Gun Control

A guy just killed 59 people, and the US has a serious issue with such incidents.
Islamists killed such amount of people in EU recently too, they slipped in thanks to German wilkommen culture. You simply handwaved away any opinions asking for stricter immigration policy - bad apples, personal responsibility, and yadda yadda.. Too bad you don't apply the same logic here, how convenient for you.
 
Islamists killed such amount of people in EU recently too, they slipped in thanks to German wilkommen culture. You simply handwaved away any opinions asking for stricter immigration policy - bad apples, personal responsibility, and yadda yadda.. Too bad you don't apply the same logic here, how convenient for you.
Apparently Spain-Barcelona, France-Nice and their own countries are also eurocucks, eh?
 
I'm from Finland. Some time ago we started having school shootings and other big shootings, on a rate of one per year. The school shooters were 'inspired' by the Columbine school shootings. So it's a 'fashion' I'd prefer we didn't have here.

To answer your question, yes. When someone is murdered, or in the case of Vegas when ~60 people are murdered by a single assailant, it is a bigger deal than a single case of accident where a person, say, slips on a banana peel or something and dies. And reducing these both is not mutually exclusive, it's very much mutually inclusive. The same people who are worried about, say, alcohol deaths are the same people worried about gun deaths.

And the same people who belittle shootings like Vegas, Orland, Sandy Hook, etc. are the same people who belittle alcohol deaths, car accident deaths, etc. I like people who are alive and well and not full of bullet holes or dead from car accidents or dead from alcohol etc. You seem to disagree.

If you believe a life lost to intention is greater then a life lost to accident, regardless the scale, it's a position I can understand, though I disagree.
If your point is that to believe one thing is to the exclusion of all other things, such that I can believe in using a firearm without being worried about gun violence, or drink without being worried about drunk driving, then that is a very naive and reductive method of thinking. If, in the now four pages of this thread that I have participated in, you believe I dislike "people who are alive and well and not full of bullet holes or dead from car accidents or dead from alcohol etc." that's willful ignorance at best, or more likely, gross mischaracterization to win an internet point instead of engaging in a conversation. I'm not inclined to trash Finland or assert my narrative on your beliefs to return the point.
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At this point, I've said all I came to say, and to continue in that vein would be to repeat myself for the sound of my own voice. I'd be glad to discuss regulation, or answer questions about American law or the political process. Otherwise, I will leave the condemnation of civilian gun ownership and/or American gun culture to those who wish to do it. I'll say the same thing I signed off with on the last time we had these conversations: It's a good thing none of us live in a world governed by the other's philosophy.
 
Yes, because a terrorist is JUST as easy to stop when they are using a dinky knife, homemade weapons or vehicles, and have the same lethality, than with a fucking AR15.
Terrorists are not dissuaded by laws that say they can't own firearms. Retard.
 
Terrorists are not dissuaded by laws that say they can't own firearms. Retard.
Ah, now I see it. You think that ISIS cells aren't completely normal citiziens that bought their propaganda and used their guidelines to stage their own with whatever they could get access to. So it's completely dandy if Civillians get access to weapons, like, for instance, guns! After all, the Vegas shooting would have been way better if there were more guns there than in the stereotypical Saloon. They totes could have shot back, for instance, as exposed to me by Graves.

It's not like laws are made to PREVENT in the biggest measure possible. Only the most deluded child would think that laws will magically stop what it's supposed to. I'm baffled at this "we have all this glaring gun related crime, but eh, it's unavoidable so fuck it"
 
Awesome strawman some of you guys are creating right now ...

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Crni, you are asking the world's largest gun manufacturer/exporter to simply turn off the money. It ain't happening. Count on more people to get blown away in heavily populated areas. If they want to survive in this new USA I suggest they arm themselves/prepare to die when traveling near schools, hotels, stadiums, post offices, parks, streets, stores, homes, basically anywhere.
Oh hey, I know nothing will change. Not any time soon anyway. And part of the problem is that to many people are sucking on the tits of the NRA which is also sucking at the tits of the weapon industry manufacturing all those guns selling them to the next best person.

Islamists killed such amount of people in EU recently too, they slipped in thanks to German wilkommen culture. You simply handwaved away any opinions asking for stricter immigration policy - bad apples, personal responsibility, and yadda yadda.. Too bad you don't apply the same logic here, how convenient for you.
No I didn't, I actually agreed with more controlls at borders. Do you really think I am for terrorists and criminals?

What I am not doing however, is blaming 2 billion muslims for the actions of some lunatics. Just as how I am not blaming every gun owner for every lunatic. 99% of legal gun owners are not so nuts that they will run around guning down people. But we're not talking about responsible gun owners, for all I care, they can have their weapons. All of them. We're talking about gun culture right now.

And yes, Islam is for me not a religion of peace, I detest ALL(!) religions and I think the gun culture in the US is toxic just as how religions are toxic, but I am attacking ideas not people. There is a difference between criticising Islam for the terrorism and demanding the banning of all mosques. Besides I am also not asking for the baning of weapons, neither here nor in the US.

Many gun owners love to mention the Swis, well if the US adobted their gun culture, it would be a huuuuuuge improvement! But they can't even do that much ...
 
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I don't think that they should be as banned as the UK does, which is banning even butter knives.
Obviously a hyperbole.

You can own certain models of guns in the UK so long as you acquire a hunting license and get it approved by a public official.
Terrorists are not dissuaded by laws that say they can't own firearms. Retard.
How many terrorist attacks in Europe or places outside the US involve firearms?

Do you think any terrorist would bother trying to run people over with trucks if they could easily get access to assault riffles? The reason these attacks happen with knives and trucks and not guns, is because it's easier for them to get knives and trucks than guns.

They wont be dissuaded by the laws, but if there is no simple way to get hold of the most destructive types of guns, then obviously less attacks will involve guns.
 
You can own certain models of guns in the UK so long as you acquire a hunting license and get it approved by a public official.

That is literally the exact same thing we have here.
 
How many terrorist attacks in Europe or places outside the US involve firearms?
Those where makeshift bomb or stolen truck won't do the trick, obviously. Charlie Hebdo for instace, plowing through the building in a truck would be useless, so they bought some smuggled guns instead. The same goes for Breivik, got his rifle on black market.. (Yes I'm aware he changed his name recently.)
 
Right. If they wanted guns they could have used them. They were making bombs in Spain in some big house and nobody knew about it. It's not much harder to smuggle guns than it is drugs and those are everywhere.

Until the US stops making guns it will be filled with them. You have to get permits to carry concealed weapons here, but that doesn't stop people I know from walking around with a pistol in their purse. The NRA needs to be stopped to make any kind of real change in regards to gun control. It's the society that is fucked up not the guns. I guarantee you ban AR15 type rifles or large capacity magazines and people will hoard the fucking things until they become legal again while the gun manufacturers bring in tons of money off panicked buyers.

Solution is clamping down on WHO can buy the guns. You have a history of seeing giant talking aliens and beating your wife? No guns for you. You touch little kids? No guns. You thinking of killing yourself? No guns. You get the point...

The Vegas shooter looked like a fucking fruit loop. If I saw that dude come into the store to buy a gun I would be wary.
 
There is much you have said that I can agree to, and some that I don't, but it is a step towards finding some common ground.

I am given the most pause by the use of guns in suicide, as those figures far outnumber other instances of gun violence. The range I shoot at most often has suicide prevention posters all through-out, has trained many of it's employees to recognize some of the signs and direct people to counselors, and holds suicide awareness and prevention classes in conjunction with other local groups. I like that approach quite a bit.

I also want to keep access to guns limited for those with mental issues that pose a threat to themselves and others. My question is always 'who gets to judge'. If you are feeling down, and call a counselor about your depression, are your guns automatically seized? Is there a process to recover them? If a medical professional determines you may be a danger to self or others, at what point along that spectrum should they act, or be compelled to act? How would enforcement work? What would happen to your firearms if it was determined they could not be returned to you for an extended period of time?

What I would not want to do is inadvertantly negatively incentivize someone from seeking treatment out of fear that any record of counseling could result in a permanent loss of their rights under our system of government.
 
Obviously a hyperbole.

You can own certain models of guns in the UK so long as you acquire a hunting license and get it approved by a public official.
Of course. It is a bit more strict than EU average, but it was and is made a more huge deal than it is due to how it was presented.
Right. If they wanted guns they could have used them. They were making bombs in Spain in some big house and nobody knew about it. It's not much harder to smuggle guns than it is drugs and those are everywhere.
After interrogation and post event investigation they were two chumps with no other contact than the guidelines. And the bombs were based on butane gas containers that were stockpiled there. If it was on accident, terrorists or not, it is unknown. But I guess it's all the same, right? After all, fuel to keep housings warm and other amenities is just the same as devices designed to make holes in our fellow man!
 
Those where makeshift bomb or stolen truck won't do the trick, obviously. Charlie Hebdo for instace, plowing through the building in a truck would be useless, so they bought some smuggled guns instead. The same goes for Breivik, got his rifle on black market.. (Yes I'm aware he changed his name recently.)

He purchased all his weaponry legally. He even complained in his "manifesto" how he was not taken seriously by "criminal gangs" when he attempted to aquire AK47s (he originally had wanted to get HK416s, but these turned out to be absolutely impossible to find)

He finally conceded to going the legal route, joining a pistol club, and legally buying the Glock right here in Norway, as well as the Ruger hunting rifle, which he accessorized to make it appear more militaristic.
 
Okay, count him out. I do remember some funny stories he wrote about pestering Czech smugglers and whatnot, did not know it fizzled out.
 
Okay, count him out. I do remember some funny stories he wrote about pestering Czech smugglers and whatnot, did not know it fizzled out.

Haha, yes, indeed, after trying and failing with criminals here, he tried abroad, and felt increasingly cheated by the difficulty of aquiring automatic firearms. Which, I guess... is points for gun control, as well as going back to what Jogre said - terrorists in Europe tend to opt for running people down with vehicles, or putting legally available chemicals together to make explosives.

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Not to get too involved in this whole debate, but we're always talking about *limiting the damage*
Nobody can foresee mass murderers mass murdering using legal means, such as the legal hunting rifle Breivik finally aquired. Point is he struggled, and finally failed at getting his hands on a fully automatic weapon.

Complete elimination of lethal danger is never really an option, we all understand that. If it's not an automatic rifle - it's a semi-automatic one. If it's not a rifle, it's a revolver. If it's not a revolver, it's a knife. If it's not a knife it's a car:
Cars require licences
Knives are forbidden to brandish in public
Pistols require licenses
Rifles require permits
Automatic rifles are completely banned, apart from home guard troops

One home guard soldier in Norway massacred his family with an automatic rifle, during a birthday party. The NOKAS bank robbery was commited using automatic rifles stolen from army depots, and a police officer was killed. So, these things happen - with all the restrictions in place. However, what we do NOT have - is regular gun violence. Criminals do not carry guns as if it was a given. Drug dealers etc. do not carry guns. Police do still patrol and perform most arrests while completely unarmed, as in - approach criminals, apprehend criminals, detain and arrest - while never drawing - or even carrying a weapon.
 
One home guard soldier in Norway massacred his family with an automatic rifle, during a birthday party. The NOKAS bank robbery was commited using automatic rifles stolen from army depots, and a police officer was killed. So, these things happen - with all the restrictions in place. However, what we do NOT have - is regular gun violence. Criminals do not carry guns as if it was a given. Drug dealers etc. do not carry guns. Police do still patrol and perform most arrests while completely unarmed, as in - approach criminals, apprehend criminals, detain and arrest - while never drawing - or even carrying a weapon.
Yeah, it's as if there was a different culture around guns.
 
Well Trump is pretty tyrannical, right? So why haven't they shot him yet?
As far as personal freedom goes, so far he has been less tyrannical than Obama or what Clinton would have been.

One can buy a gun without any 'tests', legal or of course illegal.
You cannot buy guns in an american gunstore without first going through a background check (and depending on the state a waiting period).

And one can conceal carry without any 'licence' to do so. So...yea.
You cannot legally conceal carry without a CC permit.

Btw NRA isn't a 'national' organisation, it's a the lobbying and propaganda office of the US gun industry.
National doesn't mean "owned/run by the government". Seriously. Use a dictionary some time.

Also this isn't a 'game', tens of thousands of people die every year in US alone because of a 'hobby'.
And?

In our society we weigh things based on their perceived value & cost. How many times do I have to repeat that gun owners have made this value judgement and found it acceptable.
If you want to talk about meaningless deaths, why don't you advocate outlawing of smoking, alcohol and so on?
You're a Finn. So let's ban rally. It offers no benefit other than entertainment and it kills & maims people as well as animals. ;)

Because they are cops and not civilians. They have to put themselves in harm's way when they raid gangs and other criminal/organized crime houses or "bases", their job is to risk their lives each day because they target dangerous individuals that can attack them with knives or guns too. Civilians do not have to deal with these dangers because usually they stay away from criminal houses/organized crime.
And yet rich people and politicians get protected by cops and private bodyguards, and you are left to fend for yourself. As said above, the US Supreme Court ruled that the police has NO duty to protect you. There is no guarantee at all that they will show up, let alone show up on time to help you if you need help.

Also notice how you say they have both. Which means that they only use the lethal weapons when they really have to, for most of the time they use the non lethal.
When a civilian is threatened, it tends to be with serious bodily harm. A firearm is proportional to that threat.
Also cops tend to be paired for a reason. There's no guarantee that you won't be alone when attacked.

In some countries including the Republic of Ireland, the UK (except Northern Ireland), Norway, Iceland, and New Zealand police do not carry firearms unless the situation is expected to involve gunfire from the opposing force. So there are some countries that have police forces without guns unless they expect enemy fire.
You realize that the amount of armed police in the UK has literally exploded over the past decade, and that that is in a country where handguns are illegal to own and where semi-automatic rifles are only legal in rimfire cartridges?

I have never felt the need to conceal carry myself, but I do not have the audacity to claim that I can decide for other people that they do not need it. In my country, concealed carry firearms, pepper spray, tasers, and so on are all illegal, but if I had a daughter that lived in a troubled neighborhood of a major city, I'd support my daughter if she wanted to carry a weapon (if it were legal).

I don't see what you mean with your question, by that logic, since in the USA people can legally own guns there shouldn't be police forces. Because everyone can protect themselves if they want.
Police does not just protect, it enforces.
Besides, after a concealed carry incident, the police is still needed to help determine if the action was justified or not.

It's their right to do so, so why does police officers have to risk their lives to protect people that can protect themselves? It's nonsense.
Because carrying a gun doesn't magically make you invulnerable and infallible?
You're the one spouting nonsense here.

I hate to play that cuard, but in the wake of 59 dead people and more than 500 wounded, I think you have a very hard stance on defending 'firearms' as defensive weapons.
The shooting has had absolutely no effect on my stance whatsoever, because my stance has been formed with the knowledge that such a thing might happen. And I have found that the cost of these rights is outweighed by the benefits it brings to individuals.

I am sorry, I am just not buying that reasoning, when you consider the lethality of them. This is what weapons are made for, this is their design. To shoot at something.
I'm not asking you to change your opinion, merely to recognize that there is a valid argument to be made for my point of view.

And I find this atitude of "naw, guns are every day objects you can do soooooooo much more than just shooting!" very worrysome.
And I find it worrisome that you are afraid of inanimate objects.
It's not like violence & crime will suddenly disappear if we ban all firearms.

I mean can you at least admitt that the US has a very problematic gun culture?
Sure, there are things I would want to change if I lived there.
But overall, I think that the US mental health culture, the self-medication culture, the education system, the entitlement culture and so on are far more troubling than its gun culture.

Most of this shit could have been prevented if there were metal detectors all over the fucking place.
The surveillance state is a problem on its own. But the more freedoms you are willing to put on the chopping block of "safety", the closer we inch towards it.

I haven't followed the story closely (the next shooting will roll around too quickly to bother) but how did he get so many guns into the hotel? Seems it wasn't how easy he got the guns, but how easy it was to set up camp and pick off targets.
What's special about it? He was a high profile gambler which stayed in hotels for most of his time. So he had a great many bags. He just had the bellhop bring the bags up and gave him 100 bucks probably?
 
I have never felt the need to conceal carry myself, but I do not have the audacity to claim that I can decide for other people that they do not need it.
Yet you can decide that they need it.

The surveillance state is a problem on its own. But the more freedoms you are willing to put on the chopping block of "safety", the closer we inch towards it.
The freedom of not being stopped by carrying suspicious metal objects sounds like a fair exchange.
 
As far as personal freedom goes, so far he has been less tyrannical than Obama or what Clinton would have been.

And you as a Belgian are all about the "personal freedom"-levels of Americans, while siding with the more red neck/hick - crowd.

You cannot buy guns in an american gunstore without first going through a background check (and depending on the state a waiting period).

Proof? They're buying guns all over the place in US and not much is put into checking this.

You cannot legally conceal carry without a CC permit.

It's not monitored in any way.

National doesn't mean "owned/run by the government". Seriously. Use a dictionary some time.

So it's a private nationalistic militaristic right wing fringe organization with racist views that promotes the interests of private weapon manufacturing corporations at the expense of the health and safety of average Americans. It's also masquerading as a kind of 'governmental organization' with 'historical significance' etc., lol. I feel so much better already.

And?

In our society we weigh things based on their perceived value & cost. How many times do I have to repeat that gun owners have made this value judgement and found it acceptable.
If you want to talk about meaningless deaths, why don't you advocate outlawing of smoking, alcohol and so on?
You're a Finn. So let's ban rally. It offers no benefit other than entertainment and it kills & maims people as well as animals. ;)

I'm not a huge rally fan.
 
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