Gun Control

It does actually, I'm a HUGE fan of depopulation. The more useless biomass that is eradicated the better.
I'm a bit confused as to why people abhor conflict so much?

Last time I checked pure force is the most effective way of solving problems. :)
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On a serious note, this bleeding heart "guns killed my family/ruined my society" crap has to stop. It's a tool, guns do not currently self operate, and people are literally insane. Guns don't ruin a society, people do. If anyone thinks it's the other way around they literally have the mind of a child. Grow up and learn that humans just kill humans, its what they do, and they have been doing it since they have been around. Sure guns make it a bit easier, but before guns were super common everyone just poisoned the bananas out of each other or offed each other with pointy sticks of dubious construction.

Shirking reality in favor of some Disney fantasy of rainbows and happiness will lead you down a very dangerous path, that will most likely result in your own destruction by those willing to see the world for what it is. A massive cesspool of unwanted biological creatures being very grumpy on a floating dust mote, killing each other off for the finite resources it contains within to sustain existence longer.

Unless you can solve for the human experience there will not be a solution to this conundrum.

If you were walking through hell, wouldn't you want a gun at least?
 
So basically we need guns because people are too stupid to not kill each other and it's basically hell on Earth.
But if that was true, how come other countries either manage to do fine without massive amounts of guns around or do fine with guns around?
It can't be that much down to human nature, unless you think that US citizens are that much closer to feral barbarians.

Seriously though, I agree somewhat. It is people that kill each other, not the guns themselves.
However, an overblown gun-culture leads to a common mindset of constantly impending doom and danger, a paranoia and a more itchy trigger finger and a general devaluation and dehumanization of fellow human beings.
By having an easy way to kill each other so deeply ingrained in culture, people will feel much easier killing each other over lesser issues. And that leads to a vicious cycle, you have people growing ever more paranoid of the evil crazy people around them, strengthening the mindset that makes those people crazy in the first place.
I like guns as much as the next guy, and I still don't believe that european-style gun control will work in the US. I'd like gun ownership to be free to anyone, because that's part of a free society to me, but I wouldn't want to live in a society where I'd feel so unsafe and endangered that I'd feel the need to own and carry a gun at all times.
 
Because if the baby keeps eating soap and lithium batteries you should just sigh and leave him at it :D
 
From my perspective too many people are clustered too close together is precarious positions. Most individuals in the United States are far too busy just trying to survive a month of bills, taxes, and other mindless tedious issues. Dealing with such a large overblown system and the constant market fluctuations seriously prevents any routine from developing.

Imagine if you have a bunch of problems, but you can't solve them because they are either against the law to do so, or buried under so much bureaucracy that making any progress is literally impossible if you don't make a specific amount of money a year.

The United States' largest issue (from my perspective), and how firearms come into play here is the system imposed upon the citizens. Literally if you don't make a reasonable amount of money, or have a benefactor that can assist; you're pretty much screwed.

The society is very top heavy and going to college is a mandatory requirement for anything now. The problem here is that no one has the capacity to remotely pay of these debts. Speaking of debts, the United States is so far in debt that they are never going to pay any of it back. The United States should have defaulted a long time ago.

I understand that a lot of this seems disconnected from the topic at hand but it does play a part to it all. The United States is one of the few places in civilized society that the citizens have the capacity to take matters into their own hands whether its legal or not.

With the advent of the internet and parents literally failing to raise their children due to the immense pressure to be profitable the newer generations are not being socialized properly, this is leading to an alarming degree of individuals entering schools, and the work environment completely unprepared for any responsibility or experience to have a real shot.

To be honest it would be of benefit to the rest of the human population on Earth in this situation to let the civilization self destruct than provoke it. Otherwise this rot will end up taking anyone one it can with it.

TLDR: The general population in the United States is fucked. Welcome to the decline of a super power.
 
That was a lot of nothing combined with the average edgelord "Everyone is stupid but me" mentality.

I disagree, I'm just as stupid as anyone else. I'm simply willing to admit there is a problem, that I lack the capacity to solve.
 
There is some pretty extensive research on the subject of wealth inequality and what it does to a society, you can compare pretty much any third world country with those that have realtively low inequalities and crime and corruption is almost always worse from the top to the bottom.

Just to make this clear, I am not talking about equality in outcome, but wealth distribution. And it is not even so much a problem of rich people in the first place, It's simply a problem of math actually, Pareto's Principle also know as the 80/20 rule, over time wealth accumulates at a growing rate on the top due to interests.

For example last time I checked 85 individuals owned as much wealth like 3,5 billion people or something like that and the inequality is even growing.

The issue with inequality is that it's an extreme and extremes tend to even them self out over time, which happens often in a very chaotic and viollent fashion.

A society has not to be 100% equal, but if people feel to be a part of a rigged system while loosing faith in the government (it's institutions, not the politicans), then you have a recipe for disaster.

If you're interested in a somewhat stabile society, then you have to make sure that there are not to many extremes, like with the distribution of wealth, income and property.

What's even worse is that many people today confuse liberty with neo-liberalism, which makes me alwayw wonder, are there so many people out there owning large corporations, that they have to argue for less regulations that make sure that you're not getting poisened or the environment destroyed?

It's one thing to strive towards equality for all, but it's quite another to be doing it when some of one's neighbor(s) are not the least bit concerned with their own contribution
Don't confuse income equality with equality in outcome which is also different from striving for equality. You can not ensure equality in outcome - nor should you.

What really disturbs me in general though is that it's almost ALWAYS a debate that is about the poor, lower income/under class, potential wellfare fraud and how they might feel 'entitled' but there is almost never any serious converstion about wealth, wealth distribution and the damage of to high inequality in wealth. Suddenly it becomes a conversation, where 'socialists' just want to steal the money of the 'people' or something silly like that - like the 1% on the top would be 'the people' anyway, if someone really would want to steal from them.

But money is power particularly political power and right now more and more money is concentrated in the hands of fewer people. So this is really not only about stealing from the rich. Wealth distribution is also a way to make sure that democracy is actually functioning how it's supposed to function.

When somebody decides that they want nice things, but they don't want to afford those nice things... they may go looking to take someone else's nice things; and when they do, they often come with a weapon—whether it's legal or not. If the law states that one cannot posses a weapon, then what is the expected recourse for those who are threated with illegal weapons?

E - X - A - C - T - L - Y ! And that's why it's beneficial to have a society that is at least somewhat equal, where you make sure to have a large middle class, which is disapearing in the US.

And it is much more likely that people will come to get those nice things, if there is an growing inequality.

This is the reason why in some african nations you need walls to protect poor regions from wealthy ones, and most of the people aren't killers there - I work with people that visit those places regulary for charity work. They just grow up like that, you take what you want, because there is no other realistic way to get it.

Ask your self why those people want the nice things and why they have to arm themself to get it. You make it sound like you believe the majority are this type of criminal:

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Which isn't the case.
 
@ Cerni Vuk I didn't see your post, before posting my own; I'm reading it now.

It can't be that much down to human nature, unless you think that US citizens are that much closer to feral barbarians.
I think it's becoming that way for a significant segment of the population, yes. It's a lack of effective parenting, in a 'win for showing up' culture, where everyone gets a trophy for participation, and sheltered from the 'pain' of losing... but then later, they don't get a job for just asking for it.

I live in a place where people can trivially make their own job. There are people here making $30 an hour by spray painting themselves gold and pretending to be passed out drunk on the street... or having their dog do it instead.

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... yet we have tent-cities in the central business district full of [please help me!] card carrying homeless, and one or more of them on every major street corner. They don't want a job or a home, and yes, some of them might not have the skills to maintain those if they had them... but that's still part of the problem... and the homeless travel in packs.


This place appeared over a decade ago... and it is STILL there, even though this video is from 2015, and mentions a health department deadline later in the week.





I have seen most of the above take place here; with different individuals. I remember a woman in the late 90's to very early 2000's that panhandled in front of a large hotel every night... She used an especially pathetic countenance (a practiced act, in costume), and at the end of the night, she would change single bills for hundreds in a local bar or a strip club.


People here bring their families out to popular traffic intersections to beg for money; for their school, or for their birthday party, or for anything that comes to mind if it might get them charity. Kids running in traffic with plastic buckets.

The grassy areas at these intersections have dirt trails worn into them, from panhandler's back & forth treading from car window to car window. Make no mistake—that is their 9-5 job; and they treat it like that, and they stay there for months (sometimes years).

Once on Halloween, I saw two parents trick-or-treating alone—with no kids. When asked... they explained that their children were at a party, so they were getting their candy for them.

That was a lot of nothing combined with the average edgelord "Everyone is stupid but me" mentality.
Some of that was—rather disturbingly just the way it is here now.
Specifically:
With the advent of the internet and parents literally failing to raise their children due to the immense pressure to be profitable the newer generations are not being socialized properly, this is leading to an alarming degree of individuals entering schools, and the work environment completely unprepared for any responsibility or experience to have a real shot.

Kids here don't think it hurts to get shot—they don't even think that far into it. Adults here drive like they learned how by playing GTA; they point their car wherever they point their nose, and don't concern themselves with the safety of other drivers. Their chief concern is getting where they want to go—irrespective of inconvenient traffic laws; and anyone in their way, is offensively in their life. I have had people pass me on the right, to make left hand U-turns.

It IS the case where a lot of young "adults" have no grounding when it comes to not getting what they want or expect—as I'm sure you've heard of the 911 calls about not getting served at Burger King.

Several years ago a Parks service held a guided cross country hike for college students; the students were told that it was rough country, and to bring all they would need for the trip. They didn't bring any food; they expected to stop at McDonalds along the way. Think about that... that means that they have no clue of what running a business means, and sparse grasp on reality... that they would assume there was a McDonalds in a place with no roads.

There are new mental disorders now that have to do with cell phone separation. Part of this is no doubt related to a society that no longer remembers facts —in favor of remembering where to get the answers; and so there is a need to be online at all times, with a fear of having no social presence (for a time) for lack of internet. There are people now, that freak out for needing to sleep—because of the Facebook notification updates they'd miss in the night.

These are not people that should have guns... but a hamfisted law that says no one should have guns is not the sane answer IMO... and even these people have the right to defend themself if their life is at stake... as do their victims if they go on an armed tantrum.
 
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And again, without the intention to offend you, the conversation is pushed into the 'sick culture of poverty' where everything is either fraud or lazyness or somehow the fault of the individual.

It never is about the sick culture of wealth.

I don't think I or anyone here argued against personal responsibility, but it just a start, not the end. The US is one of the richest nation in the world, with some of the most serious issues of any western democracy, including gun viollence, inequality, health care and many others. And what makes this even more disturbing, is that a lot of European nations take this as example to follow the same path with this new Neoliberal thinking ... that everything becomes inherently better, then more 'privatized' and 'liberal' everything is.


Considering all the issues I had to deal with since the day I was born, from depressions to misstreatment of which some was pretty severe, I would be already dead in the US. I would be one of those 'lazy' bums living on your streets most probably, or who knows what else.
 
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And again, without the intention to offend you, the conversation is pushed into the 'sick culture of poverty' where everything is either fraud or lazyness or somehow the fault of the individual.
No offense taken; and in my case none is ever intended.

It never is about the sick culture of wealth.
What is the offense of wealth—specifically? Is it having wealth, or doing insidious things with it?

Is a distinction made for a self-made millionaire? If someone spends their life making restaurant after restaurant, until they profit a million dollars from it annually... what's wrong with them having it?

There are two lessons in "The Little Red Hen"; not just one.

Considering all the issues I had to deal with since the day I was born, from depressions to misstreatment of which some was pretty severe, I would be already dead in the US. I would be one of those 'lazy' bums living on your streets most probably, or who knows what else.
That is very sad and upsetting to hear; it always is, with anyone who had that happen to them.

Homelessness is not the problem; I've been homeless twice. The problem is in choosing to stay that way; willingly—for years, and to demand that it's someone else's responsibility to do something about it. It is a truly great thing when someone chooses to help a person up, but you cannot lift a person up higher than they want to go. There are homeless lottery winners. There are people who will nurture and maintain an infected wound—because it gets them charity from the sympathetic, by showing it off as their excuse to need help.

There are people who have walked a homeless person into a restaurant (myself included), and either given them money for food, or ordered food for them, and after they wish them well and leave, that person then left with the money, or tried to return the food for a refund. This is a person who wants wealth, but wants it for free. This also a person to whom the act of concern for them is meaningless unless it's in cash—and even then it's not gratitude... it's picking fruit from human trees.

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What is the offense of wealth—(specifically?), having wealth, or doing insidious things with it?
For starters, there are not enough serious conversations going on about how wealth is actually created and accumulated and what it does to society - particularly when inequality is growing, but I do not want to get to ideological about it right now and I do not blame this on the rich in particular even though I see my self as a leftist, I am not an extreme Marxist/Socialist. It's simply our econic system which is build on exploitation - aka 'capitalism' which see as problematic. THe point is, we're runing a hamster wheel here, where almost everyone dreams about beeing rich, however just like the lottery, everyone can play the game, but not everyone can win the game - compard to socialism where the game is rigged right from the start.

To understand where I am coming from I have to go a bit more into detail.

For example, the creation of money and wealth can be somewhat problematic, expecially when you go in and privatize certain sectors so that shareholders of some companies can gain access to new markets to increase their worth. As how they've done it with some hospitals here, which turned out always to be worse for the costumers in the end, making services more expensive and lowering the quality. It now isn't so much anymore about treating people till they are healthy again, but what procedure is the best one to clean the beds and sending the patients home in order to increase profits. It even has become part of the language, as patients of such hospitals are not described as 'patients' anymore, but as 'customers' and 'clients', it's simply put a dehumanisation - we even do it somewhat in my job with the children, think about that ...
A study I have read about on that subject, claimed that in such hospitalis patients have a small but increased chance of dieing due to complications compared to hospitals which are not purely profit oriented, since the hospital simply decided to send those people home to early. And I blame most of that on neo-liberal ideology and ideas. I know from students that in some classes get taught now to keep an emotional 'distance' from patients, where as they taught students just a few decades before that they should build relationships with their patients. Again, patients are now 'clients' and reducing costs is one huge principle in every part of our society now. The place I am working now, which is one of the largest provider of services of child and elder care, has a lot of older employees which also comment about changes in how things are run now, where the quality they provide has droped extensively when the company became more and more profit oriented over the years.
We also saw an heavy increase of privatisation of pensions in Germany over the last 20 years, also leading to a more expensive and particularly convoluted system, by allowing insurance companies to gain more access to a wider portion of the population. Namely those, that relied purely on government pensions before. A system that has worked for around 60-70 years without many issues is now facing a situation where millions of people are in serious danger of facing poverty when they retire, despite the fact that they worked for 40 years in regular jobs - well paying jobs as well!
Or in Paris, when the city sold their water supply to private companies runing purely profit oriented operations, the quality decreased and the prices increased. It became so bad, that the city had to buy the water supply back from the companies. This also happend in other European cities. In some cases prices literaly increased by 400% when the companies took over. And now the EU is opening the doors to even more privetisation of water supplies.



The problem I have with the 'culture of the rich' in particular though, is that it often is compared to 'work' which I find misleading. Are there many rich people that work really hard? No doubt. Is all their wealth created only trough their 'personal' work though? I beg to differ. You can't make millsions or billions as a normal worker. That's simply not possible. Not with a normal occupation. So when people look up to someone like Gates or Jobs or the Google guys, that's fine. But they have always to remember they made their fortune by holding stocks and taking money to invest it in something, where other people actually work generating the profit they reap from those investments. This is how you really accumulate large amount of wealth. You can not do that by 'usual' means, for the lack of better words, like working in a coal mine for a coal company, or selling mobile devices that you made on your own. How many coal or devices would you have to sell, to become a millionair? How much time would that require? 50 years? 100? Probably closer to 2000. Do not missunderstand me, again I am not one of those crazy anarcho-communists where I don't grant rich people their wealth. But it has much less to do with real 'physical' work when it comes to becoming rich and that's a huge problem in our current system and cultures where money counts literaly for everything.

The issue here is proportionality. For example I have read that during the 1950s the difference between the average earning of a worker and his boss was a factor of 25 or something, so the owner of a factory earned 25 times the salary of his employee. Today it's more like 200. The wealth inequalty between the top wealthiest and the poorest people in our societes, is today even larger compared to the middle ages, if you take someone like Gates and compare him to a janitor working in one of the Microsoft office buildings and place that next to a king and peasant of the 11th century.

The other part is the culture of wealth, that quite often breads exactly the kind of people that you lamented about a few posts earlyer, spoiled brats that don't know anything about life. But that's much less of a concern in my opinion, since spoiled and moronic people certainly exist among all classes to speak so.

Is a distinction made for a self-made millionaire? If someone spends their life making restaurant after restaurant, until they profit a million dollars from it annually... what's wrong with them having it?
There are lots of people owning restaurants, and only very very few of them are 'millionairs'. That's what I am talking about. You do not become a millionaire trough your 'own' work. You become a millionair by letting others work for you, by making investments and reaping the profits, some people make in 5 min. trough some business deal more then 100 people earn in 1 year. Is it their intelligence? What's really the difference between selling a 100 million dollar property to some Sheik compared to a guy selling a mobile device to the average american in some apple store? I doubt that if you would run some kind of IQ test, that rich and super rich people would be so vastily different to the rest of the population. As studies often show when it comes to wealth, the family you're born in seems to be one of the more deceicive factors here - albeit not the only one.

Someone owning several restaurants or maybe even a whole chain of restaurants isn't cooking and selling each and every meal by him self. A chain like MC Donalds is having thousands of restorants with even more workers in there, doing their jobs at the minimum wage, for the profit of a small group of people holding most of the stocks.

Homelessness is not the problem; I've been homeless twice. The problem is in choosing to stay that way; willingly—for years, and to demand that it's someone else's responsibility to do something about it. It is a truly great thing when someone chooses to help a person up, but you cannot lift a person up higher than they want to go. There are homeless lottery winners.
Yes, but that's - I would assume - a minority and I am talking about the majority. Look, I am not necessarily saying that you're wrong I just would say that you're sellective in your choice of examples. There is a difference if we're talking about macro or micro-economic events for example. What you show here can, without a doubt explain the issues of some individuals, as everyone has different reasons for his behaviour anyway and there are lazy bums among homeless people just as there are among 'wealthy' individuals.

However, this counts for very little if you want to explain differences in whole regions with hundred thousands if not millions of people occupying areas struggling due to closing companies and financial bubbles created by huge banks causing ripple effects in the economy devastating whole communities, towns and even regions. Like the colapsed housing bubble, with bail out on banks or car companies like in Detroit deciding to outsource whole factories, take the rustbelt of the USA as a whole example. What you described about homeless people here and maybe some individuals comitting wellfaire fraud even, helps very little in explaining the situation of the dwindling middle class an increas of struggling families which live from paycheck to paycheck in a crumbling infrastructure. And telling those people that all they have to do, is to roll up their sleeves, to suck it down and just 'work harder' while improving them self, isn't going to help them really.

As I told you, yes oportunities can be made eveywhere, but concentrating solely on those that 'made it' is actually a fallacy - particuilarly in economy! Called Survivorship bias.

Survivorship bias or survival bias is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that made it past some selection process and overlooking those that did not, typically because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways. It is a form of selection bias.​
 
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The issue I have with all of this is that I cannot in any way influence nor direct change in a reasonable way that could potentially benefit a large population. That's why more and more people have been pushing to have the federal government of the United States restrict freedoms and take on a larger role in governing the population. (This is not a good thing)

No one wants to be accountable or personally responsible for any specific fight or issue currently plaguing society. So the federal government does what it can by slapping bandages on what it thinks is the main issue at play. However this only serves to exacerbate to rather egregious degrees. (Bystander effect)

Those that do rise to the call of action however are stuck in a situation where the population flatly refuses change or even in some cases become violent by simply suggesting change. At best they are blamed for failing when the population they wished to serve refuses to adopt their suggestions.

To be honest I would not be surprised if at some time a camera is fixed onto every firearm with a AI like program constantly determining whether or not the situation justifies the use of the tool. Even then I would not believe for a second that in any way such an action would solve gun violence.
 
Well the same mechanics you described here also prevents the negative, where some individual like Hitler gets in to power destroying eveything for his ideology or agenda.

It really works both ways. There are a lot of very competent people, which are yes, held down by the 'system', but not everyone who's competent, has the best motivations.

Our democratic systems are slow when it comes to changes, but that's actually by design.
 
To be honest I would not be surprised if at some time a camera is fixed onto every firearm with a AI like program constantly determining whether or not the situation justifies the use of the tool. Even then I would not believe for a second that in any way such an action would solve gun violence.
I wouldn't be surprised either; but it won't work. They are already making AI's to decide and evaluate the value of life. Self driving cars will have to decide who to hit when faced with immanent collision with one or the other of two or more impacts. So I assume that some day one of these cars will drive off a cliff to protect the other car's inhabitants—when they are estimated more valuable than its own passenger.

In the first Judge Dread movie, the Judges are seen to have tagged bullets—bullets that indicate who fired the round from the gun... and that's how he was falsely convicted; with falsified evidence that was beyond reproach.

It's simply our econic system which is build on exploitation - aka 'capitalism' which see as problematic.
I don't understand the perception of exploitation in this context. No one is legally forced to work for a given employer, nor one that they don't like.

Conversely though... many employers here are legally forced to hire employees that they are not comfortable with having... and to me that seems like using the law to exploit the employer. It would not surprise me if an employer would just close up shop rather than be exploited. One opens a business because they want to have their own business—not to offer out jobs; they don't owe anyone a job. The purpose of offering a job is to get what one wants or needs to be done—to be done; preferably by the best skilled candidate they can afford.

Years ago, a friend of mine was talking to a lady that had paid a few friends to finish up items for a craft sale that she was selling in. My friend asked her why [another friend of hers] wasn't there helping her out. He was told that that woman doesn't work fast enough. To which he replied, "But I thought she was your friend!? Why won't you hire your friend?", he was truly shocked (and a bit appalled); and to which she (of course) replied, that her friend cannot make enough of the items (per hour) to sell enough of them to pay for her making them in the first place—so she can't hire her. This was an epiphany.

Too many people (where I am) have not yet grasped this simple truth... and my friend was among them.

Earlier you mentioned about (owners) letting other's do one's work...but one doesn't —let— people work for them, one trades money for useful work; or it is the payer who is exploited. I've worked with people who believed that their presence onsite was reason enough to get paid; with no rationalizing that the quality of their work played a part in it. Yet why should anyone choose to pay an employee for work they can't use?

In retail, the owner has all of the debt and responsibility for the building, for the utilities, the taxes, and the insurance.. et al... and that not including the cost of inventory or cost of raw materials (and the cartage of same) for the business even have something to sell; and then they have a payroll to fulfill.

The employee shows up, [ideally] does what they agreed to do, and gets a paycheck... that's it.

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In the case of monopolies, I don't have a problem with them—in theory; but in practice they can become a problem. A company that has no competition, has only personal pride in their work, to keep them reasonable.
With competition, there is always another company to deal with instead. Monopolies are bad when one has to buy from them. I've never objected to one if the purchase was optional.

*Of course, collusion can be a problem too; but that is essentially a hidden monopoly.

The problem I have with the 'culture of the rich' in particular though, is that it often is compared to 'work' which I find misleading. Are there many rich people that work really hard? No doubt. Is all their wealth created only trough their 'personal' work though? I beg to differ.
Why would this matter?

If you buy a stereo set, it's yours, you are not beholden to the component designers, or the factory workers that produced it. Your obligation is just to pay the retail price for it, and then the stereo is yours—just as if you had made it yourself; the same with take-out food.

If a rich person pays other people to run their business for them, then they have paid the asking price, and the work is willing done by the employees—just as had they done it themselves. There is no exploitation here.

You can't make millsions or billions as a normal worker. That's simply not possible. Not with a normal occupation.
That's rarely not the case... but tell that to the Grateful Dead, MC Hammer, or Willard Wiggins—who sold his original artwork in bulk to a collector, for twenty million dollars. I understand when you mention just pointing out a few success stories... but they can, they did. If they chose to do nothing, or wait for assistance, then they would never have had the success they achieved—and to be sure, it was hard work.

So when people look up to someone like Gates or Jobs or the Google guys, that's fine. But they have always to remember they made their fortune by holding stocks and taking money to invest it in something, where other people actually work generating the profit they reap from those investments.
These are also jobs; complete with their own risks. I don't see a distinction between doing the work, and being the person who paid for all of the tools and equipment to make doing the work possible.

If a community got together to irrigate everyone's farm—and one guy paid for all of the shovels, pipeing, valves, and the heavy digging equipment, so that the others could actually do the work... should his farm not also get irrigated by the people using his parts & equipment? Should they resent doing the work on his farm for him? Should they feel entitled to all or part of his farms crops, because they dug the trenches?

**You are right, this is no longer about gun control.
So what if that community decided that they were entitled to part of his crops because they did the digging work... Shouldn't he be allowed a gun to keep them from invading his farm; stealing his crops; protect his family [and/or employees] as they worked and defended the farm?
 
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I don't understand the perception of exploitation in this context. No one is legally forced to work for a given employer, nor one that they don't like.
Are you really so sure about that part? Granted we're not living in the 19th century anymore. But hey! None of them was 'forced' either. They always had the choice to quit - but why didn't they? Because they had to make some kind of income and compromise.

You don't need always some kind of legal framework, to get people into doing something against their own interest and exploitation can also happen on consent - ask any domina and his/her sub!

For decades now, have individuals like Friedman and Heyek pushed their Neoliberalism, telling people that less regulations and a smaller state, will lead ultimately to more freedom for all where everyone can negotiate their own conditions with a maximum in felxibility. I am curious though, where is this wealth for everyone and the oportunity for everyone they're all talking about? Why aren't we there yet in this dreamworld? Why is the economy growing, while more and more people have less money at their disposal despite the fact that we're living probably in one of the most efficient economies ever. The factor at which our production today is more efficient then let us say, just 50 years ago, is staggering. Don't quote me on it, but I vaguely remember that we're 90% more efficient in production, but in comparision to that loans only grew by 10% or something.

We often forget the history of our economies, that we had those times already where profit was everything and company owners and employeers could literaly do everything they wanted without any restirctions what so ever, and it has lead to more freedom only for some. And it was definetly not a paradise. The industrialisation has actually given birth to the term of 'capitalism' and it was so bad that societies had to invent things like workers rights, unions, pensions, social security, safety standards and a lot of regulations that we're seeing now dismantled one by one.

Conversely though... many employers here are legally forced to hire employees that they are not comfortable with having... and to me that seems like using the law to exploit the employer. It would not surprise me if an employer would just close up shop rather than be exploited. One opens a business because they want to have their own business—not to offer out jobs; they don't owe anyone a job. The purpose of offering a job is to get what one wants or needs to be done—to be done; preferably by the best skilled candidate they can afford.
Though, the really big question that is looming over everything right now, is how we can keep this economic growth without runing our planet, which seems to be the case right now. And the harsh reality might be that our economic system even if it was very succesful in the past, is most probably not a sustainable system for the future on a planet with limited resources and space. The Club of Rome made some extensive studies on that already in the 1970s and some of the papers they published, predicted a lot of the effects we are seeing right now.

The point I am making, is the grand scale or the big picture if you want so, small business and small business owners are not so much the problem here, particularly as they are suffering almost the same like average employees and workers. How many small business had to close when Wallmart became really big or what kind of preasure is Amazons book selling doing to small book stores all across the country. What we do have right now, is a large consumer society with mass production of countless of products we simply throw away, even though we should really aim more towards a circular economy.

However, at the end of the day you will always have the interest of a minorty of business owners against a majority of non-business owners.

The employee shows up, [ideally] does what they agreed to do, and gets a paycheck... that's it.

If it was that simplistic then there would have never been a need for unions or workers rights where they had to 'force' employers and business owners to make concessions. Again, you're only concentrating on the micro-economic scale of things.

What you say holds merit when we talk about smaller business owners, where the employee has eventually some leverage, particularly if they bring something valuable to the table, like knowledge and experience, that no one else has. Today, the largest employers are corporations and medium sized enterprises though and they have a large pool of workers they can chose from. The basis for negotiations for the employee compared to his 'boss' is much smaller, particularly as in any large corporations, the manager who's eventually doing the negotiations with his employee is also employed by the company himself, since no one who's working at the assampley line at Ford or filling the shelves at Cosco is actually seeing the owner of the company eye to eye and they certainly don't bring anything special to the table that would give them some kind of huge advantage, hence why many of them earn less than the minimum wage. And that's sure not, because the owner of Walmart or any other large corporation is poor as fuck.

I mean at the end of the day, the business owners - as a group, will ALWAYS be in the better position compared to any potential employee. Even if this might not be true for ALL business owners, it certainly is true for many.

Why would this matter?
Because we're living in a society where people are taught that if they simply work hard enough, they might become wealthy and if they aren't, then it's entirely their fault. What we experience right now though, is that a growing part of the population is working harder while earning less. People feel more and more that the system they are living in, is rigged - what ever if that's true or not doesn't even matter what depends is how people feel about it. And this idea already starts in school where people are taught that performance equalls success, yet the majority of people are not succesfull - anymore.

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So, even though worker productivity has been increasing, the people doing the actual work aren’t seeing the benefits. Part of the reason for this is the way the wealthy make their money. Many of those at the top of the socio-economic scale make their money off of money. They aren’t actually earning wages.

Again, this is a mathematical problem. It seems to be a natural occurance of capitalist societies. The question comes down to social mobility, and what happens to society when it comes worse over time.

If a rich person pays other people to run their business for them, then they have paid the asking price, and the work is willing done by the employees—just as had they done it themselves. There is no exploitation here.



In capitalism exploitation is one of the fundamental principles, be it of resources OR the workforce by minmizing costs as much as possible while increasing profits as much as possible trough what ever means necessary. This simple, yet universal truth of a free capitalist market, is what gave birth to many social democracies:

Marxists further argue that due to economic inequality, the purchase of labor cannot occur under "free" conditions. Since capitalists control the means of production (e.g., factories, businesses, machinery) and workers control only their labor, the worker is naturally coerced into allowing their labor to be exploited.[18] Critics argue that exploitation occurs even if the exploited consents, since the definition of exploitation is independent of consent. In essence, workers must allow their labor to be exploited or face starvation. Since some degree of unemployment is typical in modern economies, Marxists argue that wages are naturally driven down in free market systems. Hence, even if a worker contests their wages, capitalists are able to find someone from the reserve army of labor who is more desperate.

AGAIN That does NOT(!) mean that this is true for every single business owners out there or that the majority of them want people to starve, but even the good ones, have to abide to the rules of a capitalist society. And the rule always is, maximise your profits and lower your costs.

That's rarely not the case... but tell that to the Grateful Dead, MC Hammer, or Willard Wiggins—who sold his original artwork in bulk to a collector, for twenty million dollars. I understand when you mention just pointing out a few success stories... but they can, they did. If they chose to do nothing, or wait for assistance, then they would never have had the success they achieved—and to be sure, it was hard work.
Harder work as in some chinese sweatshop working for less then 1 $ per hour with the risk of dieing on lung cancer due to toxic fumes or some other shitty conditions? I am pretty sure I could find someone there, would change his life with MC Hammer in a heartbeat.

You can not compare that just like that. Even if you take a musician or artist, then It would only hold merit, if he sold every single rap CD all by him self to every single costumer. I am not dimnishing the artistc quality of their work or that they have put some serious manpower in to it - albeit that sure isn't true for every rich musician out there. The proportionality with the workhours they have put in to it, compared to the amount of money they have received is in question here. The quality of artistic work is within limitation a matter of subjectivity, as there are counltess of musicians which might even show more skill than MC-Hammer, but they earn not even a faction of what he did. You can not put artistic work on a scale and measure it reliabily, but you can do that with money and manpower/worktime.

I don't see a distinction between doing the work, and being the person who paid for all of the tools and equipment to make doing the work possible.
Except one them might get paid billions and the other one pennies, which sure makes a difference to the guy getting paid in pennies for his labor.
 
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The Gun is Good.

Well when they control guns, be sure to control the knives and crowbars because I am sure the killing won't stop. I lived through a home invasion and I am glad I had my gun in hand because it saved my family. Had I waited on the Good Ol Johnny Law to come, I'd probably be like that guy from Law abiding Citizen.

True they took my Glock away till the case was cleared but it was swiftly ruled as self defense and I walked and the assailants didn't.

Lesson I took from this, police are good, but they are not swift and a lot can happen in five minutes. Just like when I was down range in Afghanistan and Iraq, the real fighting happens in minutes but feels like an eternity.

If we left the guns solely in the hands of police and government we can count on either slow response or genocide. Or maybe some of you think history doesn't repeat itself and governments should be trusted.
 
The Gun is Good.

Well when they control guns, be sure to control the knives and crowbars because I am sure the killing won't stop. I lived through a home invasion and I am glad I had my gun in hand because it saved my family. Had I waited on the Good Ol Johnny Law to come, I'd probably be like that guy from Law abiding Citizen.

True they took my Glock away till the case was cleared but it was swiftly ruled as self defense and I walked and the assailants didn't.

True. You catch intruders in your house, you can turn them into hamburger. Even if you don't catch them immediately, if you for example tag them in the driveway or something.

Obviously a scene like that with a burglary etc. is totally messed up and such criminals need to be brought to justice etc. Too bad that it has to be vigilante justice.

I'm glad you're ok man.

Lesson I took from this, police are good, but they are not swift and a lot can happen in five minutes. Just like when I was down range in Afghanistan and Iraq, the real fighting happens in minutes but feels like an eternity.

If we left the guns solely in the hands of police and government we can count on either slow response or genocide. Or maybe some of you think history doesn't repeat itself and governments should be trusted.

I'm not a big friend of cops personally, never had any problems with them but they won't help you, or many (any?) people. Having said that they are needed in a society. Maybe one day US and all nations will have better cops.

There are 'pipelines' of illegal guns leading into NYC and other big metropolitan cities in US. I don't see what the problem is with cutting off these transportation lines and reducing the number of all guns in a society.
 
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