Gun Control

So what does that even have to do with the concept that dangerous devices at the service of civilians being regulated as conducting to outright bans?

Hell the other scenarios you are putting forawrd are such a sideways tangent it's kinda funny.
 
That's your opinion and you're welcome to have it. But that doesn't mean everyone else in this thread should just bend over & take it.

Your portrayal of self-defense shootings is also extremely simplistic.

Which opinion? That lawmakers are justified in making laws for the collective security of the majority of citizens? If you think that's unreasonable then I don't know what to tell you. That's how government is meant to operate.

If you disagree with my portrayal, which honestly is just based on law enforcement material, then say why, don't just call it into question and then shove on.

Because they consider it their right as a citizen and subjectively value the positive effects more than the negative effects?

Why does their right as a citizen to own a gun carry more weight than other people's rights as citizens to not get shot?

That's wrong in my country, at least.
The vast majority of firearms used in crime are:
- Converted "alarm pistols" made to fire real ammunition.
- Smuggled from the eastern block & balkan.
- Improperly "demilitarized/deactivated" weapons which were sold as display pieces and were then reactived.

Between 1600 and 2100 guns are stolen in Belgium per year according to this, which looks as though it forms a substantial contribution to your illegal gun market given the amount of guns that are illegally traded every year over there. The same document also says that improvised or illicitly manufactured guns are an extremely small source of illegal guns by comparison. Granted you have specific problems with illegal military guns coming up through the Balkans.

I don't think that is the case. I think that it wouldn't matter if there was a gun available or not; in absence of a gun they would use a knife—or a spoon if they want the other person dead.

In (most) prisons, they don't allow the inmates to have guns... but the murders still happen. A prison is a good microcosm for the US with a hard gun ban; and technically even without one, as the authorities are all armed and the residents are not (but make due).

It is not a gun culture that is the problem, rather... it is the willingness to kill over a dispute—and that is a bad parenting issue.

Prison death figures would look quite different if inmates had access to guns rather than spoons, I would wager.

Maybe it's worth considering whether both of the things mentioned are problems.

The issue (among others) in this country is that mental-health and related issues are hugely stigmatized, and if you're shown to have any you're ostracized from the get-go. Unless you're a celebrity of course, at which point your hoards of followers will send you heart emojis so long as you continue entertaining them.

Every school shooter has some cocktail of mental problems. Be it being a loner, being bullied, being a schizophrenic, etc. You can lobby and introduce as much legislature as you can conjure up for gun control and it still won't address the core issue of the problem. There is _zero_ interest in this country in helping advance mental-health relief for those that need it. Look no further than our VA which is a JOKE for Veterans that struggle with PTSD.

Further, in order to address the _entire_ issue of gun related problems you have to be wiling to invest in the socio-economic problems that cause gun related crime (unrelated to school shootings). Detroit is practically a meme at this point. It's a band-aid solution to crime that isn't even caused by legal weaponry. The communities that are rife with crime all suffer from the same tell-tale issues. Shit schools. Shit community services. Shit community outreach. Shit community engagement.

I certainly am not about to disagree that addressing the underlying socio-economic and health issues which provide the impetus behind most violent crime is worthwhile. I think that almost goes without saying - it should be a primary focus for basically any government in any country at any given time.

Gun law is really not designed to reduce crime, nor is doing so is even its stated purpose. It's simply a pragmatic approach to the fact that crime can never be eliminated entirely; it's there to reduce the risk of violent crime causing fatalities, nothing more. Having multiple approaches to solving the same problem is not necessarily redundant.
 
It's not pragmatic at all because it essentially equates to taking toys away from crying children so they don't hurt each other without trying to figure out why they're crying in the first-place. It's basically a feed them shit and keep them in the dark policy. Nobody disagrees that crazies shouldn't have guns, but the reality is that even the strictest gun laws are complete shit at stymying the problem. I already have to do a handstand while taking a piss just for owning an AR-15 in California.
 
It's not pragmatic at all because it essentially equates to taking toys away from crying children so they don't hurt each other without trying to figure out why they're crying in the first-place. It's basically a feed them shit and keep them in the dark policy. Nobody disagrees that crazies shouldn't have guns, but the reality is that even the strictest gun laws are complete shit at stymying the problem. I already have to do a handstand while taking a piss just for owning an AR-15 in California.

If by "the problem" you mean people wanting to kill each other, then yes, gun laws are shit at preventing that. If you mean people being able to shoot one another, then they're actually very effective at stopping that problem.
 
Would you give a toddler a bucket of legos to play with? Wouldn't you rather, first wait for your child to be older, for you to teach him how to safely play with them and for them not to leave them spread all over the ground before you let them play with them on a regular basis? And if your kid has mental issues where they shove the lego pieces up their nose wouldn't you take the bucket of legos away from them? or if your kid expresses a desire to buldgeon another kid with the bucket that you would take notice and not let the kid get any blunt objects until you can solve the cause of such behavior?
 
Nobody disagrees that crazies shouldn't have guns
The thing is that gun control avocados believe since you don't want to ban guns, you support crazies having guns and killing people. It's a compromise, you give up your rights and then they feel smug until the next bad thing happens and they come knocking on the door asking for more rights so they can sleep at night.
Would you give a toddler a bucket of legos to play with? Wouldn't you rather, first wait for your child to be older, for you to teach him how to safely play with them and for them not to leave them spread all over the ground before you let them play with them on a regular basis? And if your kid has mental issues where they shove the lego pieces up their nose wouldn't you take the bucket of legos away from them? or if your kid expresses a desire to buldgeon another kid with the bucket that you would take notice and not let the kid get any blunt objects until you can solve the cause of such behavior?
What the fu....
 
Would you give a toddler a bucket of legos to play with? Wouldn't you rather, first wait for your child to be older, for you to teach him how to safely play with them and for them not to leave them spread all over the ground before you let them play with them on a regular basis? And if your kid has mental issues where they shove the lego pieces up their nose wouldn't you take the bucket of legos away from them? or if your kid expresses a desire to buldgeon another kid with the bucket that you would take notice and not let the kid get any blunt objects until you can solve the cause of such behavior?

Yes and you're illustrating both steps a responsible parent would take. In the actual 1:1 application of a policy-maker addressing the same issue, they would only take away the bucket of legos and let them continue to cry.
 
And yet again, nobody has argued for total ban of guns. Which is what you guys keep trying to steer the discussion towards.
 
I think at this point Walpknut just argues against stuff for the sake of doing so.
 
Or you guys are willfully misrepresenting the stance of gun control advocates? Because you guys keep insisting how everything leads to total ban of guns.

BigguyCIA, your stance is that you agree, and think that certain people shouldn't get access to guns be it becuase they lack the responsability or have mental issues, but a the same time you don't want anything to be done to get to that because of Slippery slope falacies.
 
BigguyCIA, your stance is that you agree, and think that certain people shouldn't get access to guns be it becuase they lack the responsability or have mental issues, but a the same time you don't want anything to be done to get to that because of Slippery slope falacies.

Wrong. I want things to be done addressing the issues causing them. We've already reformed gun laws several times and it's not doing anything to stifle the problem. Gun reform is a shitty scapegoat conjured up by legislators and bleeding-hearts that aren't affected by gun control laws. It's a two way street.
 
but a the same time you don't want anything to be done to get to that because of Slippery slope falacies.
I don't give a hoot if this was posted before. this calls for The Cake.
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[/spoilers]
 
Because the laws keep being pretty lax in general in the US. Also nobody is saying it will be a solve all solution, there are still other things to do like in my Bucket of legos analogy.

My point is that you guys keep trying to steer the conversation to it being either do nothing or absolute baning of every gun as the only two options.
If someone comes here and says "All guns should be banned because it's a barbaric practice to own them!" I would side with you and call the person a self righteous moron, but nobody so far has done it. I am ignoring whatever Mutantscalper posts tho.

I don't give a hoot if this was posted before. this calls for The Cake.
949.png
[/spoilers]

That has to be the worst visual analogy I've ever seen in my life. Congrats.
 
Wrong. I want things to be done addressing the issues causing them. We've already reformed gun laws several times and it's not doing anything to stifle the problem. Gun reform is a shitty scapegoat conjured up by legislators and bleeding-hearts that aren't affected by gun control laws. It's a two way street.

The problem isn't that gun laws don't work (they work well in pretty much every developed country which isn't the US). The problem is that you guys aren't doing it properly. Implementing state restrictions when you have multiple neighbouring states with hardly any restrictions is completely pointless. State borders do nothing to stop circulation of guns. The law needs to be addressed federally.
 
Because that appears to be the only direction we seem to be headed in. California already banned the sale of rifles that are above .22 calibre. I basically squeezed a purchase in a month before the ban went into effect. I also can't buy ammo online anymore - I have to go to the local gunsmith and place an order there. How much more gun legislation does California need to pass until the surburban housewife can rest assured that the local psychopath has to resort to driving their car into crowds of high-school kids over gunning them down. We'll be talking about liability insurance for automotive owners soon enough.

The problem isn't that gun laws don't work (they work well in pretty much every developed country which isn't the US). The problem is that you guys aren't doing it properly.

I'd look at the level of education and communal involvement in these developed countries first. The implication is essentially that these denizens are a one step away from shooting each other, but thankfully a gun law is in place which dissuades them.
 
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If automotive owners get into accidents they get penalized and if you run around uninsured you get fined. Would you like people going around the city uninsured?
 
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