Dr Fallout
Centurion
I still doubt it. The quote was used to represent how little things had changed even after nuclear war, while Bethesda thinks it means war never changes, and that's all.
Hearing "War never changes" in Fallout 4 is so cringeworthy.
- Thread starter Knight In Leather Armor
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Ragemage
Wept for Zion
Meanwhile in one of the most beautiful and iconic endings in gaming, which came out nearly FOUR YEARS before this game, we have this quote: "It's said war - war never changes. Men do, through the roads they walk. And this road... has reached its end." -Ulysses
So even though we basically have the end-all be-all towards the serie's most iconic catchphrase, Bethesda had to go and rape that tear-jerking moment too. :/ Fuck Bethesda, I'm going back to play Lonesome Road again.
So even though we basically have the end-all be-all towards the serie's most iconic catchphrase, Bethesda had to go and rape that tear-jerking moment too. :/ Fuck Bethesda, I'm going back to play Lonesome Road again.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
I didn't like Lonesome Road, but damn, that ending was one of the best. The worst of the DLC endings for me was Honest Hearts, the best Old World Blues. I love the explanation of the term, and how it has another meaning. Dead Money was good, but it repeated too much of the intro for me.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
I like Lonesome Road because it does the whole "shooty shooty bangbang" thing Bethy tried to do with FO4 correctly. The enemies are tough, they're gruesome, and honestly they're pretty horrifying. More than once I've had almost all my limbs crippled from a single fight with the skinned men, and I'm level 30. It's a great challenge, and it should be, since it's canonically one of the last things to do in the game. I also like the little secrets in it, like the most powerful deathclaw. That damn deathclaw is tough as nails but so rewarding to fight if you're an unarmed character.
And Honest Hearts is super short, yeah, I get that, but the scenery, the backstory, the characters, it's all so beautiful. I just wish there was more to do there, I liked every single character in that DLC, especially Daniel. I go there a lot though even after I beat it just because of how gorgeous it is, especially with the Nevada Skies mod.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
I just don't like shooters, especially with the Bethesda engine. I also liked Honest Hearts, but it was too short. Might try it again with Nevada skies though.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
Lonesome Road has the elements of a "shoot n' loot" but I think the horrifying atmosphere, the frightening enemies, and Ulysses' sensual voice narrating everything you did just made it feel more like a.. I don't even know what to compare it to. Open world Resident Evil game? The good ones. Open World Resident Evil 2. It just gave off a real horror atmosphere, more so than Dead Money to me honestly, and I just love it.
You should try HH with Nevada Skies, definitely! It really does make everything beautiful. First thing you should do is look for one of those cliffs you use with Follows-Chalk's perk, stand at the peak of it, and just gaze out over the horizon. Make sure your time in-game is set to 4 PM so you can see the gorgeous purple hues!
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Actually I agree, Lonesome Road was more scarier then Dead Money... especially in the tunnels... oh god... I hate tunnelers. However Dead Money for me was way more well written, with more interesting characters.
Yeah, sure okay. Can't wait to be honest now... I love the setting of Honest Hearts. All it needs is more trees...
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
To be fair, that's because Lonesome Road only has 1 character, Ulysses. While Ulysses is extremely well done in how he's an antithesis to our Courier, he's still only one man. Dead Money meanwhile gives us 5 well-written fantastic characters to work with. We can only talk to Ulysses, and we don't meet him in person until the very end. We work together and form very strong bonds (for me anyway) with 4 of the 5 characters in Dead Money. Only person we only interact with via voice and not meeting face-to-face like Ulysses in Dead Money is Elijah. Actually I wonder how many comparison points there are between Elijah and Ulysses? Probably a lot.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Yeah, Dead Money is also more personal because you get to know a smaller group more intimately. Probably a lot, on purpose most likely.
Practicat
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
I was reading some of Josh's entries on his Tumblr page (http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/), and I thought the most recent one responding to a question on the depiction of the Mormon faith in Honest Hearts is relevant to the current discussion. Here are the question and Josh's response:
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
As someone who grew up in and still has many ties to the Mormon faith/culture, I've always been impressed by their depiction in Honest Hearts and have wondered who was responsible. I have always thought that the Wasatch Front Mormons would be particularly well adapted for apocalyptic events given the voluntary and clear chain of command they have in place and their worship of their pioneer ancestors. Was someone on the team Mormon, or had someone read Folk of the Fringe by Orson Scott Card?
Thank you. I’m glad you liked it.
I believe there are no gods and was not raised in any religious tradition, but it’s virtually impossible to study medieval and early modern European history without learning a fair amount about Christianity as well. At one point I considered getting a degree in religious studies to complement my BA in history but, well, I was a bad student and lazy.
While different denominations of Christianity hold (sometimes radically) different beliefs about the details of Christian soteriology, it is commonly held that there is no sin so great that God’s love and Christ’s salvation cannot overcome it. Unforgivable sin is often described as what Aquinas called despair (“desperatio”,Summa Thelogicae, Secunda Secundae, Q. 20) – the belief that one’s own wickedness is greater than the power of the divine to forgive it.
Joshua Graham is someone who succumbed to despair but managed to pull himself back to faith. However, at the time the Courier meets him, Joshua has not fully come to terms with the true nature of his sins – another vital component in Christian spiritual salvation. Honest Hearts is both about how the Courier helps Joshua be true to himself (or not) and about how these broken tribes maintain their identities and beliefs under such difficult circumstances. The story of Randall Clark is about the Survivalist spending a lifetime struggling with the consequences of his actions (and inaction) the subsequent guilt, self-loathing, regret, and an eventual coming to terms with himself. Living mostly alone for many years and without any apparent faith in the divine, his journal is his only therapy/confessional and his conscience is his only salvation.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
After I reading it I felt it expressed, simply put, the depth and quality of storytelling that I wish to see again in Fallout, but unfortunately will probably not happen with a Bethesda Fallout game.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
As someone who grew up in and still has many ties to the Mormon faith/culture, I've always been impressed by their depiction in Honest Hearts and have wondered who was responsible. I have always thought that the Wasatch Front Mormons would be particularly well adapted for apocalyptic events given the voluntary and clear chain of command they have in place and their worship of their pioneer ancestors. Was someone on the team Mormon, or had someone read Folk of the Fringe by Orson Scott Card?
Thank you. I’m glad you liked it.
I believe there are no gods and was not raised in any religious tradition, but it’s virtually impossible to study medieval and early modern European history without learning a fair amount about Christianity as well. At one point I considered getting a degree in religious studies to complement my BA in history but, well, I was a bad student and lazy.
While different denominations of Christianity hold (sometimes radically) different beliefs about the details of Christian soteriology, it is commonly held that there is no sin so great that God’s love and Christ’s salvation cannot overcome it. Unforgivable sin is often described as what Aquinas called despair (“desperatio”,Summa Thelogicae, Secunda Secundae, Q. 20) – the belief that one’s own wickedness is greater than the power of the divine to forgive it.
Joshua Graham is someone who succumbed to despair but managed to pull himself back to faith. However, at the time the Courier meets him, Joshua has not fully come to terms with the true nature of his sins – another vital component in Christian spiritual salvation. Honest Hearts is both about how the Courier helps Joshua be true to himself (or not) and about how these broken tribes maintain their identities and beliefs under such difficult circumstances. The story of Randall Clark is about the Survivalist spending a lifetime struggling with the consequences of his actions (and inaction) the subsequent guilt, self-loathing, regret, and an eventual coming to terms with himself. Living mostly alone for many years and without any apparent faith in the divine, his journal is his only therapy/confessional and his conscience is his only salvation.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
After I reading it I felt it expressed, simply put, the depth and quality of storytelling that I wish to see again in Fallout, but unfortunately will probably not happen with a Bethesda Fallout game.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
Very interesting quote from Josh Sawyer. I now find Honest Hearts even more on a high pedestal considering the main designer for it isn't even religious yet he put so much care and effort into protraying the Mormon faith and Christianity post-war despite not even believing in it. So many times I've seen writers do a hackneyed job with religion being protrayed in their games, either writing it off as stupid/silly/absurd/meant only for idiots/etc such as in The Witcher 1, but in Honest Hearts it's all respectful, but it's also left to the player's choice. You can be completely condescending to Joshua and Daniel about their beliefs, or you can say that you think their beliefs sound nice and want to know more about it. I think that's very nice.
In other words, I just really like how Obsidian gives you a choice in placing a religious stake in the game. Your character might decide he/she likes religion and wants to give it a try, they may think it's really stupid and tell the believers so, or they may just stay neutral and not really comment on it. Neither the stance of Athiesm nor Christianity is imposed or forced onto the player's character, it's entirely up to them on how their character reacts to it. Nowadays it seems like if religion isn't being ridiculed in a video game, it's only there as a flavor text for your character's backstory, such as in Wasteland 2. So I like how it was used here and how what you say will affect how Daniel and Joshua treat you for the rest of the DLC.
Lanfear
Mildly Dipped
The use of religion was quite understated in Honest Hearts given the nature of the story. Obsidian staffs a lot of writers who are clever enough not to make you feel like you're being bludgeoned over the head by whatever message they're trying to convey.
Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
Well Obsidian probably has a fair amount of Mormon staff members or, staff members of Mormon heritage or, writers that understand how to show respect to different cultures.
Anyway there's an essay that pretty accurately sums up Bethesda's misunderstanding of the 'War Never Changes' quote, here it is:
Anyway there's an essay that pretty accurately sums up Bethesda's misunderstanding of the 'War Never Changes' quote, here it is:
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Hmm, now I want to find out the Survivalist's story. And I love how respectful Obsidian was to Mormons, who are usually (I admit, with good reason sometimes) ridiculed.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
Unlike someone like Anthony "Cuck Lord" Burch who just beats you over the head with his messages and politics until you die of blunt force trauma. "Hur dur! Misogyny and homophobia is bad! Dur! And the average male game is a stupid shit lord! Hur dur!"
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Dr Fallout
Centurion
That bad? What games did he 'do'.Unlike someone like Anthony "Cuck Lord" Burch who just beats you over the head with his messages and politics until you die of blunt force trauma. "Hur dur! Misogyny and homophobia is bad! Dur! And the average maler game is a stupid shit lord! Hur dur!"
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
Borderlands 2 and the Pre-Sequel. With Borderlands 2 he was a little more restrained but would sneak in and do little SJW digs now and then. With the Pre-Sequel he went full blown SJW and would just beat you over the fucking head. Cretins like Burch are a poison on the industry.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Ah... yeah I noticed that. Is that all? Because that's not very impressive.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
He also stated on Twitter that Gamer Gaters are no better then people who try to legitimize child porn and also recently stated that Gearbox are from now on only going to be hiring people from "marginalized" demographics. Again I am beating a dead horse but God does that asshole make me mad! Beating someone over the head with your politics isn't a good way to send a message, a lesson that Burch has yet to grasp.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
...
Yeah okay, he's a fucking idiot. He should go to Obsidian. They'll teach him well.