Gun Control

[Deleted member 93956]

Metal detectors are BAD, man. You have to remove your belt if it has buckles, your wrist watch, your glasses and notify implants... They shouldn't be a thing, I can't piece out any other use for them than to violate my freedom!

And yet they may have saved the lives of hundreds of people per year? People that may not have had a chance if they hadn't been armed?

You'd think that if the gas station mugger has a baseball bat instead of a gun escalation would be lesser...

 

[Crni Vuk]

Which I said first. So we are in agreement on that point at least. It's just that I don't think it's the militia part that's the important part. Swiss youth is involved in shooting way before their military service even starts.

I don't think that is necessarily what seperates the Swiss from the US.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

Ok so to recap SuAside's views.

- laws are ok, except when SuAside and NRA-Cletus thinks they are
- SuAside ignores the racism of the NRA and it's history of racism and racist roots
- SuAside seems to think genocide is ok
- SuAside would like to get rid of metal detectors at US schools and other public institutions
- SuAside is in favour of suicide

Ok then, let me just get my coat...

I bet he hates kittens too.

 

[GonZo_626]

Ok so been catching up on this thread and many on here seems to think gun control would have stopped the Vegas shooting and as a person living in Canada and knowing about all the gun control here I can say not one law we have here would have stopped this. So lets look through this:

1 - Licensing So in Canada we have to past a test (or 2 for restricted and as this is what was used by the Vegas guy lets say 2). After passing the 2 tests (with courses) you will fill out a form and apply for your license. You have to have no weapons bans and have 2 references and a spouse sign off. The Vegas shooter had a brother and wife who seemed to think he was a normal guy and he had no prior criminal record so..... LICENSE OBTAINED (but I actually agree with licensing for smoothing the process while buying for both owner and seller. I have purchased an AR and taken it home the next day)

2 - Type of firearms So Vegas shooter had an ever changing number of guns in his hotel room. As the 2 main ones (AR-15's) are restricted we have transport restrictions attached to our license to say we can take such and such rifle or handgun registered to us to certain places. But nothing about this stops somebody from doing something as until I am checked by a LEO who knows what I am carrying in my backpack. But hey the transport requirements help right, well criminals still carry guns so NO EFFECT.

3 - Magazine limits Semi-automatic firearms are limited to 5 rounds for center-fire ammunition (pretty much everything above .22lr). This is done by insuring that mags are pinned to only accept 5 rounds and if chosen would not be hard to remove, also as many experience shooters have shown changing mags takes almost no time. NO EFFECT

4 - Slide fire or gatling triggers Well looking at both of those they would take me less then a day to build if I was so inclined NO EFFECT (but I agree should be banned as a waste of precious, precious, ammo I mean it would be hard to aim accurately using those)(also from what I read these have been banned on NRA ranges for awhile and were approved for selling by the same people who want more control, Democrats (2010 under the Obama administration)).

So those for GUN CONTROL please tell me how it actually changes anything? Also blaming the gun for somebody misusing it is like blaming the car or drink for somebody killing a family for drinking and driving. We as intelligent beings need to take responsibility for our own actions and not inanimate objects, weather a car driving on the road, a rock thrown off a roof, or a firearm being used in a crime an individual made a decision and that decision is the problem not the way they carried it out.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I could say the same about laws regarding murder, because someone will always murder someone somewhere. NO EFFECT!

Solution? Get rid of all laws regarding murder!

 

[GonZo_626]

Fi

I could say the same about laws regarding murder, because someone will always murder someone somewhere. NO EFFECT!

Solution? Get rid of all laws regarding murder!

First I did not call for one law to be removed. I am just saying that the act of calling for more control when it would not have changed anything seems to be short sighted. Gun control does not stop murder and if you look at the root cause of most violent crimes you will see 2 common threads. 1 mental health, 2 criminal activity those are the root issues. A little known fact if you remove the states in the US that have brought in state level gun control the US murder rate drops off vastly bringing it in line or below all western nations heck you could remove 2 cities (Chicago and Detroit) and end up with almost the same result.

Gun control is not the issue and as gun owners we would happen to know what might change things for the better (better mental health support, addressing poverty issues, addressing gang activity).

 

[TorontoReign]

If only those gun control laws would have stopped the OKC bombing.

 

[Crni Vuk]

But the argument is the same, as you're saying that it wouldn't be effective. And I am sure if I would name Australia or Germany or a few other nations, with more restrictions, you would probably wave it of ass "naw not possible in the states!". How could you know if it's not effective in the states, if it was never tried? Sure, you can't unarm all those lunatics and nuts runing around crying MAH FREEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! and that you have to take their weapons out of their cold dead hands ... but that still doesn't it can't be effective, just because it possibly can't stop every idiot who's deciding to start a massacre. But again, you could say that about almost every law.

If only those gun control laws would have stopped the OKC bombing.

I am not sure, are you for or against gun controll?

 

[TheGM]

How many black people do you have in Germany or Australia?

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Sure, you can't unarm all those lunatics and nuts runing around crying MAH FREEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

It's unfortunate that your knowledge of Americans only comes from youtube clips, it's a pretty shallow pool and usually the loudest, most outrageous are the ones that get heard. I wouldn't expect basing one's knowledge on that would result in a pretty clear picture of the situation. You might be surprised if you ever came to the states that it's not a perpetual race-war gun fight from coast to coast. I don't really think you can make an argument in good faith off of that as a foundation.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Of course it's a hyperbole. And I never said it's common. But it certainly exist and you can't tell me, that if the US ever was adobting stricter gun laws, that those people would give up their weapons freely. I honestly believe, that this could actually spawn a small civil war in some parts of your nation ...

But to be more serious here, the thing that really makes me shake my head is when I consider how ... deep the culture of guns is going for some people. So much that they buy pink guns for their children. At some point, things become like a fetish for people. And that's not very healthy.

 

[GonZo_626]

But the argument is the same, as you're saying that it wouldn't be effective. And I am sure if I would name Australia or Germany or a few other nations, with more restrictions, you would probably wave it of ass "naw not possible in the states!". How could you know if it's not effective in the states, if it was never tried? Sure, you can't unarm all those lunatics and nuts runing around crying MAH FREEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! and that you have to take their weapons out of their cold dead hands ... but that still doesn't it can't be effective, just because it possibly can't stop every idiot who's deciding to start a massacre. But again, you could say that about almost every law.


I am not sure, are you for or against gun controll?

Crin all I have said is that in this situation that Canadian Gun Control Laws would not have prevented the Vegas shooting. I never said some form of gun control would be completely ineffective. But there is a point where going after more or thinking that it would stop all or even most of these situations is wrong. Yes there has to be a place for government to draw the line, and the question is where should we and will it have an effect. A lot of gun control will not have any effect on murder rates especially if those murders are not being carried out by people who have no criminal record (so in other words law abiding people). The vast majority of firearms deaths in the US are suicide not crime. And do to the way and nature of what is reported by each country it is actually very hard to compare without deep digging into what each is reporting.

I am for gun control, but effective gun control, not laws passed in a state of emotion that will have no effect. In Canada we brought in our strict laws after the Poly-Technic shooting. The laws were brought in to stop that instance from happening. When everything was said and done and they banned all the "scary" firearms (there is documented evidence of this including a magazine where they circled scary guns, there is a pump action shotgun banned because it was in terminator 2) the exact firearm used in the shooting was left non-restricted and can still be purchased (ruger mni-14) and used. They restricted others even if they had never been used for a crime in Canada (AR-15). The exact 2 firearms I am talking about fire the same round (.223), use the same magazine (STANAG 5.56 mags), and are both semi-auto. To me there is no difference in the 2 besides the way they look. Ruger mini-14 (gun used), AR-15 (restricted because scary looking military assault weapon) no difference in operation.

So please elaborate how gun control will actually stop crime, without going well such and such country has gun control and it works. That's the south park sock nome argument.
First we get the socks .... something .... profit.
First we ban the gun ..... something ..... no deaths

This is all I see, with no justification how it would actually work.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well, what would be sensible laws in your opinion that are effective?

 

[TorontoReign]

At some point, things become like a fetish for people. And that's not very healthy.

I doubt Susy Housemaker's kids and their pink AR15's are the ones going around murdering people. It's the mentally ill, drug addled, sociopathic/psychotic, religious zealots that cause issues. Those parents are the ones that get shot on accident when they take their kid to the range. Ever wonder why it is mainly men that shoot people? Think that is a gun issue or a mental health issue towards males? Just spitballing but the modern world has tons of aggression with very little outlet, whereas once we would have killed our food like wolves, now we are a society of passive sheep.

This reminds me of the Samurai being disarmed in Japan a little bit. You have a group of people that live and die by the sword. For this example we will use the gun nut/hunter/sports shooter/military-esque American. They value different things about their hobby since not all people are alike. They like being able to shoot firearms that aren't muskets. They like the sport of it usually for different reasons. People use automobiles as an example often in gun control debates. Nobody can drive a Dodge Viper max speed legally in the USA, but you see people buying them, usually with the knowledge that they are breaking the law, exceeding the speed limit, even though they really don't need to. AR15's are like that. I say AR15 because that is all politicians know about. They have portrayed a .22 AR style rifle as a machine gun on the news before. This is why gun nuts (like myself although I am far too poor to act on my hobby) defend the right to own our firearms.

When all the other countries in the world are stuck under the oppressive boot of fascist politicians because they gave up their liberty, the US will be the last one standing. Why do people act like this planet is filled with a bunch of morons that should NOT be taken out anyway? Do you really care if some gangbangers kill each other? Do you care if a bunch of evil people kill each other? Innocent life is the only concern, these mass shootings make up a small portion of the gun violence in the US. I have no problem with criminals murdering each other to even out the surplus population and lessen the burden on functioning human beings.

People that have never fired a weapon just don't get it. I see you in the gun debates all the time. People are defending their hobby. Just like you guys said violent games didn't make Billy Shitbag kill his Mom over GTA. Gun culture did not cause the Vegas Massacre. The AR I have is a piece of fucking shit compared to what the Army/Police (same thing now) has and some of you dudes act like it's a fucking AK47. There is no right answer here because it all comes from everyone's feelers. There is no hard data on what is causing this. You can't change the way people think. You can't take things away from people and say it is for their own good.

Why do these shootings happen now more than in the past? More guns or more crazy? I say they always happened like this they just happened for different reasons. Used to be based on race. Now it's based on who cut you off in traffic.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Of course it's a hyperbole. And I never said it's common. But it certainly exist and you can't tell me, that if the US ever was adobting stricter gun laws, that those people would give up their weapons freely. I honestly believe, that this could actually spawn a small civil war in some parts of your nation ...

Civil war? Gettysburg II? You don't realize how out of touch you are.
I'm not sure why you suddenly have so much faith in the US gov't to do the right thing there anyway, you usually go out of your way to shit all over them, do you not? After what agencies like ATF did at Ruby Ridge and Waco, they basically not only confirmed but exceeded every paranoid lunatic's fears. Calcified them.

But to be more serious here, the thing that really makes me shake my head is when I consider how ... deep the culture of guns is going for some people. So much that they buy pink guns for their children. At some point, things become like a fetish for people. And that's not very healthy.

So you're conflating outliers on the fringe of the fringe of the fringe to a very large, very diverse population again. Besides, IF it's legal, and they are responsible gun owners, why stick my nose in it?

 

[Crni Vuk]

I doubt Susy Housemaker's kids and their pink AR15's are the ones going around murdering people. It's the mentally ill, drug addled, sociopathic/psychotic, religious zealots that cause issues.

So you're saying the columbine kidz are not affected by the culture around them? I am not saying that you're wrong, but we're making this to easy if we simply declaring everyone 'mentaly ill', of course they are not healthy individuals, but there is a bit more behind all of it. I mean, each time someone taks his machine gun, rifle or what ever out and guns down 40 people, it's pretty clear that he will dominate the evening news. Senstationalism, plays a huge role too and fire arms help with that. Not to mention, that it puts a problem on people that actually DO suffer from certain mental conditions, like depressions and such, like a stigmatisation.

I mean guns, fire arms hell any weapon really, has a lot of symbolism to it. I don't just love tanks for nothing. They are cool looking stuff. And the same is true for fire arms in some sense.

So when you grow up in a 'gun culture' like in America, your whole thinking and behaviour around fire arms is affected by it in some way. And just like everything, it has negative sides to that.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Psych meds + guns is not a good combination. Lets get them paint brushes.

 

[Crni Vuk]

No shit. There are only very few things that work well under drugs.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

You've never been to Disneyworld on acid.

 

[GonZo_626]

Well, what would be sensible laws in your opinion that are effective?

My basic version would be something along the lines of licensing and training, the more training you get the better license you get the more you can own. I don't agree with anything technically being banned as in the US real assault rifles and machine guns can be owned by a select few and guess what full auto M16's and M60's are not being used for crime.

I also think that they should be placed in categories based on the action of the firearm

Basic License - training in storage care and handling and laws surrounding use - covers pump-action, bolt-action, lever action, and single shot firearms excepting handguns.
Advanced License - covers ownership of semi-automatics excepting handguns
Handgun License - covers ownership of handguns, restriction on transport to certain places excepting carrying license (handguns to be registered with government to prevent resale to criminals)
Handgun Carry License - covers the carry of handguns on person, intense training period that will have to be re-tested every 5 years
Automatic License - covers the ownership of automatics, intense training that will be re-tested every 5 years, (Automatic action firearms to be registered with government prevent resale)

All Licenses subject to criminal record checks and mental health checks
Storage requirements will be needed (wont someone think of the children)

No magazine restrictions as they are useless, and I mean really useless
No length restrictions as a rifle with a 10" barrel will kill you the same as a 18" barrel.
No grenade launchers or tanks (what the hell America, I mean I could see the fun but?????)
No bans based on the visual of grip features (a pistol grip does not make a rifle a better killing machine, its about comfort)

Now for the non-gun but would help all violent crime and sucide

Better engagement of at risk youth (future gang bangers)
Carding (requesting ID has been seen as racist in the US and Canada, but guess what, it worked)
better mental health system and not making it a stigma also if someone has guns and has a mental health problem, instead of seizing them maybe store them (at a cost to the owner) or let them sell them. This will help placate people and hopefully have them go to a professional for help.