Holy Shit

[UncannyGarlic]

No, this is more like idol worship. Idol being poop in this case. That car needs to be WASHED!!!

Christians (and all other Abrahamic religions) == idol worshipers

Actually, it bugs me when Catholics are into icon veneration. Comes of very, er, Eastern Orthodox.
I think Dawkins called the whole saints thing "the coy Catholic flirt with polytheism" (or sth. along those lines), even though it may be more to the point, when aimed at the Eastern Churches.

Yes, because no other Christian sect venerates anyone other than their one God. Oh, that's right, it's a religion based on worshiping a man named Jesus who is supposed to be God's son. Wait a second, Christianity is a monotheistic religion yet they worship three deities: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost...

Well, where I come from, bird shit is usually black and white. This is blue and orange. I just thought that it was odd, that's all.

It all depends on what they eat, I've seen plenty of white and blue and white and purple bird crap from the birds eating various berries. I'd imagine that there is white and red bird crap when birds eat strawberries and raspberries.

 

[Zeal]

It all depends on what they eat, I've seen plenty of white and blue and white and purple bird crap from the birds eating various berries. I'd imagine that there is white and red bird crap when birds eat strawberries and raspberries.

It seems we have an expert.

just teasing, i completely agree, that was also my initial though. I see a lot of white and black ones too, but those are always from the same birds, city sparrows and pidgeons.

 

[UnidentifiedFlyingTard]

I want to sneak over there in the middle of the night and wash it off.

 

[maximaz]

Christians (and all other Abrahamic religions) == idol worshipers

Say what? I don't know what you're talking about but I meant it in the traditional sense. Idol worship is the worship of an object or an image that is not a monotheistic God. That is what I think is the most common definition.

Webster dictionary:

the worship of idols; the worship of images that are not God.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Say what? I don't know what you're talking about but I meant it in the traditional sense. Idol worship is the worship of an object or an image that is not a monotheistic God. That is what I think is the most common definition.

They are idol worshipers in all senses of the word. In the literal sense of the word, they worship crucifixes, sculptures of Jesus, and, depending on how liberal you want to be with the words "idol" and "worship", their own holy buildings (Churches and Cathedrals, though it's more of an indirect form of worship) and various religious objects (rosaries [prayer beads], holy book). Some Catholics also worship statues and other images of saints and Mary. Point is, they are all idol worshipers.

That said, not all (or even most) Christian worship requires an idol but most is directed at/through an idol.

 

[maximaz]

Say what? I don't know what you're talking about but I meant it in the traditional sense. Idol worship is the worship of an object or an image that is not a monotheistic God. That is what I think is the most common definition.

They are idol worshipers in all senses of the word. In the literal sense of the word, they worship crucifixes, sculptures of Jesus, and, depending on how liberal you want to be with the words "idol" and "worship", their own holy buildings (Churches and Cathedrals, though it's more of an indirect form of worship) and various religious objects (rosaries [prayer beads], holy book). Some Catholics also worship statues and other images of saints and Mary. Point is, they are all idol worshipers.

That said, not all (or even most) Christian worship requires an idol but most is directed at/through an idol.

Well yes, some Christians do but that's not what you said. All Abrahamic religions are all denominations of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. I know for certain that some of them worship only God and nothing else, not even depictions of God as some don't even allow them.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Well yes, some Christians do but that's not what you said. All Abrahamic religions are all denominations of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. I know for certain that some of them worship only God and nothing else, not even depictions of God as some don't even allow them.

Fair enough, but according to the old testament (according to wikipedia), idol worship is considered something different within Abrahamic religions (basically it's anything other than a strict monotheistic religion if I understand correctly). I can't really speak for Islam, I don't know enough about it, but I'd argue that having a holy symbol or any object which you pray through constitutes idol worship and Judaism has the Star of David. All Abrahamic religions have the profits, which are lesser deities/heroes by another name, and either have or await a messiah (who is just a step below their most powerful deity), so they aren't really monotheistic (which is what I understood their definition of idol worship to be).

 

[maximaz]

Fair enough, but according to the old testament (according to wikipedia), idol worship is considered something different within Abrahamic religions (basically it's anything other than a strict monotheistic religion if I understand correctly). I can't really speak for Islam, I don't know enough about it, but I'd argue that having a holy symbol or any object which you pray through constitutes idol worship and Judaism has the Star of David. All Abrahamic religions have the profits, which are lesser deities/heroes by another name, and either have or await a messiah (who is just a step below their most powerful deity), so they aren't really monotheistic (which is what I understood their definition of idol worship to be).

Some definitely do pray to icons and statues but others don't. If you take Islam for example, which I know the most about since I am Muslim, you do not follow anything other than God and you do not pray to or through anything. When one converts to Islam, the vow that he must announce specifically states that he will not equal anything or anyone to God.

There are prophets (profit is something else) and they are respected, not worshiped or equaled to God in any way. They were not deities, they were people that were ordered to deliver a message at some point in their lives. They are not worshiped in any way. I respect and obey my parents for example but I don't worship them, just like I don't worship Adam or Jesus or Mohammad, I just respect and acknowledge that they were prophets (i.e. their messages were indeed sent to them by God). There were thousands of prophets most of whom are not even known by name.

As far as the Star of David, Jews don't worship that either. They don't consider it Godly and they don't pray to it. Muslims have the moon and a star as the symbol of Islam, but it actually means nothing. In fact, it predates Islam and has no religious meaning whatsoever. It identifies mosques so that people know that they are mosques, that's all the significance they have. Star of David also is a symbol for Jews that does have some meaning but not something to be worshipped or anything. In Judaism, it signifies the 7 cycles of creation but it was never really a holy sign or even an important sign, even though they were branded with it by nazis, it became really important mainly when the state of Israel was created, as a sign of their return to Palestine. For them, whatever and whoever is in some way religiously peculiar, is that way as a service to God (God made them that way for his purpose).

Idol worshipping would mean that they actually pray to those symbols or individuals and think that they themselves possess some divine power.

I definitely agree with you that some Christians do indeed worship crosses and other objects and they indeed qualify as idol worshipers but there are denominations of Christianity that don't, and for them the cross is a symbol of sacrifice in the name of faith. Therefore, to say that all Abrahamic religions are idol worshipers is really stretching and bending the definition of idol worship. By that definition, anyone who respects anyone (parents, historical figure, artist, some hero or whatever) is an idol worshiper. Employees of Apple are idol worshipers since they have a symbol, everyone on this site is an idol worshiper because they are fans of Fallout.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Idol worshipping would mean that they actually pray to those symbols or individuals and think that they themselves possess some divine power.

You mean like how Salah, the Muslim ritual prayer that must be preformed five times a day and is a ritual in which Muslims focus on God through the Kaaba? That is, after all, what most idol worship is, focusing prayers through an idol or symbol to a deity. There's also the Black Stone which, if I'm not mistaken, is the true aim (as in literal direction) of Salah thus the actual intermediary. If it's not an intermediary, why do you have to face it to pray? Why can you not always simply pray directly to Alah irregardless of the direction you face? It's idol worship, the idol is different as it's a stone (encased in silver I might add) rather than a physical representation of a being, and the customs are different but most idol worship is done through different customs and rituals.

Of course it depends on what you consider an idol, does an idol have to actually resemble the being being worshiped or is it simply a device through which prayers are channeled? Weren't their Idolters described as worshiping "sticks and stones" in the Tanakh?

 

[Deleted member 53669]

Religious debate.

Great.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w[/youtube]

 

[Crni Vuk]

As far as the Star of David, Jews don't worship that either. They don't consider it Godly and they don't pray to it. Muslims have the moon and a star as the symbol of Islam, but it actually means nothing. In fact, it predates Islam and has no religious meaning whatsoever. It identifies mosques so that people know that they are mosques, that's all the significance they have. Star of David also is a symbol for Jews that does have some meaning but not something to be worshipped or anything. In Judaism, it signifies the 7 cycles of creation but it was never really a holy sign or even an important sign, even though they were branded with it by nazis, it became really important mainly when the state of Israel was created, as a sign of their return to Palestine. For them, whatever and whoever is in some way religiously peculiar, is that way as a service to God (God made them that way for his purpose).

In medieval times the Star of David was also used by Christians in Europe. But that just by the way. It only loost over the time its meaning to it.

One should also not forget the roots of Christianity which is the midle east and all 3 religions from Islam, to Jewish and Christian are seen as "abrahamitic religions" and its not surprising that those 3 big ones are not the "only" abrahamitic religions.

Actualy if you even want to see it that way Christianity was once seen (if that is now correct or not is a different question) as sect of Jewish believings

 

[Public]

WTF? Religious people are becoming dumb and dumber every year. The second Medieval Ages are coming!

Wonder if one of those bird shits are in shape of something holy.

 

[victor]

Religious debate.

Great.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w[/youtube]

The only funny part about this is how horribly wrong he is about the history of Man and religion.

 

[maximaz]

You mean like how Salah, the Muslim ritual prayer that must be preformed five times a day and is a ritual in which Muslims focus on God through the Kaaba? That is, after all, what most idol worship is, focusing prayers through an idol or symbol to a deity. There's also the Black Stone which, if I'm not mistaken, is the true aim (as in literal direction) of Salah thus the actual intermediary. If it's not an intermediary, why do you have to face it to pray? Why can you not always simply pray directly to Alah {"Irregardless"? Seems I've been a little "irradiated".} of the direction you face? It's idol worship, the idol is different as it's a stone (encased in silver I might add) rather than a physical representation of a being, and the customs are different but most idol worship is done through different customs and rituals.

Of course it depends on what you consider an idol, does an idol have to actually resemble the being being worshiped or is it simply a device through which prayers are channeled? Weren't their Idolters described as worshiping "sticks and stones" in the Tanakh?

A lot of people think that but Muslims do NOT pray to or through Kaaba, they pray in the direction of Kaaba. There is a big difference, as Kaaba itself is not considered to be divine. You don't think about it or mention it in the prayers, you face it because it is the earliest worship place built by a prophet (we believe it was built by Abraham) and therefore the most original known place of worship. An important fact to note is that Muslims used to pray toward the mosque al-Aqsa in Jerusalem so Kaaba itself doesn't have special powers on its own. If someone picks up Kaaba and moves it to France, Muslims will continue to pray in the direction they pray now. Here is a clearer explanation if interested.

Also important to note is that if you don't know which direction it is, you can pray in any direction you want and your prayer will be as valid. It's a part of the prayer, which is done a specific way to provide structure and enable Muslims to pray together.

And any prayer is a ritual. If you simply say things to God before bed it is as much a ritual as if you kneel.

The black stone you mentioned is not in any way divine either. Prophet Mohammad said that the stone was sent for Abraham and Ishmael to mark the precise location to build the Kaaba. For awhile I didn't even know there was any such stone and I know muslims who don't. There is no structure, object, or person in Islam that's considered divine or is believed to possess divine powers.

Actualy if you even want to see it that way Christianity was once seen (if that is now correct or not is a different question) as sect of Jewish believings

That's the point though. All three religions come from the same one. Jesus is the main difference between Christianity and Judaism really. The same thing with Islam, they accept everyone from Adam to Abraham to Moses to Jesus but they also accept Mohammad. It is more similar to Christianity than most people realize.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

That's the point though. All three religions come from the same one. Jesus is the main difference between Christianity and Judaism really.

Jesus is the Western Marketing Manager. (props to Carlin)

 

[Brother None]

The only funny part about this is how horribly wrong he is about the history of Man and religion.

How do you know?

 

[UncannyGarlic]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w[/youtube]

A lot of people think that but Muslims do NOT pray to or through Kaaba, they pray in the direction of Kaaba.

Ahh, now that is where it gets interesting. Catholics who pray to saints commonly pray in front of a saint's image (such as a statue or painting) but they aren't praying to or through the statue, they are praying to saint. Many pagan religions are basically the same (but to spirits and deities instead of saints) and there is no argument from the Abrahamic religions that they are not idol worshipers. The truth is that the old testament's description of idol worship is incredibly superficial and ignorant, showing a lack of understanding of what the religions and rituals actually were (keep in mind that it spoke of literally praying to idols, not through them [if I remember correctly], which very few religions [if any] do). If you apply the same level of observation to Islam and Christianity, you end up with the same classification.

If someone picks up Kaaba and moves it to France, Muslims will continue to pray in the direction they pray now.

I'm not so sure and your WikiAnswers link says that Mohammad was directed to have his followers pray toward the Kaaba, not where the Kaaba originally was. Besides which, I can guarantee you that there would be confusion and another divide amongst the sects with some choosing to pray toward to original location and some praying toward the new location.

 

[Sander]

A lot of people think that but Muslims do NOT pray to or through Kaaba, they pray in the direction of Kaaba. There is a big difference, as Kaaba itself is not considered to be divine. You don't think about it or mention it in the prayers, you face it because it is the earliest worship place built by a prophet (we believe it was built by Abraham) and therefore the most original known place of worship. An important fact to note is that Muslims used to pray toward the mosque al-Aqsa in Jerusalem so Kaaba itself doesn't have special powers on its own. If someone picks up Kaaba and moves it to France, Muslims will continue to pray in the direction they pray now. Here is a clearer explanation if interested.

Also important to note is that if you don't know which direction it is, you can pray in any direction you want and your prayer will be as valid. It's a part of the prayer, which is done a specific way to provide structure and enable Muslims to pray together.

And any prayer is a ritual. If you simply say things to God before bed it is as much a ritual as if you kneel.

The black stone you mentioned is not in any way divine either. Prophet Mohammad said that the stone was sent for Abraham and Ishmael to mark the precise location to build the Kaaba. For awhile I didn't even know there was any such stone and I know muslims who don't. There is no structure, object, or person in Islam that's considered divine or is believed to possess divine powers.

That's the theory, but worship of these kinds can (and does, just not for Islam as a whole) turn into idol worship.

Because, simply, religions change over time to accomodate new views and a changing society, and simply due to custom. This isn't necessarily by design, it's just in how people interpret their religions. Which is why you see the Pope claiming different things now than 300 years ago, for instance.

That's the point though. All three religions come from the same one. Jesus is the main difference between Christianity and Judaism really. The same thing with Islam, they accept everyone from Adam to Abraham to Moses to Jesus but they also accept Mohammad. It is more similar to Christianity than most people realize.

In both cases the new religions' manuscripts supercede the old religions' manuscripts when there are conflicts, though.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Islam accept Jesus as a prophet, but not the Son of God?

Ahh, now that is where it gets interesting. Catholics who pray to saints commonly pray in front of a saint's image (such as a statue or painting) but they aren't praying to or through the statue, they are praying to saint. Many pagan religions are basically the same (but to spirits and deities instead of saints) and there is no argument from the Abrahamic religions that they are not idol worshipers. The truth is that the old testament's description of idol worship is incredibly superficial and ignorant, showing a lack of understanding of what the religions and rituals actually were (keep in mind that it spoke of literally praying to idols, not through them [if I remember correctly], which very few religions [if any] do).

Applying a manuscript written thousands of years ago to modern religions is asinine.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Because, simply, religions change over time to accomodate new views and a changing society, and simply due to custom. This isn't necessarily by design, it's just in how people interpret their religions. Which is why you see the Pope claiming different things now than 300 years ago, for instance.

Religions and cultures also tend to absorb values and traditions from other religions and cultures as they grow. An example would be Christmas trees which were adapted from pagan rituals to work with the Christmas celebrations.

Applying a manuscript written thousands of years ago to modern religions is asinine.

Depends on the religion. Some religions have notable or even significant numbers of their organization (holy people, not regular practitioners) which admit that their mythology is just that (though they rarely use that word) and that history and science are completely seperate beasts (Catholicism has been gradually making this shift for awhile) and for them, yeah, you have a valid point. On the other hand there are also religions who (claim to) stick to the word of their holy texts and for them I think it's fair to make the comparison.
Contradictions and hypocrisy, often resulting in amusing irony for me, are everywhere and the longer an organization exists, the larger the number of those contradictions that will naturally appear. As you said, organizations (religions) naturally morph over time but acting like those changes never took place and that the organization follows the same rules and principles that it did when it was founded is a bit absurd. Heck, sometimes religions contradict themselves within their own pages. For example, Genesis is a combination of two different creation myths which results in Adam and Eve being created at the same time and Eve being created from Adams rib after Adam was created (a mythological contradiction rather than a ritualistic one).

 

[maximaz]

Ahh, now that is where it gets interesting. Catholics who pray to saints commonly pray in front of a saint's image (such as a statue or painting) but they aren't praying to or through the statue, they are praying to saint.

Then to me, those Christians who pray in front of the statues but don't think they possess any divine power themselves, are not idol worshipers. So why pagan religions are not the same?

1) Because they believe those statues to possess spirits inside them. They believe those objects themselves to have divine power within. It's not the same when you respect a church or a mosque because you pray in it or toward it, or if you respect an object because it has a significance (realizing that it is not a being and it's simply an object).

2) Because the most common definition (at least most of those I could find by Webster, Dictionary.com, etc.) classify idol worship as worshiping an object or image that is not monotheistic God.

Sure, you can end up with the same classification for any religion or even any hobby if you really get busy with the term's origin and meaning but why would you? I'm in the habit of using the meaning that's the norm.

I'm not so sure and your WikiAnswers link says that Mohammad was directed to have his followers pray toward the Kaaba, not where the Kaaba originally was. Besides which, I can guarantee you that there would be confusion and another divide amongst the sects with some choosing to pray toward to original location and some praying toward the new location.

The link didn't elaborate on the origins of the decision to pray toward Kaaba. The main point of that link is the part with the North Star, that explains why Muslims pray toward Kaaba and not to it. Early Muslims did pray toward Jerusalem though and then changed it to Kaaba. Mohammad was the one who ordered the change but the reason is not because the Kaaba is a divine object.

As far as moving the Kaaba, yea there could be confusion. A better way of making my point would be to say that if Kaaba was somehow destroyed, they would still pray in that direction. I was trying to say that it's a directional marker.

That's the theory, but worship of these kinds can (and does, just not for Islam as a whole) turn into idol worship.

Because, simply, religions change over time to accomodate new views and a changing society, and simply due to custom. This isn't necessarily by design, it's just in how people interpret their religions. Which is why you see the Pope claiming different things now than 300 years ago, for instance.

Sure it can turn into idol worship (like this video proves) and I'm not denying that it does. Sure some Muslims probably give Kaaba more significance than they should, I'm talking about religion as a whole though, not certain people. You can't say that ALL of it does though. In Islam (must bring it up again), there is a line of sins that are said to never be forgiven, called Shirq, and one of them is equating anything to God. Therefore, even if religion goes through changes, care will be taken by most (not all perhaps) to avoid it as it is highly emphasized. I see what you're saying though.

In both cases the new religions' manuscripts supercede the old religions' manuscripts when there are conflicts, though.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Islam accept Jesus as a prophet, but not the Son of God?

I would agree. They do supersede of course but you can still feel the same roots in every one. The whole Adam & Eve, Abraham, and things like that are present in each one. They aren't identical by any means but they share a lot of those important roots.

Yes, Muslims consider Jesus a prophet like Mohammad, Moses and the rest. They don't consider him the Son of God in the sense that Catholics do. I can provide a very interesting factual reason for that but only if interested. I don't want to impose any religious views.