Gun Control

[SilverStarApple/Epsilon7]

I wasn't saying you are. I was implying hitting people because of opposing viewpoints is dumb.

In that case, we just became best friends, because I feel the same way.

I mean, really, can you believe these guys? First they claim anyone who doesn't love them enough is "Alt-Right", a word they made up to mean "Opinions associated with far-right things like nazism", even though the Nazis were left-wing.

Come on, if their enemies were actually nazis, they'd be able to call them that and be right for once, without needing some made-up new word that means "Nazi-ish".

Then they claim their enemies are "Literally Hitler" so it's ok for them to slash their tires, smash their windows, attack the places they work at, dox them, try to get them fired, openly encourage violence against them, openly commit violence against them, and so much more.

They're lunatics, unstable lunatics. And we're still willing to take their abuse without backing down or sinking to their level. We're still willing to stand up and say no to them, despite how hard they try to shut us down and shut us up and stop us from getting to publically speak out against them. When they show up to our peaceful marches armed with rocks and police batons and grenades and knives, we're still willing to stand our ground and fight for what matters. We're still willing to stand up and say no to their violence, hate, and insanity.

Because we are number one.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

How about you gun nuts start "whacking" each other since you seem to be in disagreement about this issue. Or shooting or whatever.

Cry more kiddo. Contribute to the thread or piss off.

Silverstar there's like a whole different thread now for general political stuff, don't let trogs like Scalper bait you into derailing this one.

Anyway, back on topic: part of me wants to gather up gun control advocates and drop them in some place like a bad neighborhood dominated by MS13 activity and give them a choice: an iPhone or a loaded pistol to get them out of that place.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Yeah, more weapons to fight people with weapons who have no regard for their own life or those of others. What's the worst that could happen? Bust the head of those MS13 open, and you sure won't find happyness in your life, there is a reason why it's called 'Gang viollence'. If it was that easy to solve the issue, the thing might have been fixed already yesterday. You have quite often police units with the equipment of military forces operating in those 'neighborhoods' like when you look at Mexico, Brazil and some other South American countries, doesn't really help that much to fix the situation. The only way to be really secure, is to live in a secure society and not to arm everyone to their teeth. But it is interesting how such places are often brought up as example. Is this the kind of society you really aim and strive for? Where a weapon seems like the only way to protect your self?

The idea that a 'gun' is the ultimate tool to solve social and structural issues is just as laughable like blaming weapons for ALL kinds of viollence and crime.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

Yeah, more weapons to fight people with weapons who have no regard for their own life or those of others. What's the worst that could happen? Bust the head of those MS13 open, and you sure won't find happyness in your life, there is a reason why it's called 'Gang viollence'. If it was that easy to solve the issue, the thing might have been fixed already yesterday. You have quite often police units with the equipment of military forces operating in those 'neighborhoods' like when you look at Mexico, Brazil and some other South American countries, doesn't really help that much to fix the situation. The only way to be really secure, is to live in a secure society and not to arm everyone to their teeth. But it is interesting how such places are often brought up as example. Is this the kind of society you really aim and strive for? Where a weapon seems like the only way to protect your self?

The idea that a 'gun' is the ultimate tool to solve social and structural issues is just as laughable like blaming weapons for ALL kinds of viollence and crime.

I wouldn't suggest it's the ultimate tool (nor did I) but if you found yourself deep in a really bad neighborhood where even the COPS don't like to go, are you going to trust yourself to defend yourself or are you gonna count on a police force that will take precious minutes to get out to where you are? Of course the better solution is to build secure neighborhoods where MS13 can't get a foothold, but kvetching about that when the situation at hand is "oh crap I took a wrong turn and ended up deep in a really bad area" is missing the point.

Something people like to keep bringing up is the old saw of "I don't need a personal defense weapon, there's police to do that". This abdication of personal responsibility for one's own well-being is hideously misguided and leads nowhere pretty. When the chips are down and seconds matter THE POLICE ARE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO ABLE TO SAVE YOUR ASS.

Guns are not the ultimate anything but they are a fantastic force equalizer. Nothing else currently in existence comes close to being able to do that as well as a firearm does, at this point in time. Knives are terrible for this purpose. Non-lethal solutions are variable in their reliability and require training to use effectively just like firearms do.

As a final note: it's pretty safe to assume that there will always be bad people willing to do bad things that victimize other people, sometimes violently. A perfectly peaceful society with zero violent crime is practically pie-in-the-sky shit and simply doesn't apply to most modern, urbanized societies. I don't want a Wild West or a Brazil or Honduras or South Africa, but I'm not going to count on ever seeing a peaceful utopia either.

 

[Crni Vuk]

The last thing you would want to do in such a neighbourhood is to be noticed. And waving a gun around at someone is the fastest way to get in the line of the gang viollence. Even if you would succeed to defend your self, who's going to ensure that you will have the same success with the friends of your attacker? You said it by your self, it's an area where not even the cops dare to step in which means it's controlled by thugs, criminals and gangs, the lack of working institutions is increasing the likeliness of retributions by criminals. If it was that easy to deal with it by just 'scaring' them away, everyone would be armed. I have no doubt that a gun can be a good way to defend your self in certain situations, but I doubt it's the correct way to deal with such areas. Guns are not an equilizier in such cases, they actually can even make the situation worse. Not to mention that you also need some proficiency in the correct use of weapons, way to many people out there believe that all it takes is a gun in your hand you're suddenly John Wayne or Rambo.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

The last thing you would want to do in such a neighbourhood is to be noticed.

Trust me, by BEING there you already are noticed. This is something that has happened to me before. They KNOW you don't belong there, pretty much right away. They know by your clothes, they know by the way you look at street signs, they know by the speed at which you walk. The important thing in those situations is not to look like a fucking mark.

And waving a gun around at someone is the fastest way to get in the line of the gang viollence. Even if you would succeed to defend your self, who's going to ensure that you will have the same success with the friends of your attacker?

I'm not suggesting you go picking a fight where there isn't one (situational awareness is key) but if it becomes clear that you're not going to get out of the situation without a potentially deadly confrontation, are you really going to roll the dice without at least putting the odds a little more in your favor?

You said it by your self, it's an area where not even the cops dare to step in which means it's controlled by thugs, criminals and gangs, the lack of working institutions is increasing the likeliness of retributions by criminals. If it was that easy to deal with it by just 'scaring' them away, everyone would be armed.

This seems like a gross oversimplification and excuse-making. Maybe if the Maras or Peckerwoods or Bloods had to worry about John Q. Public offering credible resistance every time they pushed they wouldn't have a stranglehold in the first place. Maybe if the folks there put their heads together and formed a Neighborhood Watch and cooperated fully with police (this last part is such a huge problem - it's basically a Prisoner's Dilemma). Etc. But this isn't about a person who RESIDES in the affected neighborhood, remember - it's about someone who stumbles into that neighborhood and wants to get out with all their limbs attached.

I have no doubt that a gun can be a good way to defend your self in certain situations, but I doubt it's the correct way to deal with such areas. Guns are not an equilizier in such cases, they actually can even make the situation worse. Not to mention that you also need some proficiency in the correct use of weapons, way to many people out there believe that all it takes is a gun in your hand you're suddenly John Wayne or Rambo.

Of course you need to train with your gun in order for it to matter. I never implied anything different. I encourage any and all gun owners to do just that. As for escalation, knowing when to escalate and when not to is something else you learn. And as for "the correct way to deal with such areas" - the correct way to deal with such areas is to not put yourself into those areas in the first place, but people aren't perfect, they make mistakes. There are going to be stupid gun owners that do stupid shit just like there are stupid drivers that do stupid shit. We don't go around confiscating people's cars because of joyriding teenagers and drunk drivers. We shouldn't go around demanding people's guns because of criminals and mallninjas.

 

[SilverStarApple/Epsilon7]

The US doesn't really have any major marxist political voices, given that their "left wing" party the Democrats are basically just mild conservatives.

Throwback Thursday

 

[Hassknecht]

And where is the actual Marxism? Where are the actual Marxist parties in the US?
It's like "Nazi" or "Fascist", throwing around "Marxist" so much as a derogatory description just takes away all the meaning.

 

[SilverStarApple/Epsilon7]

Yeah, more weapons to fight people with weapons who have no regard for their own life or those of others. What's the worst that could happen? Bust the head of those MS13 open, and you sure won't find happyness in your life, there is a reason why it's called 'Gang viollence

Are you... Are you alright? Are you implying that if we, or the cops, or the military dealt with the violent rapey drug gangs, we'd become the new violent rapey drug gangs, because "Violence is Violence?"

Because I'm finding it hard to make sense of what you're saying here. Are you saying we should just let these criminal gangs run freely, because giving them the death penalty would feel morally icky? Or are you saying it's inherently wrong to be able to defend yourself from Outlaws? Are you suggesting they'd win any armed fight they were involved in, because they've "Had more experience" with being animalistic killers? What the hell kind of justification for gun-grabbing is that?

I kinda like being able to defend myself from Outlaws, thank you very much. I'm sure the dead gay people in Pulse, that gay nightclub some Muslim shot up over in Ohio, wish they could defend themselves from Outlaws, too. Shame the liberal gunshaming and "Gay people don't need guns, the world I hate needs to be more tolerant!" culture convinced them being armed was lame, eh?

And where is the actual Marxism? Where are the actual Marxist parties in the US?
It's like "Nazi" or "Fascist", throwing around "Marxist" so much as a derogatory description just takes away all the meaning.

False Equivalency.

"You're a Nazi Facist Literal Hitler!" is shit liberals shout at dissenters. Meanwhile, those same liberals will often proudly own Che Guevara posters, burn american flags, learn in schools and colleges that the west is an evil sexist cultureless imperialistic hellhole that must be destroyed and replaced with a communist state, advocate for socialist healthcare reforms that punish everyone for existing so the state can afford to give free tummy-tucks to never-gonna-workers, and proudly admit their love for marxist/socialist/communist/call-it-what-you-like politicians.

Thank you for recognizing that Marxist is a bad word now. I hope you can understand why.

 

[Jogre]

learn in schools and colleges that the west is an evil sexist cultureless imperialistic hellhole that must be destroyed and replaced with a communist state

Lol, you actually believe stuff like that is happening.

so the state can afford to give free tummy-tucks to never-gonna-workers

Funny way to spell "Give major treatment that may majorly affect someone's quality of life, without them having to constantly worry about repaying ridiculous hospital bills"

 

[MutantScalper]

Cry more kiddo. Contribute to the thread or piss off.

Have already contributed a lot more than you Mr/Mrs One Issue Troll Noob.

Not much good content in this thread lately, just some weird left vs. right - B.S. The gun laws -issue is more a US vs. the rest of the world -issue rather than left vs. right.

 

[Hassknecht]

False Equivalency.

"You're a Nazi Facist Literal Hitler!" is shit liberals shout at dissenters. Meanwhile, those same liberals will often proudly own Che Guevara posters, burn american flags, learn in schools and colleges that the west is an evil sexist cultureless imperialistic hellhole that must be destroyed and replaced with a communist state, advocate for socialist healthcare reforms that punish everyone for existing so the state can afford to give free tummy-tucks to never-gonna-workers, and proudly admit their love for marxist/socialist/communist/call-it-what-you-like politicians.

Thank you for recognizing that Marxist is a bad word now. I hope you can understand why.

What false equivalency? Just like the evil lurrals don't know what Fascism and National Socialism actually are, your side doesn't actually know what Marxism is. It's just a buzzword now.
Do you actually know what Marxism is? Communism? Socialism, Social Democracy, Leninism, Stalinism, Trotskism, Maoism, and so on?

/edit: Ah, but this is gun control thread. Let's bring this over to the /pol/shit corner.

 

[TheGM]

The gun laws -issue is more a US vs. the rest of the world -issue rather than left vs. right.

I don't see how considering the rest of the world has no bearing on US gun laws.

 

[DarkCorp]

Considering what I have seen on this site so far, Europe matters because if we Americans aren't imitating the Euros, we are just stupid and uncivilized.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Trust me, by BEING there you already are noticed. This is something that has happened to me before. They KNOW you don't belong there, pretty much right away. They know by your clothes, they know by the way you look at street signs, they know by the speed at which you walk. The important thing in those situations is not to look like a fucking mark.

I thought we're talking about people living in those places. I mean if you have grown up in the favela of Rio then you do kinda 'belong' to it, which means you're most probably poor as fuck, know the gangs and that you shouldn't mess with them. I am not an expert here, I just don't see how guns are going to make you more secure in such cases or improving your live in any meaningfull way.

I'm not suggesting you go picking a fight where there isn't one (situational awareness is key) but if it becomes clear that you're not going to get out of the situation without a potentially deadly confrontation, are you really going to roll the dice without at least putting the odds a little more in your favor?

Which of course is very easy to decide when you get in a real emergency, things happen usually very fast and you don't have much room to make clear decisions. But I wasn't talking about picking a fight, just a situation of self defence where it happend that you shoot a gang member because he wannted to mug you, you mentioned MS13, they are not known for beeing easily scared. It could very well happen that you're now fighting the whole gang who are out there looking for revenge.

This seems like a gross oversimplification and excuse-making. Maybe if the Maras or Peckerwoods or Bloods had to worry about John Q. Public offering credible resistance every time they pushed they wouldn't have a stranglehold in the first place. Maybe if the folks there put their heads together and formed a Neighborhood Watch and cooperated fully with police (this last part is such a huge problem - it's basically a Prisoner's Dilemma). Etc. But this isn't about a person who RESIDES in the affected neighborhood, remember - it's about someone who stumbles into that neighborhood and wants to get out with all their limbs attached.

You also assume that armed civilians would be up to the task of fighting gang crime - or any crime in general. This might be true give everyone a weapon and crime will drop, I don't know it, but when I am thinking about the average civilian out there, I have serious doubts about it. Even battle hardened veterans and cops with years of experience under their belt, make mistakes, get sometimes in panick etc. The average person out there is neither physically nor mentaly up to the task in my opinion. Hell just look at the number of police officers that wrongfully shoot someone, because they thought it was a criminal or because they feared for their live panicking and shooting the person, and police officers are supposed to be trained for such cases. It seems much more likely to me, people would be even more panicking than they already do showing even more paranoia, because now they would have to assume that EVERYONE was armed.

You might actually just end up not only with gang viollence, but a situation where gangs fight with the 'neighborhood watch' in the streets, which is how some gang wars actually started where some people saw the need to defend them selfs. We're talking mostly about social and economic issues here so any solution to the problem has to start there, improving the infrastructure, creating job oportunities, better education, less corrupt intstitutions and so on. Why is Switzerland such a gun paradise with low crime (compard to the US)? because they have very great social institutions and a high standard of living.

I believe anyway that we have to radically change our stance on crime and violence in general. Harder punishment and more force by the police seem not to achieve the desired results and can make the situation even worse - see the War on Drugs. If you're looking at places like Compton or Ferguson the police is often see as enemy and there is a huge distrust between the civilian population and police officers who fear for their own lives each time they set foot in those areas. Maybe it's time for a different approach. Like giving people actually money:

This Once Dangerous California City Gives Young Men Money, All-Expense-Paid Trips in Exchange for Not Shooting

http://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/gun-control.206541/page-103#post-4288403

I am not saying it will fix ALL issues or that it's a perfect solution, but there is more and more resarch and experiments pilling up which tell us that we actually can indeed fight poverty, crimes etc. by just giving people money. And it might even be cheaper as well compared to what has been done so far.

A village in Kenya is quietly disproving the biggest myth about basic income

https://www.businessinsider.de/keny...est-myth-about-basic-income-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

Of course you need to train with your gun in order for it to matter. I never implied anything different. I encourage any and all gun owners to do just that. As for escalation, knowing when to escalate and when not to is something else you learn. And as for "the correct way to deal with such areas" - the correct way to deal with such areas is to not put yourself into those areas in the first place, but people aren't perfect, they make mistakes. There are going to be stupid gun owners that do stupid shit just like there are stupid drivers that do stupid shit. We don't go around confiscating people's cars because of joyriding teenagers and drunk drivers. We shouldn't go around demanding people's guns because of criminals and mallninjas.

Unless you make it a requirement you will have a lot of untrained people I am afraid. As I said, look even at TRAINED personel, like police officers and soldiers, and they make still plenty of mistakes. And while you're right, we don't confiscate cars, society has some very tight rules and regulations around cars. I would actually support it a lot if weapons would be treated like cars in the United States, where you're required to have a licence, proper training and driving experience before you can own and drive a car, with traffic laws people have to knwo and follow, where you could loose your licence and car if you're drunk, or mentaly ill etc.

In all honesty I think you're actually right! Treating weapons like cars would be a huge improvement for the nation.

 

[TorontoReign]

Here in the South we are born and bred to know how to properly use firearms, but as you say, morons gonna moron. Cops have no trigger discipline partly I think because they are easy targets, driving around in shitty unarmored cop cars where EVERYONE hates them. From my military mindset soldiers do have more trigger discipline perhaps due to being slightly better equipped on the regular and more easily get a court martial if they screw up. Cops have to call in special units for such things, the DOJ is on their side...Just rambling but the gun issue could be solved if guns were not glorified, but also not demonized as the Left has. Train everyone to use the weapons and they lose their danger partly.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

Have already contributed a lot more than you Mr/Mrs One Issue Troll Noob.

Not much good content in this thread lately, just some weird left vs. right - B.S. The gun laws -issue is more a US vs. the rest of the world -issue rather than left vs. right.

You bore me, Scalper. Welcome to my ignore list.

As for treating guns like cars - I don't see how that would actually do any good, given how a lot of licensed drivers who supposedly passed driving tests behave on the road. (Ever been to Atlanta?) Also, those driver's licenses are about as effective at stopping unlicensed use of automobiles as wet tissue paper (a number of accidents are caused by people driving with suspended or revoked licenses). Finally, driving a car isn't an enumerated right. Bearing arms is.

Also, fun fact about the police - a lot of them don't practice with their firearms nearly as much as private owners do, and are actually nowhere near as safe with their weapons as a number of civvies are.

Also also, I agree that guns shouldn't be glorified. We don't glorify pruning shears or socket wrenches or any other tool. This glorification (and mystification as well) is something we can thank dumbfucks in Hollywood for (in part anyway). I'm not saying every movie with guns is a terrible thing but some of them have put out some really irresponsible shit that has done a disservice to sane gun owners. Regarding training - I think we should actually inculcate healthy respect for firearms from young ages. Basic firearm safety should be a common elementary school thing (stuff like "if you find a gun, tell an adult first and foremost" and so on). I was fortunate enough to be introduced to basic firearms safety in Cub/Boy Scouts and later 4H Shooting Sports programs and quickly understood that they were not toys, no matter how fun range time was.

 

[SilverStarApple/Epsilon7]

You also assume that armed civilians would be up to the task of fighting gang crime - or any crime in general

You just... This isn't... Are we on the same page? We don't seem to be on the same page here.

We aren't suggesting we form a civilian militia of angry grandmas and librarians with revolvers to take the place of the cops, genius! We're saying that angry grandma and that librarian will be less likely to be raped by criminal thugs if they have guns in their pockets. Stop trying to muddy the issue, the Liberal quest of "Common Sense Gun Control" is to disarm the common man and woman out of spite for the common man. That's what you have to answer for if you want to defend the left, and you can't weasel out of it by saying "Civilians with guns can't fight armed crime or any criminals ever so let's not put up a fight or keep the right to defend ourselves from anyone".

 

[Crni Vuk]

Also also, I agree that guns shouldn't be glorified. We don't glorify pruning shears or socket wrenches or any other tool. This glorification (and mystification as well) is something we can thank dumbfucks in Hollywood for (in part anyway). I'm not saying every movie with guns is a terrible thing but some of them have put out some really irresponsible shit that has done a disservice to sane gun owners. Regarding training - I think we should actually inculcate healthy respect for firearms from young ages. Basic firearm safety should be a common elementary school thing (stuff like "if you find a gun, tell an adult first and foremost" and so on). I was fortunate enough to be introduced to basic firearms safety in Cub/Boy Scouts and later 4H Shooting Sports programs and quickly understood that they were not toys, no matter how fun range time was.

This would be a huge improvement, if you ask me everyone who wants to own a fire arm should actually have to do some mandatory training with his weapons I also think that local gun clubs and shooting ranges should be a lot more supported, the more gun owners become a part of some community the easier is it to spot the individuals with severe issues, to speak so. But I doubt it would happen any time soon since any kind of regulation and restriction would be immediately attacked by lobbyists and gun fanatics. They might be very small and not stand for the gun community as a whole, but they are very well conected and very vocal.

No to mention that any kind of gun regulation no matter how well done it is (which I do support though!) can only be a start, considering how severe the situation is economically or when you look how mental issues are dealt with in the United States.

You just... This isn't... Are we on the same page? We don't seem to be on the same page here.

We aren't suggesting we form a civilian militia of angry grandmas and librarians with revolvers to take the place of the cops, genius! We're saying that angry grandma and that librarian will be less likely to be raped by criminal thugs if they have guns in their pockets. Stop trying to muddy the issue, the Liberal quest of "Common Sense Gun Control" is to disarm the common man and woman out of spite for the common man. That's what you have to answer for if you want to defend the left, and you can't weasel out of it by saying "Civilians with guns can't fight armed crime or any criminals ever so let's not put up a fight or keep the right to defend ourselves from anyone".

 

[TorontoReign]

You bore me, Scalper. Welcome to my ignore list.

As for treating guns like cars - I don't see how that would actually do any good, given how a lot of licensed drivers who supposedly passed driving tests behave on the road. (Ever been to Atlanta?) Also, those driver's licenses are about as effective at stopping unlicensed use of automobiles as wet tissue paper (a number of accidents are caused by people driving with suspended or revoked licenses). Finally, driving a car isn't an enumerated right. Bearing arms is.

Also, fun fact about the police - a lot of them don't practice with their firearms nearly as much as private owners do, and are actually nowhere near as safe with their weapons as a number of civvies are.

Also also, I agree that guns shouldn't be glorified. We don't glorify pruning shears or socket wrenches or any other tool. This glorification (and mystification as well) is something we can thank dumbfucks in Hollywood for (in part anyway). I'm not saying every movie with guns is a terrible thing but some of them have put out some really irresponsible shit that has done a disservice to sane gun owners. Regarding training - I think we should actually inculcate healthy respect for firearms from young ages. Basic firearm safety should be a common elementary school thing (stuff like "if you find a gun, tell an adult first and foremost" and so on). I was fortunate enough to be introduced to basic firearms safety in Cub/Boy Scouts and later 4H Shooting Sports programs and quickly understood that they were not toys, no matter how fun range time was.

Commie fears has put a stop to that. If more people knew how devastating these shotguns are
they would want to ban them too.

Take three or four guys with a couple of those and some pistols and some pyrotechnics and you don't need a fucking rifle. You are gunning people down at 50 meters. Rifles are not good for up close like most of these shootings. None of them ever have full auto. Boy oh boy. You wanna ban large mags? Ok, then we will do what we did:

Wanna ban those mags? Ok, we will go to 10. I can still fuck you up with 20 bullets. These fucks shouldn't have time to reload when they shoot up schools, much less night clubs in populated parts of cities. Las Vegas Casino? We have satellites in space and drones but that guy killed how many people? I advocate a new weapon system that works like the Gun Turrets in Dawn of War. Crime in the area? There will be a Turret on every main street in the US.