How do communists want to enforce their ideology?

[Crni Vuk]

As a serious question to you.
How often did you had to deal with some existential crisis, in your life? You know loosing your house, sleeping a couple of months in your van/car, forced to beg for food, serious injuries from your work, because the company decided to ignore safety procedures, severe depressions that left you nearly catatonic, long hospitalisations, and such kind of stuff.

 

[Hassknecht]

As a serious question to you.
How often did you had to deal with some existential crisis, in your life? You know loosing your house, sleeping a couple of months in your van/car, forced to beg for food, serious injuries from your work, because the company decided to ignore safety procedures, severe depressions that left you nearly catatonic, long hospitalisations, and such kind of stuff.

He just finished high school, give him some time. It will all come soon enough.
And he will be pleased about it, because that's the american fucking dream right there.

 

[Throatpunch]

Sure, I get it, theft is moral because it's convenient for you.
As a serious question to you.
How often did you had to deal with some existential crisis, in your life? You know loosing your house, sleeping a couple of months in your van/car, forced to beg for food, serious injuries from your work, because the company decided to ignore safety procedures, severe depressions that left you nearly catatonic, long hospitalisations, and such kind of stuff.
He just finished high school, give him some time. It will all come soon enough.
And he will be pleased about it, because that's the american fucking dream right there.

Can we get back on topic, this is pretty much derailed now.

 

[Gonzalez]

Pretty much all of east Asia got out of poverty by having export based economies until they developed their own consumer markets. That's a far brighter example than South America, especially the epic failure that is now Venezuela.

This is almost hillarious to read. Really? Chavez made Venezuela an epic failure? The fact they are an oil export nation and now iol prices plummeted have nothing to do with their current crisis? Which only strenghtens my point, strong dependancy on export makes you weak. Before Chavez Venezuela exported cheap oil while foreign companies there filled their pockets and people was in a much, much worse shape even than with thier current crisis. Media brainwashed much? Here, get an alternative view for once, and even bother to find out how Venezuela was before Chavez at all.

And Asia? China had some of the lowest living standards because it was export oriented, it was only after the development of internal market their standards of living increased. Remember all those chinese going to work in their bikes? Now they all have cars. So you got it the other way around or someone has been bullshitting you really good. I understand you want all out our resources for yourself, but I'm not going to be bullshitted into giving them to you

I mean, seriously, in one hand we have the export based economic system, that has kept underdeveloped nations from developing for ages, and on the other hand we have the internal market based economy that has been the only one that has ever caused progress and an increase on the living standards of such nations. It really is that simple.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

This is almost hillarious to read this. Really? Chavez made Venezuela an epic failure? The fact they are an oil export nation and now iol prices plummeted have nothing to do with their current state. Which only strenghtens my point. Before Chavez Venezuela exported cheap oil while foreign companies there filled their pockets and people was in a much, much worse shape even than with thier current crisis. Media brainwashed much? Here, get an alternative view for once.

And Asia? China had some of the lowest living standards because it was export oriented, it was only after the development of internal market their standards of living increased. Remember all those chinese going to work in their bikes? Now they all have cars. So you got it the other way around or someone has been bullshitting you really good. I understand you want all out our resources for yourself, but I'm not going to be bullshitted into giving them to you

I mean, seriously, in one hand we have the export based economic system, that has kept underdeveloped nations from developing for ages, and on the other hand we have the internal market based economy that has been the only one that has ever caused progress and an increase on the living standards of such nations. It really is that simple.

There's also Japan and South Korea, which made their consumer base by exporting cheap knockoff goods, just like China did a couple of decades later. The rise of the consumer markets in China wasn't due to any government policy of making an internal market (not that there weren't any) but because the people accumulated enough surplus to want to spend it on more consumer goods. And they weren't poor because they had an export-oriented economy, they had an export-oriented economy because they were poor.

For all the "intenalizing markets", Venezuela is still surviving on oil exports, only now without toilet paper.

 

[Gonzalez]

Actually it was because of a policy of internal market. Motorized vehicles were only state owned, civilians weren't allowed to own them, and then they realized they had a market of millions to sell cars to, the same with a lot of other stuff. Korea and Japan also had simmilar policies, they were exporting but they were not only not neglecting internal markets but also encouraging them, and they were exporting manufactured goods, creating jobs that would encourage internal market in turn.

In Latin America and Africa they cannot progress because they export raw materials, instead they should export manufactures. But that's not enough, otherwise is like India making cheap clothing by kids. Money from manufacturing jobs should be spent internally, otherwise the money leaves along with the goods and you are left with nothing. This cannot happen unless internal market is promoted.

When you have internal market people inside your country purchase more, and you get revenue from purchases and sales, and that money stays in the country. Otherwise you have a capital outflow and you will always remain poor no matter how much money you make from exports.

I don't think you understand what I mean when I say export oriented market, I'm not saying one should not export, what I'm saying is one should not depend only on export or have an export oriented economy only, much less a raw materials export one. If anything is preferable to have an internal market economy only rather than an export only.

Before Chavez all the oil was exported by private companies and all the money they made they sent abroad, since they were off-shore companies, and most of the income generated left with them and almost none with the peple of Venezuela. After Chavez at least the oil revenue is circulated back into Venezuela, but you still have the problem of external market dependancy, and when something like the oil prices plummeting occurs you are left with a much diminished income, if Venezuela would have had more internal market than the impact of the oil crisis would had been left, but that's not Chavez fault, Venezuela was a raw material export economy much before him. If anything he should have done even more to develop internal market than he did.

 

[DarkCorp]

Since I'm Chinese, I will use China as my example.

In-equality isn't just a buzzword, it's a serious national problem with no quick fixes. In China, Dengs reforms and those who were like-minded, realized that it is only natural that some get richer and it will slowly spread to others. While trickle down economics doesn't really work in already developed nations, such as the U.S., it can be a godsend to developing ones.

Does that also mean swallowing ones pride and making changes on policy? Sure. Both the soviets and the chinese made adjustments to their 'communism', as they realized their version sucks donkey balls. Just like Japan got fucking owned by Commodore Perry. Instead of crying foul, the chinese and japanese bgan massive modernization efforts as they could see what the winds of change were.

When the loss of the SU hit countries like Cuba, Vietnam and N. Korea like a destructive freight train, they had to change and adopt more CAPITALISTIC policies.

Blame the gringo all you want, but at some point, it's no longer going to be an effective boogeyman.

 

[Gonzalez]

Yes, but you guys privatized after having developed a huge state owned industry already, and who created that industry? And you didn't have an elite with strong relations to the west "regulating" your growth or lack of growth. I think China has a lot to thank to communism for being where it is today, even if it was smart enough to change and adapt when needed. Not to mention China is not precisely aligned with the US either, so it changes nothing when "blaming the gringo", just like a lot of ex-soviet nations blame communism for everything wrong communism did, the capitalist west did a lot of not precisely convenient to us things in South America.

Which takes me back to we were before, communism in China played it's part, of course sooner or later they had to realize that true communism was unachievable, but it shaped China into the nation it is today. How funny it is that when communism started in China and in Russia both countries were hugely behind the rich west, and when they emerged from it they did so as some of the most influential and powerful nations worldwide.

 

[DarkCorp]

Something interesting happened, you helped me realize something. Being a WW2 winner and leech helped the SU prosper.

China was pretty shitty until Dengs reforms actually. From the end of its imperial glory days till the post Mao reforms, China really didn't get anywhere. We had the Qing, then we had the civil war/warlords, then the Japanese/warlords/civil war, then back to civil war, then the great leap forward and cultural revolution. I mean getting a nuke while millions starve and relying hopelessly on the SU isn't my definition of progress.

Mao eventually got fed up with the SU, believeing not only was the SU leeching off of China and that China WILL NOT pay back the SU, but more importantly, allying with the west.

So by all means, we did have a 'Big Bro', telling us what to do. It's more like the success came from not only ignoring the oppressor but making changes from within, even if those changes hurt our pride or having to admit that western capitalism isn't all negative.

 

[Ilosar]

The Soviet Union just generally prospered from WW2 thanks to the forced industrialisation that happened before, during and after, but also due to cannibalizing industries in Germany and China (most Manchuria), taking over vast swaths of territory with nothing the US/British could do as well as massive displacements of populations. How much of that is down to communism is, shall we say, a debatable issue.

They certainly were more ruthless in taking advantage of their victories than the Western allies were. But in the end, it's probable that the US tolerating De Gaulle acting up and sending all that juicy Marshall Plan money helped them, at least more than Stalin crushing every satellite state under the Soviet boot helped the USSR.

 

[Gonzalez]

I guess you say what you say because your country comesout of communism and starts to see the benefits of free market, and I say what I say because my country comes from being a neo-liberal capitalist paradise and in the last 12 years we started to see the the benefits of state regulated economy. Everything aims towards the middle.

Argentina used to be a capitalist paradise in the 90's, no state intervention, no regulation of the markets, free international trade, all public services privatized. We were doing everything the IMF and the US said and even asking them for advice, we were their best pupils, and it ended up like this:

 

[DarkCorp]

You bring up a good point.

Both of our home countries have experienced intense years of turmoil. I am currently reading up on the history of Argentina to see how similar our histories are.

Hmm, very interesting, must go do more research.

 

[zegh8578]

Scandinavian countries are famous for being "straight down the middle" between pesky socialism and greedy capitalism, but still nobody REALLY takes us seriously, beyond being curiousities on "most wealthy"-lists. We're like those idealist teens who everyone expects to "grow up some day"

sad thing is, that attitude is common even here, and we tend to look up to the more cynical and callous societies as being more "mature" or whatever.

 

[Gonzalez]

Careful where you get your info from, if there's something to be sure about is that everyone tells the story about this country according to their own interests.

All I can say is that, in practical terms, i've been aware of my existance in this country since the late 80's, and the last 12 years after the crisis we had a great increase in our quality of life thanks to social policies and a social oriented govenrment. And now that the liberals are back they've done fucked things up in only six months. My salary now can only pay for about half the things it could pay only a half year back, and I'm damn lucky to have a job at all. All this in spite the last govenrment left a largely disendebted nation and about 30.000 million USD in reserves (reserves in 2001 were zero). They have like zero excuses for this.

Also, I'd like to ask, @zegh8578 what are scandinavian countries economies based on? I mean, since you are doing so well, perhaps there is something we can imitate.

 

[MutantScalper]

Also, I'd like to ask, @zegh8578 what are scandinavian countries economies based on? I mean, since you are doing so well, perhaps there is something we can imitate.

Well Norway got a lucky break with the oil they found in the sea. Besides that they mostly fished a lot. Maybe that's a tip for Argies, you gotta go get that Malvinas oil. Finland and Sweden have forestry industry, mining, high tech industry and of course Finland has gaming industry (Angry Birds and Clash of Clans etc. stupid cell phone games).

 

[zegh8578]

Also, I'd like to ask, @zegh8578 what are scandinavian countries economies based on? I mean, since you are doing so well, perhaps there is something we can imitate.

Well Norway got a lucky break with the oil they found in the sea. Besides that they mostly fished a lot. Maybe that's a tip for Argies, you gotta go get that Malvinas oil. Finland and Sweden have forestry industry, mining, high tech industry and of course Finland has gaming industry (Angry Birds and Clash of Clans etc. stupid cell phone games).

The oil-factor has been a bit blown out of proportion, the money is gathered in the "oil fund" and not really spent in comparison to what is made. Norway does a lot of what Finland does, I reckon, but without having the big shiny brand (NOKIAAA!) to look to
We export a lot of fish!

You completely forgot high taxation. 30% is common
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

A whole working population, in well paid jobs, paying a third of what they make, makes for a juicy state pot, which then goes back to good quality healthcare and education.
And yes, tip top quality. (The Fox-News-based "healthcare in scandinavia is terrible, people have to wait in waiting rooms and stuff!" is of course propaganda)

 

[Dr Fallout]

Socialism= EVIL COMMEH BAZTARDS!!!
Communism= EVIL COMMEH BAZTARDS!!!

Sometimes I wonder if the 50's view on communism and socialism has never left the US.