a pile of rocks in Fallout 3. Bombed out buildings house snipers that make your life hell and many of the roads are blocked off by rubble.

Is there a reason why there are people sniping 24/7 instead of trying to lead their lives, whatever those may be ?

 

[UncannyGarlic]

As far as "radiant AI" or lack thereof, I don't care what you call it, Oblivion had AI problems because the AI problems tried to do too much at the same time. And while I understand that many of the old school guys here have less respect for Bethesda than they do for dog-shit, I think that they will at the very least attempt to fix the AI problems Oblivion had for Fallout 3's release.

No, they had AI problems because they lied about it and made a scripted video that presented a system that was no it the game and because they had subpar programmers working on it (other games from the same time have better AI). The former is far more important than the latter, if only the latter was the issue then people would comment on the poor AI but the animosity level towards it would be no where near as high.

As for improving it, the only improvements that we've heard of is that NPCs can now lean against things (like walls). That's the only thing that we've been told that they've improved. If they had AI equivalent to what they showed in the E3 Oblivion trailer then we'd know because they would have put out a video showing it off.

 

[sarfa]

A month is the shortest time that would make sense. If they attack you at first then they aren't going to be afraid of you three days later, that's just stupid.

Speak for yourself. Three days later they might be scared. A month later they'll be prepared (But theres no way Beth will have the game 'think' that far ahead). Tis a brutal and lawless place after all.

They're not going to go from being outraged and bloodthirsty to cowering in a corner by the player wandering around doing nothing. The only way that they wouldn't attack you by doing nothing for a period of time is if their anger subsides, hence the longer time period. As for being prepared, the town is going to worry much more about a subsequent attack from a specific individual in the short term rather than the long term and are certainly going to be more riled up about it in three days than in thiry.

It all takes time. Fear, especially when ones life is in danger can take over very quickly. Once the initial confrontation is over, should you suddenly turn up again without attacking first most people would try and keep things calm- they don't want to die first.

Preparation for an attack however takes time, so while they'll be more angry in the short term, they'll have had much less time to be prepared and thus will be less well prepared. Good preparation for these things usually requires no longer being riled up.

 

[Outlander]

As far as "radiant AI" or lack thereof, I don't care what you call it, Oblivion had AI problems because the AI problems tried to do too much at the same time. And while I understand that many of the old school guys here have less respect for Bethesda than they do for dog-shit, I think that they will at the very least attempt to fix the AI problems Oblivion had for Fallout 3's release.

No, they had AI problems because they lied about it and made a scripted video that presented a system that was no it the game and because they had subpar programmers working on it (other games from the same time have better AI). The former is far more important than the latter, if only the latter was the issue then people would comment on the poor AI but the animosity level towards it would be no where near as high.

As for improving it, the only improvements that we've heard of is that NPCs can now lean against things (like walls). That's the only thing that we've been told that they've improved. If they had AI equivalent to what they showed in the E3 Oblivion trailer then we'd know because they would have put out a video showing it off.

Gothic 1 had a clearly more complex, elaborate, effective and realistic AI, and that game was released 7 years before Oblivion. G1 being at the time programmed by a handful of rookie german dudes in a flat. Bethesda is just a synonym for the word 'mediocre'.

 

[Gentlemen]

Washington DC is barely more than a pile of rocks in Fallout 3. Bombed out buildings house snipers that make your life hell and many of the roads are blocked off by rubble.

Is there a reason why there are people sniping 24/7 instead of trying to lead their lives, whatever those may be ?

They plan to take your stuff and sell it when you die. At least, that's what I think they want. For all you know, they want to sodomize your corpse.

 

[Sergei Quaid]

Or maybe they just like to stay still and snipe people eh? I mean, who knows!

 

[remmah]

Washington DC is barely more than a pile of rocks in Fallout 3. Bombed out buildings house snipers that make your life hell and many of the roads are blocked off by rubble.

Is there a reason why there are people sniping 24/7 instead of trying to lead their lives, whatever those may be ?

Perhaps, they live in those bombed out houses, and are just scavengers. Then again, they might be there to protect something that we don't know about yet.

 

[mandrake776]

Bethesda is just a synonym for the word 'mediocre'.

Pretty sure it's just a town in Maryland.

 

[Moester]

As far as "radiant AI" or lack thereof, I don't care what you call it, Oblivion had AI problems because the AI problems tried to do too much at the same time. And while I understand that many of the old school guys here have less respect for Bethesda than they do for dog-shit, I think that they will at the very least attempt to fix the AI problems Oblivion had for Fallout 3's release.

No, they had AI problems because they lied about it and made a scripted video that presented a system that was no it the game and because they had subpar programmers working on it (other games from the same time have better AI). The former is far more important than the latter, if only the latter was the issue then people would comment on the poor AI but the animosity level towards it would be no where near as high.

As for improving it, the only improvements that we've heard of is that NPCs can now lean against things (like walls). That's the only thing that we've been told that they've improved. If they had AI equivalent to what they showed in the E3 Oblivion trailer then we'd know because they would have put out a video showing it off.

Gothic 1 had a clearly more complex, elaborate, effective and realistic AI, and that game was released 7 years before Oblivion. G1 being at the time programmed by a handful of rookie german dudes in a flat. Bethesda is just a synonym for the word 'mediocre'.

Well considering that Gothic was released less than 7 years ago, and that oblivion was released over two and half years ago...I can't agree with your math.

Also, while Gothic had a better conversation system, the AI was basically average. There was nothing about Gothic that made me think it was anything better than average.

But I seriously doubt that I'll be able to make any argument that is anything other than "Bethesda is peopled by idiots" that won't be shouted down with the same old arguments. But unless you find me some actual reference material that states that Fallout 3 uses an identical AI engine than Oblivion did with no improvements I'm going to believe that they've corrected at least a few of the known errors.

 

[Brother None]

Oh man oh man I hope they were stupid enough to actually use Radiant AI to keep track of these variables.

You don't hope the game is as good as possible? You're rooting for the opposite?

frowny

Heh. You're not even trying to use logic anymore when shoving people into these preconceived boxes you have, desperately trying to attribute ridiculous opinions to reasonable people. I applaud your Something Awful-rhetoric, Bodybag, I applaud it mightily.

But I seriously doubt that I'll be able to make any argument that is anything other than "Bethesda is peopled by idiots" that won't be shouted down with the same old arguments.

Drop the bullshit, I'm not interest in your little victim act. If you want to debate people, debate them. Pull this kind of nonsense again and I'll mark it trolling and give you a strike.

I'm sorry it hurts your feelings that people counter your arguments, tho'

But unless you find me some actual reference material that states that Fallout 3 uses an identical AI engine than Oblivion did with no improvements I'm going to believe that they've corrected at least a few of the known errors.

They're probably using Radiant AI less if that's what you mean, but the basic engine and AI system are identical for Oblivion and Fallout 3. They've promised they fixed it up multiple times now, but as I said right after the Leipzig demo, no improved Radiant AI was visible. Hence I'm just assuming they use less of it, and call that an improvement (which I guess it would be?)

If someone goes to the trouble to write a detailed post, the least others could do is either reply with valid points or provide a link to past threads that would be of help. Its just good manners.

Actually, the basic "good manners" requirement is that you lurk for a while, get a feel for what arguments are so done-to-death that they're just going to piss people off, and then post. Not just join, post wildly and expect the community to adapt to your fascinating insights.

Anyway, Moester's post wasn't actually saying anything (just a lot of "I think they would have", "I hope they have" speculation). Not exactly insightful stuff, so I'm not sure what anyone should have replied in your optic anyway

 

[Outlander]

Well considering that Gothic was released less than 7 years ago, and that oblivion was released over two and half years ago...I can't agree with your math.

Also, while Gothic had a better conversation system, the AI was basically average. There was nothing about Gothic that made me think it was anything better than average.

But I seriously doubt that I'll be able to make any argument that is anything other than "Bethesda is peopled by idiots" that won't be shouted down with the same old arguments. But unless you find me some actual reference material that states that Fallout 3 uses an identical AI engine than Oblivion did with no improvements I'm going to believe that they've corrected at least a few of the known errors.

Sorry, my bad, the time space between the releases of Gothic and Oblivion is actually 5 years, which is still a ridiculously long period of time to improve on the standards of the market, but despite that, Bethesda actually took a few steps back in the AI department, and they even market it like a revolutionary technology!

To each his own, but if you thought the AI from Gothic was average, then you must agree that the AI in Oblivion is catastrophically dumb and broken.

 

[Moester]

Well considering that Gothic was released less than 7 years ago, and that oblivion was released over two and half years ago...I can't agree with your math.

Also, while Gothic had a better conversation system, the AI was basically average. There was nothing about Gothic that made me think it was anything better than average.

But I seriously doubt that I'll be able to make any argument that is anything other than "Bethesda is peopled by idiots" that won't be shouted down with the same old arguments. But unless you find me some actual reference material that states that Fallout 3 uses an identical AI engine than Oblivion did with no improvements I'm going to believe that they've corrected at least a few of the known errors.

Sorry, my bad, the time space between the releases of Gothic and Oblivion is actually 5 years, which is still a ridiculously long period of time to improve on the standards of the market, but despite that, Bethesda actually took a few steps back in the AI department, and they even market it like a revolutionary technology!

To each his own, but if you thought the AI from Gothic was average, then you must agree that the AI in Oblivion is catastrophically dumb and broken.

Well, I do think that Oblivion had some AI issues, I've never denied it. I don't see it as broken per-se as it works well in over 98% of situations...The other 2% it's so bad that it's ass-tastic that if you get hung up on it, it's easy to see it as broken.

To be honest, I haven't see a game that's improved AI since Deus-Ex. Sure shooters have much smarter combat decisioning, but in non-combat interactions I haven't seen anything better than the "on rails" characters. As a matter of fact, Oblivion was the first game I saw in a long time that tried to do something new with its NPCs. I mean show me another game where NPCs actually moved and interacted with one another in dynamic ways. Sure it led to some NPCs running into walls and some wonky movements, but I had to give them points for trying something new.

Maybe I just don't play enough games, but I haven't seen any real improvement in AIs in over a decade. I saw a lot of potential with Radial AI and I am hopeful to see improvements in Fallout 3. Out of all the previews I've read, I've yet to read anything negative about the AI or even the physics engine...Which sounds to me like they've tightened them up.

 

[Brother None]

AI is the ugly little sister of gaming, people prefer not to talk about it and every now and again someone smears some makeup on it and calls it improved.

That said, Oblivion does stand out in the horrendous AI section. I think you're being way too forgiving with 98%, unless you're counting all the times NPCs wander around and stare at walls as "a success". You'll note in Gothic they actually had activities, sat around and sung at appropriate times, forged weapons, cooked food - Oblivion falls way short there.

The NPC-to-NPC interaction is botched almost every time it is tested by the player, and sometimes even botched when you don't interject. From guards talking about the Dark Brotherhood (not to mention the guard's odd praising of your blade skill before arresting you) to people attacking their own dogs because they like you so much. Heck, I myself saw the hilarity of a guard slaughtering sailors because I walked onto their ship - I broke the law and the guard attacks them. This was what - a few hours into playing Oblivion for the first time, and already the AI majorly messes up.

I mean show me another game where NPCs actually moved and interacted with one another in dynamic ways.

Are you serious? Gothic had people move around and interact in dynamics ways - they only cut out a lot of the audible conversation because they realised (and Bethesda didn't) that otherwise you'd get stupid, repetitive conversations ("I saw a mudcrab the other day").

People will know more examples, but another one that comes to mind is GTA: San Andreas, a year older than Oblivion.

Out of all the previews I've read, I've yet to read anything negative about the AI or even the physics engine...Which sounds to me like they've tightened them up.

Heh. None of the reviews for Oblivion talk much about the broken AI. Every player encountered it, it was openly mocked on forums and Youtube, yet journalists acted like their nose bled and just ignored it.

And you honestly take previews not mentioning it as proof that it's improved? I hope you're joking.

Also on the topic of Radiant AI: to hear pretty much anyone who had a serious look at how it works (modders) talk about it, it's actually one of the simplest AI systems around. That turns the excuse of "Bethesda had too much ambition and that's why a complex AI system broke down" into "Oblivion has a stupid AI system and that proves Bethesda just can't do AI".

 

[Black]

Out of all the previews I've read, I've yet to read anything negative about the AI or even the physics engine

I know it's kinda radical, but how about watching dem demos? Bridge crossing for example.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O9z4h2VC7Yg