Gun Control

My point is not that laws don't work, they obviously do, but that they won't work in the US due to its history. The european laws work because here we have had established countries more or less for a thousand years, while the US was a frontier. This mentality carries on, you can't compare it to Europe.
Introduce strictest gun laws into the US and it won't really do much except lead to civil war.
 
MutantScalper said:
Has this actually been scientifically proven like, anywhere? Are there other regions on the planet where certain laws just won't work because of 'history'?
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It's nothing you can scientifically prove or test because it's a rather unique case. It's mostly logical, though. Criminals in the US are already not really allowed to buy firearms. Yet they can get them easily, because of a huge black market. That black market will not go away if you heavily restrict firearms for civilians, it will even grow. The US has too many guns in circulation, they won't suddenly disappear. It's also against the law to murder and mug and rape and whatnot people, and yet people do it.
Restrictive gun laws will, first and foremost, make it harder for law-abiding citizens to get a gun, because criminals are, well, criminals, and can get them illegally. In Europe this isn't that easy, because the black market isn't as pronounced since historically, there have never been many guns in circulation to begin with. The US is different, and that has to be taken into account.
 
320,000,000 Americans in the U.S. We have roughly 32-43 percent gun ownership, let that sink in for a moment. We are awash in a sea of guns already, any kind of ban would be completely pointless.

But you scream, AUSSIES DID IT!!!!

24 Million and maybe a FRACTION of that in gun owners.

POPULATION influences policy.

P.S>

And I second Hass statement.

Culture is indeed, IMPORTANT. Your standard european probably could care less about owning a gun cause they simply do not give a shit. It isn't like that over here. I think its another case of, 'If us awesome Euros can do it, you can do it too". Very arrogant.
 
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Hassknecht said:
It's nothing you can scientifically prove or test because it's a rather unique case. It's mostly logical, though. Criminals in the US are already not really allowed to buy firearms. Yet they can get them easily, because of a huge black market. That black market will not go away if you heavily restrict firearms for civilians, it will even grow. The US has too many guns in circulation, they won't suddenly disappear. It's also against the law to murder and mug and rape and whatnot people, and yet people do it.
Restrictive gun laws will, first and foremost, make it harder for law-abiding citizens to get a gun, because criminals are, well, criminals, and can get them illegally. In Europe this isn't that easy, because the black market isn't as pronounced since historically, there have never been many guns in circulation to begin with. The US is different, and that has to be taken into account.
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Where do the guns in the US black market come from? Oh yea that's right they come from gun shops and gun factories. And also stolen from civilian owners who had guns 'legally'. Guns are even stolen from the US police, US military, etc. where ever they are in US. It's possible to make guns from scratch but it's easier to just steal them in USA. In Europe guns are much more difficult to steal. Having said that, theres a lot more guns in circulation in Europe than you might think. Every now and then they make gun busts like the one below that just stagger the mind.

https://www.europol.europa.eu/newsr...ot-seized-during-operation-portu-now-revealed

With a less strict legislation I wonder what all that hardware could have caused in Europe, eh? 10 k assault rifles? One company needs about 100 assault rifles, so 10 k is about enough for 100 companies, plus all the other stuff. But I'm sure you as someone who has been to Bundeswehr know exactly what kind of military force that is.

Also, guns are not magical items like in computer games that just keep working. An average crook might not be able to clean and maintain a, say, a hand gun which renders it useless when it becomes clogged with dirt or rust or something. Also a lot of guns are also disposed of by said criminals after being used in a crime, thrown into rivers etc. rendering them useless. So the number of guns in the black market is also reducing.

If you use that logic ("there are murders/rapes/etc. so why have any laws") then I don't consider it very good thinking at all. Yes, why have any laws? Because they mostly do work.
 
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MutantScalper said:
An average crook might not be able to clean and maintain a, say, a hand gun which renders it useless when it becomes clogged with dirt or rust or something.
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It is such a conundrum, you want him to stop posting because everything he writes is fucking retarded yet you can't help to not look at it because it is that fucking retarded.
 
Man, guns aren't like they are in the movies and neither do crooks act like crooks in the movies.

Guns are not cheap, double if they are black market with no serial. If anything, these weapons would get re-used,re-sold, etc, passed around so they do not stay in one location or area.
 
TheGM said:
shocked_david_bowie.gif

It is such a conundrum, you want him to stop posting because everything he writes is fucking retarded yet you can't help to not look at it because it is that fucking retarded.
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DarkCorp said:
Man, guns aren't like they are in the movies and neither do crooks act like crooks in the movies.

Guns are not cheap, double if they are black market with no serial. If anything, these weapons would get re-used,re-sold, etc, passed around so they do not stay in one location or area.
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You guys have like, proof of that? An AK would stay operational for decades even but that's not true of most other weapons.
 
Exactly, the guns in circulation in the US come from factories and stores. But that's the thing, they are in circulation now. If you want to get rid of them you'd need to establish absolutely totalitarian measures, and criminalize a huge part of the populace. Which would rather likely turn into the legal guns being used in their original intention, defending citizens from a tyrannical government.
Also, the average crook can't maintain a weapon? How do all those gangs manage to keep their guns in working order for all the drive-bys and stuff, then? Gun maintenance doesn't exactly require genius. Field stripping your average handgun takes less than a minute and cleaning out dirt isn't exactly a task that requires a doctorate. If a gun breaks down, it will get replaced by one of the other thousands of guns in circulation, and the broken one will at some point end up with someone who can repair it.
 
Hassknecht said:
Exactly, the guns in circulation in the US come from factories and stores. But that's the thing, they are in circulation now. If you want to get rid of them you'd need to establish absolutely totalitarian measures, and criminalize a huge part of the populace.
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You mean like in UK, Australia and the rest of the world? How nice of you to think about the feelings of illegal gun owners in USA.

Hassknecht said:
Which would rather likely turn into the legal guns being used in their original intention, defending citizens from a tyrannical government.
Also, the average crook can't maintain a weapon? How do all those gangs manage to keep their guns in working order for all the drive-bys and stuff, then? Gun maintenance doesn't exactly require genius. Field stripping your average handgun takes less than a minute and cleaning out dirt isn't exactly a task that requires a doctorate. If a gun breaks down, it will get replaced by one of the other thousands of guns in circulation, and the broken one will at some point end up with someone who can repair it.
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Now you're just buying into the nutcase rhetoric from the NRA ("tyrannical government"). "Original intention"? You mean like in the 'second amendment' and stuff? Instead of myth and legends, maybe time the yanks start to go by rules of democracy, eh?

http://time.com/5167216/americans-gun-control-support-poll-2018/
A week after the U.S. was rocked by its deadliest school shooting in five years, support for stricter gun control laws is at an all-time high among American voters, according to a Quinnipiac University poll.

Those in favor of stricter gun legislation outnumber those opposed by a measure of more than two-to-one, according to the poll.
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Gun maintenance requires a surprisingly large amount of knowledge. How many guns have you taken part into 'atoms'? Which ones? How easy was it? How easy was it to put it back together? You think every criminal has training as a gun smith?

Hass, how about you post a video of you "field stripping" a standard revolver, cleaning and maintaining it in one minute?
 
The rest of the world never had as many guns in circulation like the US. We're going in circles here.
Criminalizing law-abiding citizens and establishing draconian measures to dearm the populace is not to be considered rather tyrannical? Thing is, if you want to get rid of guns in the US you need to do it by force. The federal government would have to enforce a unified law over all states, and that doesn't sit well with the US populace.
The history of the USA is markedly different from the UK, or Germany. Again, the USA were a frontier and people had to fend for themselves. Then they had to fight for their independence, and this mindset still continues to this day. The myth of the armed populace being important for that might just be a myth, but it is there, and the belief in it is strong. In Europe, people were never free. We've had monarchies for the longest time almost everywhere, and monarchs don't like an armed populace most of the time. They have a small amount of loyal guards and soldiers that control the people, and giving the common people the means to rebel much more efficiently is not really a good idea for them.
Australia was kinda different, it was also a frontier in many ways. But its populace was spread much thinner, and since it was never really independent, it also lacks this whole myth of independence, so to them dearming the populace was not that harsh a break in their culture.
You can interprete the Second Amendment in many ways, but the most popular way simply is that every citizen has the right to own firearms. It's a fundamental part of the american culture and can't simply be ignored.
Btw., I'm not necessarily against stricter gun control. I'm against the notion that european-style gun restrictions will have much of a significant impact in the US. School and mass shootings need to be fought in a different way.
 
Cleaning a weapon isn't rocket science either.

You have the internet as a teacher obviously, but besides, a great deal of criminals (not all criminals are stupid thugs), are ex-military or at least, have weapons training, from ex-military members. I am speaking about the Mafia, the Cartels like Los Zetas (whom themselves were started by ex-GAFFE dudes), Triads, etc.
 
MutantScalper said:
That's right they had a lot more.

Pick it up a little Hass, you're getting a little flaky there.
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But not in the hands of civilians, relative to their total populace. The US had, at its founding and later, a very high amount of guns per citizens, something that never really happened to that scale in other countries. Sure, military and police has lots of guns, but those are usually not available to the general populace.
One of the recent mass shooters here in Germany had a pistol that was a theater pistol that he bought over the Darknet, and the pistol was reactivated somewhere in Czech Republic or something like that. The black market is rather scarce around here. In the US it's generally rather easy to buy a handgun, legally or illegally, because there are just so many around.
 
MutantScalper said:
That's right they had a lot more.

Pick it up a little Hass, you're getting a little flaky there.
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Hahaha calling Hass flaky for having a truly greater understanding then your limited mind seems to comprehend on this issue. You seem to think that everyone in the US is exactly like you are in Finland or the EU in general and can't seem to comprehend that due to that vastly different culture the way you would do things would do nothing but cause untold amounts of violence that make current US firearms deaths seem like nothing.
 
MutantScalper said:
You guys have like, proof of that? An AK would stay operational for decades even but that's not true of most other weapons.
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As a Russian you'd think Scalpy here would know about the mythical durability of the AK. You know unless you have the gun submerged in Salt Water for a couple years, the gun should work fine.
 
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This isn't a thread for logic. This is a glorified podium for Scalper to demonstrate his lack of nuance. People could be running around with knives and Scalper would be sleeping because "well they aren't doing it with guns so I have nothing to virtue signal about." He's only interested in skewing the conversation towards the symptoms rather than the social condition that causes them to begin with.
 
DarkCorp said:
Cleaning a weapon isn't rocket science either.

You have the internet as a teacher obviously, but besides, a great deal of criminals (not all criminals are stupid thugs), are ex-military or at least, have weapons training, from ex-military members. I am speaking about the Mafia, the Cartels like Los Zetas (whom themselves were started by ex-GAFFE dudes), Triads, etc.
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Many guns used in crimes are 'saturday night specials', not very durable firearms. Meaning they won't last very long even if maintained well. Also it's not so easy to get guns from the so called black market, if you know how to get them then contact your local cops and let them know.

Hass,

USA isn't the only nation that has had a problem with firearms, look into the history of European and other nations and see how they dealt with it. USA isn't a unique snowflake. Also the logic of "there are already too many illegal guns in circulation in the magical underworld of criminals that we should give up making any laws about guns" is just so incredibly stupid that I'm going to hit you with the Jackie Chan.

image.png




Two feet they come a creepin'
Like a black cat do
And two bodies are layin' naked
A creeper think he got nothin' to lose
So he creeps into this house, yeah
And unlocks the door
And as a man's reaching for his trousers
Shoots him full of thirty-eight holes
Mr. Saturday night special
Got a barrel that's blue and cold
Ain't good for nothin'
But put a man six feet in a hole
Big Jim's been drinkin' whiskey
And playin' poker on a losin' night
And pretty soon ol' Jim starts a thinkin'
Somebody been cheatin' and lyin'
So Big Jim commence to fightin'
I wouldn't tell you no lie
Big Jim done pulled his pistol
Shot his friend right between the eyes
Mr. Saturday night special
Got a barrel that's blue and cold
Ain't good for nothin'
But put a man six feet in a hole
Oh, it's the Saturday night special, for twenty dollars you can buy yourself one too
Hand guns are made for killin'
They ain't no good for nothin' else
And if you like to drink your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself
So why don't we dump 'em people
To the bottom of the sea
Before some ol' fool come around here
Wanna shoot either you or me
Mr. Saturday night special
You got a barrel that's blue and cold
You ain't good for nothin'
But put a man six feet in a hole
Mr. the Saturday night special
And I'd like to tell you what you could do with it
And that's the end of the song
 
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