Gun Control

I can agree with you, but......

So yea, just like you can say it is possible, that gun owners won't do shit to stop an oppressive government.

We pro-guns, can also say that gun ownership is a very real deterrent to government over reach.
 
It can be, but I doubt that it really gives anyone a huge head ache as I am talking about very subtle transitions here and not about sudden changes. Take the recent pick for the Supreme Court for example, who might shape the kind of rules and decisions that will happen for a whole generation, an ultra conservative religious judge could return the court to a narrow conservative majority. Or the incredible increase of surveilance in recent years, not only by certain government agencies but also corporations who have a vast influence in politics.

So I am really not sure how much influence the number of weapon owners have on any administration by just owning guns, it seems they achieve a hell lot more by money and lobbying ...
 
Crni Vuk said:
I will say it again, any ethical or moral standard we have in our society can be undone hence why we have to be carefull after all. The point is, the United States as unlikely as it might seem could go down like the Weimar Republic, if the majority is aparthic about it or even approves of it. My point was, that any right, regardless which one is a privilige granted to the people and any privilige can be taken away unless you have people willing to stand up to defend them.
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Is this not what some of us have been doing in this thread?????? I mean you are on the whole take the privilege/right away side of things in this thread hahahaha. So from posting this and for 108 pages arguing for stricter controls/removal of rights you are actually hoping on the whole fall into dictatorship you are warning us about. The irony is heavy here.
 
First, I never said "Removing" rights second and I never talked about taking any weapons away. I am just arguing that you have to change your stance on gun culture, how to achieve that? That's a tough question. I am usually writing half a novell when I say something here, so I am pretty damn sure that you're missrepresenting my position right now.
 
Crni Vuk said:
First, I never said "Removing" rights second and I never talked about taking any weapons away. I am just arguing that you have to change your stance on gun culture, how to achieve that? That's a tough question. I am usually writing half a novell when I say something here, so I am pretty damn sure that you're missrepresenting my position right now.
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Crni when you talk of removing semi-auto's or assault style weapons which I am pretty sure you have said sometime throughout the 50 pages or so I have been part of this argument that is taking away or removing if not a full "right" it is advocating for the removal of part of this "right". The cake meme posted a couple days ago sums it up pretty well. Advocating for removing part of the right is still a slippery slope to more and more and more. "First they came for the insert here and I did nothing, when they came for me there was no one left" kinda thing.
 
GonZo

Oh shit, you know what, the leftists and progressives have been using that specific meme recently to push their open border agenda. Funny how it is always good for me but bad for you deal.
 
Gun control is the idea that a mother of three living in the projects should have to use Kung Fu to fight off her would-be rapists. Think of the children.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-assault-weapons-guns-registered-20180717-story.html

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nce-see-where-your-state-stacks-up/359395002/

5. Oklahoma
  • Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 19.6 per 100,000
  • Total firearm deaths 2016: 766 (suicides: 517, homicides: 238)
  • Violent crime rate: 449.8 per 100,000 (14th highest)
  • Permit required to carry handgun: Yes
  • Poverty rate: 16.3% (9th highest)
Looks like mental health is the issue. People want to die.

Those numbers kinda prove it. The rest is crime in the cities. OKC is a shithole. I won't blame minorities though...we could go over the Race Riots...
 
Pariah Dog said:
>a military branch under the auspices of the US Gov't is a militia to protect yourself against a corrupt government

You... you're joking right?
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Also: See, if you were even remotely interested in a reasonable discussion you could have gone for it right there. "Well, yeah, the National Guard used to be a militia, but they are a government executive force now, so they can't properly fullfill their 2nd Amendment function. It has been this way since 1916".
And that's why I hate so many people.
You pretend to be interested in something, you even feint reason for a while, but you just want stay in your bubble and meme away, virtue signaling away. Fuck everyone. You will now call me a fucking fence sitter soyboy or traitor Nazi or whatever, but you know what? Fuck you. Everyone is scum, and unless you are reasonable you remain scum.
 
Hassknecht said:
Also: See, if you were even remotely interested in a reasonable discussion you could have gone for it right there. "Well, yeah, the National Guard used to be a militia, but they are a government executive force now, so they can't properly fullfill their 2nd Amendment function. It has been this way since 1916".
And that's why I hate so many people.
You pretend to be interested in something, you even feint reason for a while, but you just want stay in your bubble and meme away, virtue signaling away. Fuck everyone. You will now call me a fucking fence sitter soyboy or traitor Nazi or whatever, but you know what? Fuck you. Everyone is scum, and unless you are reasonable you remain scum.
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That is actually exactly where I stand on the issue and the Oath Keepers are part of that line of thinking.
 
DarkCorp said:
GonZo

Oh shit, you know what, the leftists and progressives have been using that specific meme recently to push their open border agenda. Funny how it is always good for me but bad for you deal.
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Have not seen that, got a copy for reference, I am generally curious being Canadian.
 
GonZo_626 said:
Anglemyer said the review is about understanding the risk of owning a gun - just like people should know the risks when buying alcohol or cigarettes.
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I didn't know that alcohol and cigarettes were any good for defending against tyrannical governments.

Hassknecht said:
Everyone is scum, and unless you are reasonable you remain scum.
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I love you too
 
GonZo_626 said:
Crni when you talk of removing semi-auto's or assault style weapons which I am pretty sure you have said sometime throughout the 50 pages or so I have been part of this argument that is taking away or removing if not a full "right" it is advocating for the removal of part of this "right". The cake meme posted a couple days ago sums it up pretty well. Advocating for removing part of the right is still a slippery slope to more and more and more. "First they came for the insert here and I did nothing, when they came for me there was no one left" kinda thing.
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I am not sure, maybe I did? I can't remember though. Today I doubt it would change anything if they would be removed and I changed my stance on it so far that I don't believe banning weapons would be much of a solution, but I don't think I was ever in favour of banning semi-automatic rifles. However, I do believe that some sensible regulations should be made in certain cases. For example, universal background checks to keep firearms out of the hands of dangerous people and safe and secure storage of firearms to prevent access by children or any unauthorized person.

The thing is, to make it short I see guns as a privilige where as most here see them as a right.
 
Crni

The fact that 40 percent of the nation is armed makes any kind of drastic government upheaval very difficult to achieve. We are happy, healthy, got breads and circuses to entertain us. Usually, any kind of fascist/totalitarian regime is going to fuck up said bread and circuses. Then that's when they have to figure out how to deal with 1,260,000 some gun owners who most likely won't be very happy.
 
DarkCorp said:
Crni

The fact that 40 percent of the nation is armed makes any kind of drastic government upheaval very difficult to achieve. We are happy, healthy, got breads and circuses to entertain us. Usually, any kind of fascist/totalitarian regime is going to fuck up said bread and circuses. Then that's when they have to figure out how to deal with 1,260,000 some gun owners who most likely won't be very happy.
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Then according to the statistics most of us will just kill ourselves.

:drunk:
 
DarkCorp said:
Crni

The fact that 40 percent of the nation is armed makes any kind of drastic government upheaval very difficult to achieve. We are happy, healthy, got breads and circuses to entertain us. Usually, any kind of fascist/totalitarian regime is going to fuck up said bread and circuses. Then that's when they have to figure out how to deal with 1,260,000 some gun owners who most likely won't be very happy.
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I don't know if I am honest. When it comes to upholding democratic values I do not trust the majority of people here, particularly when it becomes difficult, like where they ACTUALLY have to sacrifice something by defending it, like beeing shamed or actually fighting for it with their life. I think only a minority are actually in favour of democracy and liberty as they are rather oportunistic than idealistic - they take it as granted, most people I feel see democracy as nothing more but voting for the lesser evil and not as actually discussing a topic and making informed decisions. Being idealistic is pretty difficult anyway, it requires time and energy and who got time for that these days? Honestly, I think in most countries today, people would actually support authoritarian governments, as long as those promise them stability and prosperty and don't become right away Stalinist or Hitler-Regimes. And I think that's true for most democracies today. It seems to me like a lot of people today want a much more 'though' leader or government on the top making fast decisions. But that's just a gut feeling.
 
Crni Vuk said:
I am not sure, maybe I did? I can't remember though. Today I doubt it would change anything if they would be removed and I changed my stance on it so far that I don't believe banning weapons would be much of a solution, but I don't think I was ever in favour of banning semi-automatic rifles. However, I do believe that some sensible regulations should be made in certain cases. For example, universal background checks to keep firearms out of the hands of dangerous people and safe and secure storage of firearms to prevent access by children or any unauthorized person.

The thing is, to make it short I see guns as a privilige where as most here see them as a right.
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And this is an acceptable level to most, and also completely against what almost all gun control advocates are calling for. They also misrepresent facts they don't understand, applying their own filter to the information. You end up with fully semi-automatic baby killing ak-15's with the way you have been representing what you would call good sensible laws. You keep harping on the whole you cant fight drones with AR-15's and pulling into that argument.

If you talked with a good portion of firearms rights advocates they would not argue those two things. Having a set of laws universal across the whole country would help, but would mean a good portion of California's stupid laws would disappear I mean even as a Canadian I am happy to not live in California.

Crni Vuk said:
I don't know if I am honest. When it comes to upholding democratic values I do not trust the majority of people here, particularly when it becomes difficult, like where they ACTUALLY have to sacrifice something by defending it, like beeing shamed or actually fighting for it with their life. I think only a minority are actually in favour of democracy and liberty as they are rather oportunistic than idealistic - they take it as granted, most people I feel see democracy as nothing more but voting for the lesser evil and not as actually discussing a topic and making informed decisions. Being idealistic is pretty difficult anyway, it requires time and energy and who got time for that these days? Honestly, I think in most countries today, people would actually support authoritarian governments, as long as those promise them stability and prosperty and don't become right away Stalinist or Hitler-Regimes. And I think that's true for most democracies today. It seems to me like a lot of people today want a much more 'though' leader or government on the top making fast decisions. But that's just a gut feeling.
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I think you are mixing things up here. Democracy and Liberty do not necessarily go hand in hand. Just look at the Japanese argument in America in WW2 you made. A democracy can still be authoritarian is right and some of the left and right are both headed there by not at least trying to understand each others side. ​
 
DarkCorp said:
Crni

The fact that 40 percent of the nation is armed makes any kind of drastic government upheaval very difficult to achieve. We are happy, healthy, got breads and circuses to entertain us. Usually, any kind of fascist/totalitarian regime is going to fuck up said bread and circuses. Then that's when they have to figure out how to deal with 1,260,000 some gun owners who most likely won't be very happy.
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Actually, it's the opposite. A fascist/totalitarian regime will usually try and increase the bread and circuses by all means necessary. I mean, where do you think the phrase comes from?
 
GonZo_626 said:
And this is an acceptable level to most, and also completely against what almost all
I think you are mixing things up here. Democracy and Liberty do not necessarily go hand in hand. Just look at the Japanese argument in America in WW2 you made. A democracy can still be authoritarian is right and some of the left and right are both headed there by not at least trying to understand each others side. ​
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I never said they liberty and democracy are one and the same. I do agree with you, democracy and authoritarianism can go hand in hand, there are enough examples of that.

However I do not agree that there is an equivalence between the political left and right. If we look at the core of the right and left, the left will almost always loose in a direct confrontation since the right is simply better at using viollence for their advantage. I am not calling leftists pacifistc by nature, but most leftists are not the type of people that will arm them self, there are much more armed right-wing/conservative groups out there, it's even an ongoing meme on the right that if it comes to some kind of 'war' here, the left is going to loose:

the-left-we-want-civil-war-the-right-thats-cute-23548063.png


So I am honestly not sure where this paranoia about the left always comes from and the need to compare them to the right while also mocking them at the same time for their incompetence. I am NOT(!) saying there isn't some seriously disturbing lunacy on the left or extreme left particularly on universities, who deserve it to be shuned and exposed. But people crying for their safe spaces and yelling at Trump or smashing windows of Star Bucks in, are not the same as Neo-Nazis and KKKers in my opinion. There is no real equivalency here.

The political left has almost no power in the US where as quite a few right wingers can be found in the government right now.
 
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