Gun control thread yay

welsh said:
Swiss consider gun control - in large part because of rates of sucide and occassional cases of rampages.
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yeah, because taking away the tool will surely lower suiciderates, amiright?

either way, you'll also note that this is happening as swiss politics is taking moving closer to the extreme right of the political spectrum.



either way, generally speaking, the vast majority of politicians and citizens are absolutely clueless when it comes to guns. they're easily frightened by the media and tend to always overreact (case in point, the latest belgian gunlaw, barely increasing public safety -if at all- but effectively stripping the rights of ownership of a great many people). this environment is less than favorable for recreative shooters such as myself on ze european continent. woe me.
 
fallout ranger said:
So do we ban cars because they can kill? Or do we just make sure those that have proven themselves incompetent not be allowed to drive?
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Cars have a primary purpose : transportation
Guns also have a primary purpose : killing people

sure a gun is for protection and deterence in the same way a car has secondary uses like shelter - comes in handy when its needed.

dont get me wrong i like guns, and i think people should be allowed to safely use them for recreative activities in an organized and isolated enviroment - i'm just not that big on people owning such single-purpose, indiscriminate and easy to use objects.

also i'm sure the rate of suicides and random killing would get way lower if the means to kill yourself and others would be a bit more painful and complicated. sure he can go on a killing spree with a knife but lets see how far he gets compared to when he has a gun.

i'm almost ok with people owning guns if they undertake psychological tests on par with those of the police force ... because you are trustin a fellow citizen with your life ... not just his and you wanna be sure he's not having any .. issues.

i'm all for personal liberties ... even suicide, just not the ability to easily kill other people.

welsh had a way more rational and elegant post then what i'm saying but what the heck :)
 
dont get me wrong i like guns, and i think people should be allowed to safely use them for recreative activities in an organized and isolated enviroment - i'm just not that big on people owning such single-purpose, indiscriminate and easy to use objects.
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Come on, the ol' I like guns but not what they do..... AGAIN!

i'm almost ok with people owning guns if they undertake psychological tests on par with those of the police force ... because you are trustin a fellow citizen with your life ... not just his and you wanna be sure he's not having any .. issues.
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Actually that would probably be a nice safety net, if the people who legitimately purchased guns are the ones who usually go on random killing sprees.

also i'm sure the rate of suicides and random killing would get way lower if the means to kill yourself and others would be a bit more painful and complicated.

i'm all for personal liberties ... even suicide, just not the ability to easily kill other people.
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So ummm you want people to to kill themselves in a more complicated and painful matter?

Also, it's been said so many times before on this thread people are (randomly) easy to kill with just about anything knives, cars, dropping bricks from your fourth story apartment window, etc.

I stand on the better to have and not need, than need and not have of firearm ownership(with all applicable determined laws and regulations hereto established in this thread). :wink:
 
Because they cannot overcome the raw genius (apart from his love of Aliens) that is Paladin Solo, duh.
 
This is true.

It's so true, there is probably an achievement for preaching the truth somewhere in the achievement closet, ifyaknowwhatimean.
 
I nominate Paladin Solo as vicechancellor of all the world! You can get me that achievement, right?
 
@paladin solo.

sorry for retreading some points that have allready been made.

i'm going to leave the suicide bit alone because i think that people should be free to off themselves :P

that being said you cant tell me people are easier to be killed with knives, cars, dropping bricks than with a gun ... you'll kill one guy with a knife but i'm sure you wont get to kill 10 in a row ... same with the brick while with a gun even a retard has a pretty good chance of producing a quite fancy killing spree. (and i know this too has been said before so sorry)

and yes i like guns - i like weapons because ima man :) lol seriously ... but outside this i have to be real about it ... random citizens and dedicated killing tools dont mix well

id rather trust society because fear/understanding of the law, ethics and empathy rather then a mutual fear of one another and thinking - no crazy sob will mess with me I HAS GUN
 
radnan said:
also i'm sure the rate of suicides and random killing would get way lower if the means to kill yourself and others would be a bit more painful and complicated.
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Yeah, I'm sure someone is going to go out of their way and buy a gun, with all the background checks and waiting periods, just to KILL THEMSELF when there's knives, razors, chemicals and all sorts of deadly things that are far easier to get a hold of.



i'm almost ok with people owning guns if they undertake psychological tests on par with those of the police force ... because you are trustin a fellow citizen with your life ... not just his and you wanna be sure he's not having any .. issues.
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NO, never ever ever ever ever ever do I want to see this happen. Because when you get into this level of government involvement, they can just step in and make up whatever rules they want regarding just who is deemed "mentally healthy". Maybe they don't like your political affiliation, maybe they don't like your religion, maybe they don't like the fact that you are allowed to have a gun AT ALL.
 
The "slippery slope" argument is meritless. Judge an argument on its own merits, not on some ridiculous fantasy extrapolation over five hundred years.


For example:
I believe that if we let the government regulate who can and can't drive, then one day they'll be regulating who can and can't be born! What if they start forcing niggers and jews and chinks to have abortions, because all politicians are a bunch of crazy racists?! ZOMGZOMGZOMGZOMG

Or, you could say that because a car is two tons of steel, capable of traveling at speeds up to 200 mph, it's a good idea to regulate who can and cannot operate them.
 
radnan said:
Cars have a primary purpose : transportation
Guns also have a primary purpose : killing people
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o rly?

i dont know about you guys, but in europe, nearly all guns are actually meant for a lot of things, except killing people...

how the fuck is the gun's primary purpose for a recreative or competition shooter "killing people"? for fucks sake...
that's like saying the car of a race pilot is meant to drive to fucking work.

that's such ignorant bullshit. sure, you could use it for that, but it surely isn't the primary objective, now is it?
radnan said:
also i'm sure the rate of suicides and random killing would get way lower if the means to kill yourself and others would be a bit more painful and complicated. sure he can go on a killing spree with a knife but lets see how far he gets compared to when he has a gun.
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comes down to the morality of suicide. i personally don't think suicide should even enter the debate of gun control... guns are faster and most often painless sure, but if you make the choice, there are plenty of other painless ways.

as for killing sprees: once again, LEGAL owned guns are very rarely used in those situations... and even then, if you put the numbers of deaths by firearms (murder, accidental discharge, etc), next to other deaths (traffic, smoking, drinking, whatnot), you'll see it's quite besides the question.

where is your moral outrage then?

you dont like people suiciding with a gun, but you're fine that they smoke and drink themselves to death, while society picks up the bill for their medical care and whatnot?

really, be fucking consequential, it's retarded to single out sport shooters...
radnan said:
i'm almost ok with people owning guns if they undertake psychological tests on par with those of the police force ... because you are trustin a fellow citizen with your life ... not just his and you wanna be sure he's not having any .. issues.
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to own a gun i have to:
- pass a written test (one each per type of gun: handgun, bolt action or lever action rifle and autoloading rifle)
- pass a handling test (one each per type of gun: handgun, bolt action or lever action rifle and autoloading rifle)
- pass police screening (if i took a piss in public and the cops saw it and wrote me a ticket, i'd loose my right to own guns, lol)
- have my neighbours, my family and any other potential people who live in the same house as me interrogated by the police, to make sure i'm mentally stable and not easy to anger...

is that enough for you? fuck...

not to mention i have to re-license my guns seperately every 5 years... each time, it's possible that they retract my license if i get picked up in some manifestation or somesuch nonsense. or take a drunken piss in the woods next to a service road.

isn't that a wee bit overboard?
 
Actually SUA- I like the fact that you have to go through some regulation to own a gun. Hey, we go through restrictions to own a car, so why not a gun.

As for comparing death by firearms to smoking- etc. I think there is a difference between those people who harm themselves through prolonged exposure to behaviors that risk their health vs getting shot.

And yes, while we do have target shooting, I would qualify that guns are made to kill people. Rather, guns are made to cause violence. Target shooting is a sport about who is capable of delivering that ability in a precise and/or rapid way. Whether a person target shoots a .303 or a .50 machine gun, its still a tool meant to deliver violence. How it is, is up to the user.

Finally, as for shooting sprees- I know of no data about whether shooting sprees involve lawful guns or unlawful guns. In Switzerland, I suspect the guns are lawful. As for the nature of gun violence against white middle class americans- again, a lot of that is done by acquaintance or family- and probably legal guns. WHere you have crime related violence- those guns originate from a legal market. That so many guns become "illegal" indicates that more needs to be done to keep guns from getting "stolen" or at least put into criminal hands.




At Johnny - I am glad you have so much faith in the NRA. I don't. You have an organization taking the lead and eliminating competitors for that leadership... that's troublesome. After all, its not the NRA's second amendment, but society's. YOu mix a bit of business and the desire of the organization to perpetuate itself- and you have dangerously mixed motives.

About Suicide- I am not so sure I agree. A person often shoots himself because he feels depressed or dispondent. Given the right counselling, the person might go on to live a healthy and valuable life. That suicides often happen among young people indicates there is a problem. That guns are often used indicates again that there is a problem with access to guns. It seems easier for some depressed folks to get guns rather than counselling. I think that's a problem.
 
I guess we should outlaw Corvettes and M3s as well, since someone might get the bright idea to use one as a getaway car. After all, why are the cars fast anyway? What is auto racing, practice to evade police capture?
 
That's a flawed metaphor. Evading police isn't the intended use for a sports car, track racing or simply for travel, is.

Guns were created as weapons, and still are. That doesn't mean that that is all they can be used for, but, ultimately, it's the intended use.
 
Well, the reasoning is the same, some don't want to see any fast cars, because, *ooooooh* somewun could get hurt and cause twouble. While they don't have any grasp of logic and are unable to see that the cars also serve an entertainment purpose and can be used at the track.
 
Honestly, I am rather glad firearms are meant to be tools of violence. I would hate to think of someone using a Glock 9 to shave. Of course modern nail guns could be used as guns, but they are still made to put in nails.

You target shoot to punch a hole in a target. You hunt to kill an animal, sometimes to eat it, sometimes just to see if you can kill it. Its still violence- but usually (to hunt) you have to get a license to do it. Why? Because its an environmental issue. Many states require fishing licenses and its rather unsporting to use .303 or handgrenades to fish.

Is there less an environmental issue in controlling hunting in city streets?

Oh, and Suaside- I think the anti-gun in being promoted primarily by liberals and feminist causes- because apparently its more likely that men go on rampages and women are victims.
 
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