Gun Control

[TorontoReign]

So you're saying the columbine kidz are not affected by the culture around them? I am not saying that you're wrong, but we're making this to easy if we simply declaring everyone 'mentaly ill', of course they are not healthy individuals, but there is a bit more behind all of it. I mean, each time someone taks his machine gun, rifle or what ever out and guns down 40 people, it's pretty clear that he will dominate the evening news. Senstationalism, plays a huge role too and fire arms help with that. Not to mention, that it puts a problem on people that actually DO suffer from certain mental conditions, like depressions and such, like a stigmatisation.

I mean guns, fire arms hell any weapon really, has a lot of symbolism to it. I don't just love tanks for nothing. They are cool looking stuff. And the same is true for fire arms in some sense.

So when you grow up in a 'gun culture' like in America, your whole thinking and behaviour around fire arms is affected by it in some way. And just like everything, it has negative sides to that.

I'm saying those aren't the kids you are talking about. Kids getting cute little guns in stable homes and going hunting Elk with Mommy and Daddy are rarely killing people. It's the edgy loners in broken homes that end up shooting schools since they are on meds or need to be on meds. Liking something a lot is ok unless you are mentally ill and it causes harm. You have a fetish for guns but aren't a fucking nut? There is no problem.

Also, has anyone noticed how pills have not made things better? Imagine that.

 

[Crni Vuk]

How many black people do you have in Germany or Australia?

We had jews.

I am not sure what you're trying to say here.

You have a fetish for guns but aren't a fucking nut? There is no problem.

Dunno. The guy in Las Vegas was in his 60s I think. Maybe he was a lone, weird nutjob for the last 50+ years, but he also stock piled on guns and used them for the massacre.

The guy went under the radar for a long time. So much for sure I absolutely agree that the mental health system in the US is even more of a problem than their gun culture.

But we are talking about guns right now and in this topic. And how people perceive them is in my opinion a part of the problem, and there can be no doubt that the US as a nation has a very lax relation to fire arms in general. They are often seen like tools, commodities, the embodiment of power and liberty they are part of your national identity. Be it as objects, a sort of symbolism or when it comes to sensationalism. Mc Donalds, Tobacco and Alcohol probably kill more people per year than most guns but they do not dominate the evening news, it's stuff like the LA shooter. So even in the media, guns have a kind of strange effect here.

And on top of that, you have that whole lobbysm thing going on, which is a damn bloody industry ... pouring money in to the NRA and they in turn trying to influence politics in a very corrupt way.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

"Laws bring established don't stop being infringed" wow no shit, then we should do nothing to change that and it just happens to fit my interests

 

[JohnnyEgo]

Cmi, guns aside, there are certain things about the nature of the American people I think you just do not understand. Or at least you misunderstand the magnitude. No guns involved, our cultural heritage is at it's core very different then the European standard.

We are a young nation, founded in revolt from a strong central government, but also not entirely in trust of one another. Our entire system of government was designed around a living document that broadly outlined our core beliefs, but specifically and intentionally left the boundary between central and regional government to be vaguely defined; the conversation of where those boundaries are to be decided by the people through our legislatures and courts. We are a nation founded by immigrants, both voluntarily and by force. We are not culturally homogenous, and the experiences of our respective forebearers differ greatly. This is part of the reason we place far greater trust on the individual then in the collective. Our founding documents reflect the finest of our aspirations, but our laws and culture reflect the considerable difference between our ideals and our realities.

This is part of the reason an Australian or UK style limitation on firearms can't 'just be tried'. A significant portion of our population might think there need to be limits on firearms, but the idea of forced seizure is fundamentally more intolerant. Many of those who would want to see it implemented would still worry about placing the power to do so in the hands of our central government, for fear of what might next be found intolerable. At the time when our government had the most support it ever would from the populace for placing restrictions on 'assault weapons', the best they could do with that support was place restrictions on sale. Never for a moment could they get the consent of the people for seizure of private property on a national scale. Couldn't even do it with machine guns some 60 years earlier, when gun crime related to prohibition formed newspaper headlines on a daily basis. Our central legislative branch, the Congress, could only enact restrictions through their power to tax. We got registration, but not seizure of legally held private property. And that was long before the NRA manifested it's lobbying power and influence.

This same fundamental uncertainty toward our central government is what allows our individual states such autonomy. California can, and has, placed restrictions on it's citizens that are far in excess of what our central government could. The general consensus is that there are enough people who live there and want or are willing to support these restrictions, and those who find them intolerable are free to move to other states. That is why while many people are unhappy with California's recent magazine bans, and perhaps unwilling to comply with registration or surrender, you don't see mass armed insurrections against the state. Our national identity is bound more to our ideals, our regional identity to our geography.

It is seldom any two Americans agree on everything, or even much of anything. It's what gives the things that do unite us such power, even when they unite only a minority of our people. Could our central government enact broad regulations on firearms? Perhaps if the culture changed enough. Could it ban or seize them outright? Not without fundamental changes to our Constitution and the will of our people, and we are nowhere near ready to invest our central government with that sort of power, even in the face of mass tragedy.

 

[TheGM]

I am not sure what you're trying to say here.

I am sure you don't.

Dunno. The guy in Las Vegas was in his 60s I think. Maybe he was a lone, weird nutjob for the last 50+ years, but he also stock piled on guns and used them for the massacre.

The man was a multi-millionaire any sign he had of being unstable was most likely passed off as being eccentric. people seem to forget how fast mental illness creeps up on you. look at Charles Whitman, he knew something was very wrong with himself but only enough self control to realize that. He ended up killing his wife, his mother and then climbing clock tower at the university of Dallas and sniped a bunch of people. turns out he had a tumor in his brain that had become necrotic and began rotting. Obviously legislation against one losing their mind should be passed to prevent others from doing so as well.

I absolutely agree that the mental health system in the US is even more of a problem than their gun culture.

Implying there is a problem with American gun culture.

 

[SuAside]

Ok so to recap SuAside's views.

Oh boy, here we go.

- laws are ok, except when SuAside and NRA-Cletus thinks they are

Laws are by design something that trails slightly behind the general opinion of the citizens (and this is a good thing). It's a (somewhat late) translation of the moral view of the citizens.

If you do not agree with these laws, you can ignore them or publicly fight it, but you should be willing to take the punishment that such an act can entail.

- SuAside ignores the racism of the NRA and it's history of racism and racist roots

I have literally nothing to do with the NRA, so why do you keep bringing it up?

- SuAside seems to think genocide is ok

No, I said that genocide is possible. Humanity has done it many times before. My comment was not an endorsement.

I'm sure that at some point in history, there has been a genocide which I could endorse. But I can't really think of any off the top of my head.

- SuAside would like to get rid of metal detectors at US schools and other public institutions

I said no such thing. It'd be nice if you'd stop putting words in my mouth.

- SuAside is in favour of suicide

If someone has thought it over and has been in therapy without any solution being found? Then yes. It's legal in Belgium. It's called intolerable psychological suffering, for which you can request euthanasia.

My comments about the effectiveness of using guns for suicide is however no endorsement of suicide.

 

[Hassknecht]

Oh boy, here we go.

Yeah, you know there's fun stuff coming up when Mr. Genius there says something like that.

If someone has thought it over and has been in therapy without any solution being found? Then yes. It's legal in Belgium. It's called intolerable psychological suffering, for which you can request euthanasia.

My comments about the effectiveness of using guns for suicide is however no endorsement of suicide.

Suicide should be illegal, and any attempt should be punishable by death.

 

[Jogre]

Implying there is a problem with American gun culture.

I mean, if it results in psycopaths having easy access to weaponry, and results in people getting shot for petty crimes, yes I'd say there's a problem.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I am sure you don't.

What do you want to say with, I quote:
"How many black people do you have in Germany or Australia?"

The man was a multi-millionaire any sign he had of being unstable was most likely passed off as being eccentric. people seem to forget how fast mental illness creeps up on you. look at Charles Whitman, he knew something was very wrong with himself but only enough self control to realize that. He ended up killing his wife, his mother and then climbing clock tower at the university of Dallas and sniped a bunch of people. turns out he had a tumor in his brain that had become necrotic and began rotting. Obviously legislation against one losing their mind should be passed to prevent others from doing so as well.

Fair enough.

Why don't we give those people access to the nuclear lunch codes as well? Oh, if we are at it, wey don't we all put them in charge of any power plant or other crucial infrastructure as well.

Now that I think about it ... you already have such a guy as President ...

 

[valcik]

Why don't we give those people access to the nuclear lunch codes as well? Oh, if we are at it, wey don't we all put them in charge of any power plant or other crucial infrastructure as well.

Why can't we go the German way and make these people pilots instead?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

 

[Crni Vuk]

Why can't we go the German way and make these people pilots instead?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

It was Germanwings' first fatal crash in the 18-year history of the company.​

Sure, but you have the equivalent of one plane crash almost every day.

The U.S. is ranked 4th out of 34 developed nations for the highest incidence rate of homicides committed with a firearm, according to Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) data. Mexico, Turkey, Estonia are ranked ahead of the U.S. in incidence of homicides. A U.S. male aged 15–24 is 70 times more likely to be killed with a gun than their counterpart in the eight (G-8) largest industrialized nations in the world (United Kingdom, France, Germany, Japan, Canada, Italy, Russia).[103] In a broader comparison of 218 countries the U.S. is ranked 111.[104] In 2010, the U.S.' homicide rate is 7 times higher than the average for populous developed countries in the OECD, and its firearm-related homicide rate was 25.2 times higher.[105] In 2013 the United States' firearm-related death rate was 10.64 deaths for every 100,000 inhabitants, a figure very close to Mexico's 11.17, although in Mexico firearm deaths are predominantly homicides whereas in the United States they are predominantly suicides.[106] (Although Mexico has ostensibly strict gun laws, the laws restricting carry are often unenforced, and the laws restricting manufacture and sale are often circumvented by trafficking from the United States and other countries.[107]) Canada and Switzerland each have much looser gun control regulation than the majority of developed nations, although significantly more than in the United States, and have firearm death rates of 2.22 and 2.91 per 100,000 citizens, respectively. By comparison Australia, which imposed sweeping gun control laws in response to the Port Arthur massacre in 1996, has a firearm death rate of 0.86 per 100,000, and in the United Kingdom the rate is 0.26. In the year of 2014, thousands of Americans were killed by guns. There was a total of 8,124 gun homicides.[108] In 2015, there were 372 mass shootings and 33,636 deaths due to firearms in the U.S, while guns were used to kill about 50 people in the U.K.[103] More people are typically killed with guns in the U.S. in a day (about 85) than in the U.K. in a year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#Homicides​

 

[MutantScalper]

"CNN tallied those numbers last year, and with another year of data available now, we have updated our findings.
For every one American killed by an act of terror in the United States or abroad in 2014, more than 1,049 died because of guns.
Using numbers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, we found that from 2001 to 2014, 440,095 people died by firearms on US soil. (2014 is the most recent year for which the CDC has data for deaths by firearms.) This data covered all manners of death, including homicide, accident and suicide.
According to the US State Department, the number of US citizens killed overseas as a result of incidents of terrorism from 2001 to 2014 was 369.
In addition, we compiled all terrorism incidents inside the United States and found that between 2001 and 2014, there were 3,043 people killed in domestic acts of terrorism.* This brings the total to 3,412."

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/03/us/terrorism-gun-violence/index.html

Yet all the nazi-screeching about Muslims and zero about guns.

"Guns kill nearly 1,300 US children each year, study says"

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/19/health/child-gun-violence-study/index.html

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

A U.S. male aged 15–24 is 70 times more likely to be killed with a gun than their counterpart in the eight (G-8) largest industrialized nations in the world

That's kind of a broad demographic, I think if you drilled deeper you'd find more relevant disparities based on more specific demographic categories. There's not any diversity in Japanese males 15-24 across the same demographic categories. Japanese-American's gun mortality rates and criminality rates are not the same as other demographics either.

I'm trying not to get anything radioactive on me here. I did not say this. I am not here.

 

[valcik]

"Guns kill nearly 1,300 US children each year, study says"

Fucking guns, someone should disable their AI..

 

[GonZo_626]

It was Germanwings' first fatal crash in the 18-year history of the company.​

Sure, but you have the equivalent of one plane crash almost every day.

The U.S. is ranked 4th out of 34 developed nations for the highest incidence rate of homicides committed with a firearm, according to Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) data. Mexico, Turkey, Estonia are ranked ahead of the U.S. in incidence of homicides. A U.S. male aged 15–24 is 70 times more likely to be killed with a gun than their counterpart in the eight (G-8) largest industrialized nations in the world (United Kingdom, France, Germany, Japan, Canada, Italy, Russia).[103] In a broader comparison of 218 countries the U.S. is ranked 111.[104] In 2010, the U.S.' homicide rate is 7 times higher than the average for populous developed countries in the OECD, and its firearm-related homicide rate was 25.2 times higher.[105] In 2013 the United States' firearm-related death rate was 10.64 deaths for every 100,000 inhabitants, a figure very close to Mexico's 11.17, although in Mexico firearm deaths are predominantly homicides whereas in the United States they are predominantly suicides.[106] (Although Mexico has ostensibly strict gun laws, the laws restricting carry are often unenforced, and the laws restricting manufacture and sale are often circumvented by trafficking from the United States and other countries.[107]) Canada and Switzerland each have much looser gun control regulation than the majority of developed nations, although significantly more than in the United States, and have firearm death rates of 2.22 and 2.91 per 100,000 citizens, respectively. By comparison Australia, which imposed sweeping gun control laws in response to the Port Arthur massacre in 1996, has a firearm death rate of 0.86 per 100,000, and in the United Kingdom the rate is 0.26. In the year of 2014, thousands of Americans were killed by guns. There was a total of 8,124 gun homicides.[108] In 2015, there were 372 mass shootings and 33,636 deaths due to firearms in the U.S, while guns were used to kill about 50 people in the U.K.[103] More people are typically killed with guns in the U.S. in a day (about 85) than in the U.K. in a year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#Homicides​

Hmmm.... this seems to make my point about how gun control is not the only measure (well unless you go full retard, and you never go full retard).

whereas in the United States they are predominantly suicides.

 

[Crni Vuk]

It also mentiones crimes, homicides and mass shootings of which are all much higher in the US on a per capita basis of 1000 individuals.

We can spin around causes as much as we want and geting lost in the details. But at the end of the day when you look at the data, it's clear that the US has a gun problem. How to fix it? I am not sure. Again, I am NOT(!) advoating for taking any guns away, I said this multiple times, I think you should keep all of them.

 

[SuAside]

Suicide should be illegal, and any attempt should be punishable by death.

You joke, but this used to be the case in Great Britain. Its maximum punishment was death by hanging (though for obvious reasons, I think you'll have a hard time to find historical record of that sentence ever having been handed out).
This is no longer the case, of course.

 

[TheGM]

It also mentiones crimes, homicides and mass shootings of which are all much higher in the US on a per capita basis of 1000 individuals.

And that is literally black people killing each other at those rates. nobody cares though but if you bring it up you must be a racist.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Ok, why do you mention it then (now for the second time)?

 

[Hassknecht]

You joke, but this used to be the case in Great Britain. Its maximum punishment was death by hanging (though for obvious reasons, I think you'll have a hard time to find historical record of that sentence ever having been handed out).
This is no longer the case, of course.

Yeah, I know. Pretty much the reason why I made the joke in the first place