Gun Control

GonZo_626 said:
Yes but almost every country has a spot or two that is "dangerous" for police officers.
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Yeah, I am just saying that everthing in the US seems to be bigger though.

Like, when I think about Europe and Germany, I live in a rather densily populated area here in Munich, but never had I the feeling that anything here, would resemble Detroit or the poorer parts of LA or Chicago. I do realize, that my perception could be pretty scewed, due to the sensationalist media that loves to sell crazy images and stories and that comparing the entirety of the US with just Germany isn't really fair, there is a lot of hype to say that.
However they had this show here in Germany with police officers coming to visit and follow a German squad and a German one visit the US and they both did notice the difference in how the police is dealing with thinngs in their jobs, simply due to the fact that at least in theory, every citizen in the US could be armed where as in Germany that risk is much lower. They both agreed, it's more stressfull in the states and the preasure for officers is higher.
 
GonZo_626 said:
Hahahaha, I think you are the one who is confused when you make comments like shoot to kill. Ever cop I have ever talked to about training and such (many European, some American, and tonnes of Canadians) are all trained when they use there gun to shoot center of mass as its the easiest target to hit. They never shoot to kill or shoot to wound, they shoot to stop the person. I know one cop who has killed someone (I have never actually asked, but my wife went to school with this guy and he got posted to our home town coincidentally) was extremely messed up and considered it a failure because he had to pull that trigger. Cops either North American or European DO NOT want to shoot people.

Have you even ever been to the US? I have many times and never once thought I was in a war zone like you make it out to be, hell the only firearms I saw were the ones I was shooting at a range.
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Yes I know US cops shoot to kill, Canadian cops too most likely. For example Finnish cops pretty much always shoot to wound and almost always do it succesfully. Other European cops do the same.

Since 2000, seven people have died after being shot by Finnish police.
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Seven.

One small town in USA can have a higher number than that. Total number of people killed by cops in US is in the thousands. The FBI hasn't even been collecting data about the police killings, they are that common and they don't even care about them.
 
To be fair, Finnland has a fraction of the population of the US, so you have to compare per capita.
And of course in the US they will kill to shoot more often since criminals will be more likely to be armed themselves where a shot that doesn't immediately put down the attacker will be a huge danger for the policemen. And as Gonzo said, a shot to center of mass is much, much easier and safer in a hectic situation.
It's a shitty situation for the US. They have so many guns in circulation that the police basically always has to assume that a criminal is armed with a firearm and will thus try to shoot to kill. You have two options here, try and reduce the number of guns in circulation or reduce the incentive to commit crime.
Option 1 requires draconian laws that will affect the law abiding population first and foremost, and which goes against the very core of the american culture.
Option 2 requires a lot of work from everyone to improve society, reduce drug abuse and social inequality. There is no short term solution for any of this, and most long term solutions will also require societal changes that won't sit well with large parts of the population as fixing social inequality will surely lead to cries of COMMUNISM and rejection of any such policies.
 
Hassknecht said:
To be fair, Finnland has a fraction of the population of the US, so you have to compare per capita.
And of course in the US they will kill to shoot more often since criminals will be more likely to be armed themselves where a shot that doesn't immediately put down the attacker will be a huge danger for the policemen. And as Gonzo said, a shot to center of mass is much, much easier and safer in a hectic situation.
It's a shitty situation for the US. They have so many guns in circulation that the police basically always has to assume that a criminal is armed with a firearm and will thus try to shoot to kill. You have two options here, try and reduce the number of guns in circulation or reduce the incentive to commit crime.
Option 1 requires draconian laws that will affect the law abiding population first and foremost, and which goes against the very core of the american culture.
Option 2 requires a lot of work from everyone to improve society, reduce drug abuse and social inequality. There is no short term solution for any of this, and most long term solutions will also require societal changes that won't sit well with large parts of the population as fixing social inequality will surely lead to cries of COMMUNISM and rejection of any such policies.
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You take a comparable area from USA, for example state of Michigan or Alaska, and do your comparisons, you'll get the same results.

The fact that they don't even collect the nation wide numbers of the cases where the cops have shot and murdered someone is insane. That's something some third world dictatorship would do.

Somehow Finnish cops are able to pull off wounding shots time after time. Go figure. Maybe it has something to do with the training. The police training here is minimum three years I think. In US it's possible to become a cop in 360 HOURS. Less than it takes to become a barber. I mean, a barber has to give you a nice hair cut, all the cop has to do is blow your head off.

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/jobs-training-police-trnd/index.html
 
MutantScalper said:
You take a comparable area from USA, for example state of Michigan or Alaska, and do your comparisons, you'll get the same results.

The fact that they don't even collect the nation wide numbers of the cases where the cops have shot and murdered someone is insane. That's something some third world dictatorship would do.

Somehow Finnish cops are able to pull off wounding shots time after time. Go figure. Maybe it has something to do with the training. The police training here is minimum three years I think. In US it's possible to become a cop in 360 HOURS. Less than it takes to become a barber. I mean, a barber has to give you a nice hair cut, all the cop has to do is blow your head off.

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/jobs-training-police-trnd/index.html
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Well for once (and I can't believe I am going to say this) you are mostly correct.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/police-training-killings-usa-nordic/

That being said I see no evidence that I can find that Finnish police are trained to "shoot to wound", and all I can find is the same typical training of shoot center of mass. Also as said in the snopes article, Finnish police are trained to not use there Firearms unless absolutely necessary, and do not have to deal wit the same situations as American Police.

As for Canadian Police, sorry but we are closer to the Nordic cops then Americans.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/why-canadian-police-are-so-good-at-not-shooting-people

Also as for the amount of Training in Nordic countries. As far as I know Finland has such a high amount of university education compared to jobs available pretty much every job has incredible high standards of education compared to North America. You might find this a good thing but when you cant get a job as a civil engineer without 8 years of schooling I would say something is wrong. The people from Finland I know in Canada are all here because at least they can actually find a good job here.
 
TheGM said:
No such thing.
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Gonzo just proved you wrong.

GonZo_626 said:
Well for once (and I can't believe I am going to say this) you are mostly correct.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/police-training-killings-usa-nordic/

That being said I see no evidence that I can find that Finnish police are trained to "shoot to wound", and all I can find is the same typical training of shoot center of mass. Also as said in the snopes article, Finnish police are trained to not use there Firearms unless absolutely necessary, and do not have to deal wit the same situations as American Police.

As for Canadian Police, sorry but we are closer to the Nordic cops then Americans.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/why-canadian-police-are-so-good-at-not-shooting-people

Also as for the amount of Training in Nordic countries. As far as I know Finland has such a high amount of university education compared to jobs available pretty much every job has incredible high standards of education compared to North America. You might find this a good thing but when you cant get a job as a civil engineer without 8 years of schooling I would say something is wrong. The people from Finland I know in Canada are all here because at least they can actually find a good job here.
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Some cases of Finnish cops shooting to wound and taking perp alive.

General info:
https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/...ne_of_duty_about_ten_times_each_year/10183865

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/...bing-suspect-shot-in-the-leg-2017-8?r=US&IR=T

Comparison, US police vs. Finnish police, US police 100 x deadlier.
https://newrepublic.com/article/126473/american-cops-100-times-deadlier-finnish-police

From Czech, but same principle.
https://www.policeone.com/use-of-fo...hooting-center-mass-Im-told-we-kill-everyone/

http://dailyfinland.fi/national/5809/Man-injured-in-gunshot-by-police-in-Helsinki

Etc. etc. I see it's just Gonzo posting links, rest of ya'll, The GM etc. are really weak in defending the murderous US cops.
 
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GonZo_626 said:
Well for once (and I can't believe I am going to say this) you are mostly correct.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/police-training-killings-usa-nordic/

That being said I see no evidence that I can find that Finnish police are trained to "shoot to wound", and all I can find is the same typical training of shoot center of mass. Also as said in the snopes article, Finnish police are trained to not use there Firearms unless absolutely necessary, and do not have to deal wit the same situations as American Police.

As for Canadian Police, sorry but we are closer to the Nordic cops then Americans.
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As far as I can say, the German guidlines for police officers mention the use of deadly force always as last option where all other options are either not effective or feasible, I guess that's similar for most police officers everywhere. I can not say if there is an explicit training for either 'shooting to wound' or 'to kill'. It seems the use of deadly force is seen as very situational, which of course includes sometimes the necessity to eliminate the threat as quickly as possible.

This is what the training with weapons looks like:



full


profile:ezone-teaser940x516


All I can say is, there are extremly strict guidelines in how and when police officers are allowed to use their weapons and actually shoot at a target. For example, the officer has to issue a warning. Otherweise, any self defence regulation also applies, where officers have to protect themselfs and others.
 
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MutantScalper said:
Gonzo just proved you wrong.
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Lets see shal we.
GonZo_626 said:
That being said I see no evidence that I can find that Finnish police are trained to "shoot to wound", and all I can find is the same typical training of shoot center of mass.
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Scalper you are either trolling or are fucking retarded. Police are trained to shot to incapacitate. This isn't a movie and getting shot in the shoulder isn't the safest place to get shot, putz.
 
TheGM said:
Lets see shal we.

Scalper you are either trolling or are fucking retarded. Police are trained to shot to incapacitate. This isn't a movie and getting shot in the shoulder isn't the safest place to get shot, putz.
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You're the one living in the country with the murderous cops with itchy trigger fingers so, yea. Fuck off.
 
Unless you can prove that U.S. cops are 'trained to kill', I am taking your 'shooting to wound', with a grain of salt. I mean, provide me with a medical study showing certain parts on the body are more approved for bullets than others. In my experience, getting shot ANYWHERE is a really bad thing.

In regards to aggressive policing, I might have to give to you euros. I saw a video where they sent 10 or so cops to 'safely' subdue one crazy man. I think Crni was the one who linked it. You know what though, in a normal situation, I don't think we can afford to send 10 or 20 plus cops just to 'safely', subdue someone who has maimed or killed people.

TBH, I think you euros should have straight ended that fucker Anders Brevik. That piece of shit should have died in the most painful fashion for the lives he took, ESPECIALLY, the children.
 
MutantScalper said:
Gonzo just proved you wrong.
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Actually no I didn't on that comment. Nowhere can I find any evidence of a different standard of training (besides the Czech one but I will get to that below) when it came to actually using the firearms, there is no shoot to wound/kill training, it is all shoot center of mass to incapacitate. I actually cannot find any articles talking about specific training Finnish cops receive besides saying they get more training.


MutantScalper said:
Some cases of Finnish cops shooting to wound and taking perp alive.

General info:
https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/...ne_of_duty_about_ten_times_each_year/10183865

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/...bing-suspect-shot-in-the-leg-2017-8?r=US&IR=T

Comparison, US police vs. Finnish police, US police 100 x deadlier.
https://newrepublic.com/article/126473/american-cops-100-times-deadlier-finnish-police

From Czech, but same principle.
https://www.policeone.com/use-of-fo...hooting-center-mass-Im-told-we-kill-everyone/

http://dailyfinland.fi/national/5809/Man-injured-in-gunshot-by-police-in-Helsinki

Etc. etc. I see it's just Gonzo posting links, rest of ya'll, The GM etc. are really weak in defending the murderous US cops.
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So getting to the Czech training now. It appears that if the other person has a gun they will shoot center of mass, the difference is the US has a crime problem with lots of guns.
Also the Czechs allow regular people to own a lot of the guns you have talked about banning. A VZ-58 is pretty much no different to an AR-15/AK-47. In fact using the Czech's as an example only is proving more of the points the reasonable of us have been stating as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_Czech_Republic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._58

So a European country that allows pretty much everything that the US allows but requiring a bit of training. You just lost the gun control argument hahahaha (kinda won the police one though)
 
GonZo_626 said:
Actually no I didn't on that comment. Nowhere can I find any evidence of a different standard of training (besides the Czech one but I will get to that below) when it came to actually using the firearms, there is no shoot to wound/kill training, it is all shoot center of mass to incapacitate. I actually cannot find any articles talking about specific training Finnish cops receive besides saying they get more training.




So getting to the Czech training now. It appears that if the other person has a gun they will shoot center of mass, the difference is the US has a crime problem with lots of guns.
Also the Czechs allow regular people to own a lot of the guns you have talked about banning. A VZ-58 is pretty much no different to an AR-15/AK-47. In fact using the Czech's as an example only is proving more of the points the reasonable of us have been stating as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_Czech_Republic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._58

So a European country that allows pretty much everything that the US allows but requiring a bit of training. You just lost the gun control argument hahahaha (kinda won the police one though)
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I can't find the Finnish cops shooting guidelines anywhere, however there are lots of cases where they go for an extremity in a shooting situation and pretty much always successfully.

Czech might have higher gun mortality than Finland but still lower than USA, so...errr...no you didn't prove anything.
 
MutantScalper said:
I can't find the Finnish cops shooting guidelines anywhere, however there are lots of cases where they go for an extremity in a shooting situation and pretty much always successfully.

Czech might have higher gun mortality than Finland but still lower than USA, so...errr...no you didn't prove anything.
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It proves that it is not the firearms themselves that cause the problem, something you do not seem willing to acknowledge. Czech is a fine example of regular people with a little training responsible using firearms with no significant impact on there populace. They allow so called "assault weapons" for regular people in a shall issue environment. They allow concealed carry for self defense once again in a shall issue environment. One thing I like that they do is it seems they require there police officers to obtain a firearms license as well, something I wish we did here in Canada as there are quite a few cases of police officers having their service firearms stolen due to poor storage that a regular gun owner would be crucified over (trunk of car, the backseat of there personal car).
 
GonZo_626 said:
It proves that it is not the firearms themselves that cause the problem, something you do not seem willing to acknowledge. Czech is a fine example of regular people with a little training responsible using firearms with no significant impact on there populace. They allow so called "assault weapons" for regular people in a shall issue environment. They allow concealed carry for self defense once again in a shall issue environment. One thing I like that they do is it seems they require there police officers to obtain a firearms license as well, something I wish we did here in Canada as there are quite a few cases of police officers having their service firearms stolen due to poor storage that a regular gun owner would be crucified over (trunk of car, the backseat of there personal car).
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Not even sure why we're all of a sudden talking about Czech gun laws. However, I remember that Breivik went to Czech because he thought that it would be easy to get a full auto/semi auto weapon there, turns out it wasn't that easy. So, it may be that Czech isn't actually the kind of gun happy -wonderland you might think it is. Some eastern European nations have pretty high homicide and also gun violence mortality figures, these could be due to the overall shittier societies they have. Estonia one example of this.

Then again it could also be a proof of having lots of guns, both legal and illegal, floating around in a country, result is a lot of gun violence.
 
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Breivik ended up purchasing weapons in Norway. He went the hunting-weapon-route for the rifle, where he had ambitiously envisioned getting his hands on a brand new HK416 (LOL... ) for then to "settle for" an AK-47 (lal... ) and then finally just getting a semi-auto hunting rifle that he then spiced up with scopes and scopes on the scopes, to make it look badass. The level or retardation in someone who actually will kill you... frustrating...
For his Glock pistol, he went the legal shooting-club-route, and actually had to play along and go to these little meetings and shoot at targets and stuff. He was dissapointed in the Czech republic, and he also expressed frustration in dealing with unhelpful criminals :V
 
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