How smart are you?

Jebus said:
How the hell could they possibly justify 40 000$? Are universities not non-profit organisations?

I'm not sure - I know in Harvard's case the university is subordinate to the Harvard Corporation, which is composed of the president of the university and six other members who are responsible for all the business and financial affairs of the university. How this affects affects their standing in the government's eyes as a non-profit/educational institue I have no idea. Perhaps other schools have similar set ups.

As to how they justify the high tutition, I also have no guess beyond the fact that plenty of people are willing to pay. What's even scarier than the tuition is the fact that H.U. has managed to accrue a 23 billion dollar endowment, a combination of donations from former students and smart investing, and they still claim that they lose money on tuitions and need government aid like any other school.
 
DirtyDreamDesigner said:
Well, mine, much like all other universities in Croatia, is 0€. Chew on that.

EDIT: I lie. There is a 10€ paperwork fee when enrolling.

We had to pay a 25€ fee! Bastards...

Actually, some 80% of students here are financially supported by the state, while the rest do have to pay for their education (albeit the ones who on account of having bad grades haven’t been able to rank themselves high enough), with the most expensive colleges being medicine – costing you around 1500 €.
 
Montez said:
Jebus said:
How the hell could they possibly justify 40 000$? Are universities not non-profit organisations?

I'm not sure - I know in Harvard's case the university is subordinate to the Harvard Corporation, which is composed of the president of the university and six other members who are responsible for all the business and financial affairs of the university. How this affects affects their standing in the government's eyes as a non-profit/educational institue I have no idea. Perhaps other schools have similar set ups.

As to how they justify the high tutition, I also have no guess beyond the fact that plenty of people are willing to pay. What's even scarier than the tuition is the fact that H.U. has managed to accrue a 23 billion dollar endowment, a combination of donations from former students and smart investing, and they still claim that they lose money on tuitions and need government aid like any other school.


So what the hell is so expensive, then? The xeroxes? Buying new computers every few years? Projection screens? Professors fees?

No matter how much 'service' they give those students, nothing could possibly, ever, cost that much. That's just crazy... The only things I could think of that really costs universities money is academic research an sich, but it would be very unfair to actually make students - by defenition not the richest tier of society - pay for anything more than their education alone.

You Americans... You're being rolled wherever you go, and you never do anything about it. I really don't get you people... They raised tuition by 50€ one or two years ago here, and there were mass students protests all over the place. Hell, they raised the price of a can of soda by fifty cents this years and even THAT made students pass a petition. What's up with you people?
 
Jebus said:
You Americans... You're being rolled wherever you go, and you never do anything about it. I really don't get you people...

I'd have to do a lot more research before I could decide if it's really worse over here than it is anywhere in Europe, but I have to admit I'm starting to get pretty bothered with things here just judging them by themselves, never mind comparing the situation to other countries. I think it's just so common over here that no one ever thinks to question it except in a superficial way, in the same way people will complain about the weather.
 
Jebus said:
No matter how much 'service' they give those students, nothing could possibly, ever, cost that much. That's just crazy... The only things I could think of that really costs universities money is academic research an sich, but it would be very unfair to actually make students - by defenition not the richest tier of society - pay for anything more than their education alone.

You Americans... You're being rolled wherever you go, and you never do anything about it. I really don't get you people... They raised tuition by 50€ one or two years ago here, and there were mass students protests all over the place. Hell, they raised the price of a can of soda by fifty cents this years and even THAT made students pass a petition. What's up with you people?

I'm pretty sure the main reason is that taxes are lower here. But that's just from the economic standpoint. I don't like it, though, because in philosophical terms I'd rather pay more taxes so more people could have educations and health care than less taxes that are used to build bombs and guns.

Sadly, our government doesn't have much of a democratic system, no matter what you call it.
 
Taxes or not taxes, 40 000$ is way more than a student could possibly cost. You could buy two cars with that money, ffs.
 
Jebus said:
Taxes or not taxes, 40 000$ is way more than a student could possibly cost. You could buy two cars with that money, ffs.

Don't I know it. My only choice is either take school really slowly over more than four years to keep the cost down or take a big loan, or both. Ugh.
 
Ha, not to bash them too much, but I just remembered something funny that might in some way account for the high tuition: The president of Harvard makes more money per year than the president of the United States.
 
Montez said:
Ha, not to bash them too much, but I just remembered something funny that might in some way account for the high tuition: The president of Harvard makes more money per year than the president of the United States.

That's the issue right there. Waste.

That, and the fact that people can afford it, so there's no impetus to lower it. Also, taxes are far lower here, and to be honest, the average college cost is half that or less, which is still manageable, even if it doesn't sound like it.
 
Pajari said:
Montez said:
Ha, not to bash them too much, but I just remembered something funny that might in some way account for the high tuition: The president of Harvard makes more money per year than the president of the United States.

That's the issue right there. Waste.

That, and the fact that people can afford it, so there's no impetus to lower it. Also, taxes are far lower here, and to be honest, the average college cost is half that or less, which is still manageable, even if it doesn't sound like it.

"People" being like, 10% of the population MAYBE? Terrible, is what that is.
 
Well, Jebus and Sander, I generally agree with you and like the system you described. But don't be too quick to come to the conclusion that achieving a "prestigious" education is only reserved for the l337 of America. Jebus, like your parents, both my mom and dad have blue collar jobs and also like you, i have worked in construction for a few years. English is my second language and i arrived to the States right before high school. The odds were certainly against me that I would make it into the university i am in now. In fact, i was rejected from Northwestern when i first applied out of high school. So i went to my next best choice school (Loyola University), got a 3.9 GPA (4.0 being all As) my first year, worked harder on the admission essays, reapplied to Northwestern and got in.
My dad went to Northwestern Law. Great school

Did'nt realize you where just down in Evanston KQX. I was born there.
 
Lazarus Plus said:
Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence

What is this, exactly?

It has to do with muscular coordination, movement and doing. In this category, people generally are more adept at sports and dance, and work better when moving. In addition, they learn better by doing things and interacting with them physically. Most dancers, gymnasts and athletes are in this category.

As for others, your posts have clearly taken a path away from the topic proposed by this thread. The detour can only be warranted by argumented discussion incited by how best can the educational system be improved to cater to diverse needs of a wide spectrum of participating subjects. The mere stating of facts does little to better the "debate". What I'd really like to see is some more "confessions" from those who haven’t done so yet. Just take a look at a few soliloquys posted erenow to get the picture. I’d really be grateful if you were to do so. Thanks.

Returning to the Multiple Intelligence theory...

with a critical view borrowed from Wikipedia:
As one would expect from a theory that redefines the definition of intelligence, one of the major criticisms of the theory is that it is ad hoc. The criticism is that Gardner is not expanding the definition of the word "intelligence"; rather, he denies the existence of intelligence, as is traditionally understood, and instead uses the word intelligence whenever other people have traditionally used the word "interest." In this view, it is intellectually dishonest to relabel all of a person's talents as "intelligences". This tactic has been criticised by Robert J. Sternberg (1983, 1991), Eysenck, 1994, and Scarr, 1985. Defenders of the M.I. theory would argue that intelligence has never been rigorously defined, thus inviting new efforts to define it.

Gardner has not settled on a single definition of intelligence. He originally defined intelligence as the ability to solve problems that have value in at least one culture, or as something that a student is interested in. However, he added a disclaimer that he has no fixed definition, and his classification is more of an artistic judgement than fact:

Ultimately, it would certainly be desirable to have an algorithm for the selection of an intelligence, such that any trained researcher could determine whether a candidate intelligence met the appropriate criteria. At present, however, it must be admitted that the selection (or rejection) of a candidate intelligence is reminiscent more of an artistic judgement than of a scientific assessment. (Gardner, Frames of Mind: The Theory of Multiple Intelligences, 1985)

One of the criticisms against M.I. theory is aimed at the underlying ideology. Gardner writes "I balk at the unwarranted assumption that certain human abilities can be arbitrarily singled out as intelligence while others cannot" (Peterson, 1997, p. D2) Critics hold that given this statement, any interest or ability is now redefined as "intelligence"; and adherents of M.I. theory can and do declare that all human beings are equally intelligent. Several logical problems are pointed out:

* Gardner doesn't prove that all people are intelligent. Rather, he states this as his assumption, and redefines the word "intelligence" such that all people are equally intelligent by virtue of his definition.
* Once someone adopts Gardner's position, the entire idea of studying intelligence is meaningless. Any ability is intelligence, thereby reducing the meaning of the word "intelligence" to "interest". In accord with this prediction, Gardner has repeatedly changed his theory; students who show an interest in nature are now deemed to have "Natural intelligence", and students interested in spirituality or religion are now deemed to have "Spiritual intelligence".
* The existence of students with any kind of handicaps proves that even in Gardner's scheme, many people cannot be equally intelligent. Sternberg and Frensch write "it seems strange to describe someone who is tone deaf or physically uncoordinated as unintelligent." In Gardner's system, people not interested in nature have zero natural intelligence, people who are deaf have zero musical intelligence, etc.

A number of articles have surveyed the use of Gardner's ideas in classrooms, and claim that there is no evidence that his ideas work in practice. This article, by Steven A. Stahl, found that most of the previous studies which claimed to show positive results had major flaws.

Among others, Marie Carbo claims that her learning styles work is based on research. [I discuss Carbo because she publishes extensively on her model and is very prominent in the workshop circuit...] But given the overwhelmingly negative findings in the published research, I wondered what she was citing, and about a decade ago, I thought it would be interesting to take a look. Reviewing her articles, I found that out of 17 studies she had cited, only one was published. Fifteen were doctoral dissertations and 13 of these came out of one university—St. John’s University in New York, Carbo’s alma mater. None of these had been in a peer-refereed journal. When I looked closely at the dissertations and other materials, I found that 13 of the 17 studies that supposedly support her claim had to do with learning styles based on something other than modality.

James Traub's article in The New Republic notes that Gardner's system has not been accepted by most academics in intelligence or teaching.

George Miller, the esteemed psychologist credited with discovering the mechanisms by which short term memory operates, wrote in The New York Times Book Review that Gardner's argument boiled down to "hunch and opinion" (p. 20). And Gardner's subsequent work has done very little to shift the balance of opinion. A recent issue of Psychology, Public Policy, and Law devoted to the study of intelligence contained virtually no reference to Gardner's work. Most people who study intelligence view M.I. theory as rhetoric rather than science, and they're divided on the virtues of the rhetoric.

Howard Gardner notes in his text, Changing minds: The art and science of changing our own and other people's minds (2004, p. 196), "As one who has thought intensively about multiple intelligences, I am more aware than most of the defiencies in that theory; yet, I am far from declaring that my own theory has been refuted or that I have adopted a new holistic, unitary, or genetically determined view of the human intellect."
Hope you've found that interesting...yawns... it's getting late. Till tomorrow then.
Cheers
 
Jebus said:
So what the hell is so expensive, then?

Like Montez, i would also need to do a lot more research on how the numbers work. But it is a fact that these schools spend a lot of money every year to improve their quality (new and better computer labs, improving campus safety (many colleges have their own police station), construction of new buildings...). Each of the 2 Chicago universities i went to have 2 campuses (campii?): one on the north shore and one in the city's downtown area. Constructing and maintaining buildings in downtown Chicago is certainly not cheep and both Loyola and Northwestern occupy several city blocks there.

Pajari said:
Tuition for in-state schools (most of them, anyway) is dirt cheap. My friend is going to school for 2 grand a semester- at a university, not a community college. Granted, he does have his own place and doesn't pay for dorms or anything, but even if he did it would still be only 4 or 5 grand a semester, which is quite manageable for most parents, or even students working part time.

It's not all that great for everyone. I was accepted to university of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, but since i was not a resident of the U.S. at the time, i had to apply as an international student. And guess what: almost $30 000 tuition with room and board. So i basically told all the State schools I've been accepted to to go fuck themselves. If i'm going to be overcharged i might as well go to a better private school. Also, while Champaign does qualify as one of the top state universities, it is still a state school and can't really compare to the Ivy league private ones (although there are certainly worse private schools).

Pajari said:
And, of course, there is community college, and to be honest the curicculum is pretty much the same as a university (except the whole associate's degree thing). And you can always transfer to a more complete school whenever you want.

Not True at all. As i said before, community colleges have a much simpler curriculum. How else can all these people finish all those degrees while balancing out part time jobs? And you cannot always transfer to better universities later. Either they won't accept you at all, or they will not accept many of your credits. You can't compare the classes you take at a community college to the classes at normal universities. The classes might share the same title, but that's about it. I'll give you an example. My cousin and I both took macroeconomics at the same time (same introductory course), but she goes to a community college while i took the class at Northwestern. She had the class from January through May, while i had it from January through March (semester system versus quarter system). Even though i had the class for a shorter time, i had much more material covered at my school than she did. While they focused mostly on general theories our class consisted of a discussion section, mathematical problems, and required 2 textbooks (one for the general theories and one which focused on specific economists). The difference was also obvious when we compared exams. While her's were all multiple choice, mine required many mathematical problems, essay questions, and graph drawing.

CCR said:
Did'nt realize you where just down in Evanston KQX. I was born there.

Yes we've been neighbors for a while now. In fact, all the schools I've attended have been on (or very close to) the same street: Sheridan road. I don't live on campus though. I'm saving money on room & board by living at home with my dad in Wilmette. But still, North Shore!!!1


Max Demian said:
As for others, your posts have clearly taken a path away from the topic proposed by this thread. The detour can only be warranted by argumented discussion incited by how best can the educational system be improved to cater to diverse needs of a wide spectrum of participating subjects. The mere stating of facts does little to better the "debate".

I thought Kharn was pretty clear about this. You can't, like, own a thread man. It moves and resolves based on its own momentum. If people don't feel like confessing their smartness, you can't make them. Right now we are actually having a real discussion.
 
Max Demian said:
Lazarus Plus said:
Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence
What is this, exactly?
It has to do with muscular coordination, movement and doing. In this category, people generally are more adept at sports and dance, and work better when moving. In addition, they learn better by doing things and interacting with them physically. Most dancers, gymnasts and athletes are in this category.

I just can't get behind that as a valid definition of intelligence. What this describes is both your neuromuscular capacities and conditioning and the "instinct" or "natural grace" of your brain's reflexes that is interpreting the complexities of motion from nothing to fact. Despite the fact that you must train muscles (muscle memory, of course) to do certain complex things, those processes are not on a higher order of thinking and cannot be counted counted as cognizance.

Just because Bruce Lee is the greatest martial artist EVER doesn't mean he has more subjective "intelligence" than Albert Einstein.
 
When we were doing the multiple intelligences theory in psychology classes in high school I always thought how well most of it can be translated to the SPECIAL system. I bet that is what Max is aiming at.
 
Lazarus Plus said:
I just can't get behind that as a valid definition of intelligence. What this describes is both your neuromuscular capacities and conditioning and the "instinct" or "natural grace" of your brain's reflexes that is interpreting the complexities of motion from nothing to fact. Despite the fact that you must train muscles (muscle memory, of course) to do certain complex things, those processes are not on a higher order of thinking and cannot be counted counted as cognizance.

Just because Bruce Lee is the greatest martial artist EVER doesn't mean he has more subjective "intelligence" than Albert Einstein.
That's because you're still thinking of a singular intelligence definition. The intelligence you're talking about here is only one aspect of many different kinds of intelligence, although perhaps one could better call this 'aptitudes' rather than intelligences.

EDIT: Max, I don't think there's that much interest here in telling everyone how smart we are. It tends to feel a lot like bragging, and for me I'd rather let what I do and say speak for me than to go out and tell people how smart I am.
 
Sander said:
As for research, high-quality research is usually a Post-Master thing.
And I'm not entirely sure as to what you mean by 'practical' research, science often also has a lot of non-practical research, especially in fields such as Maths and Computer Science.

That's why I said practical. Delft doesn't excell in non-practical research, but does so in practical. Practical post-Master?

Pajari said:
Also, the military here offers a lot of money (40k to 70k, enough to pay for all the tuition for a decent school) for college kids willing to sign up for a few years.

Yes, let's all be thankful that the draft has been replaced by fooling young naive kids into signing up by offering them money

Yay America :roll:

Jebus said:
You could buy two cars with that money, ffs.

Not two American cars :lol:

Montez said:
Ha, not to bash them too much, but I just remembered something funny that might in some way account for the high tuition: The president of Harvard makes more money per year than the president of the United States.

In Holland, we refer to the amount of money made by the prime-minister as "Balkenendes", as a form of currency. We then look at how much Balkenendes managers make a year.

Many managers make a lot of Balkenendes per year, so if Harvard is just a corporation it'd make sense.

The mayors of major cities make more than one Balkenende a year too, so it's not unusual for government officials to make more money than the PM. Why is unclear, but 't is so.

KQX said:
Like Montez, i would also need to do a lot more research on how the numbers work. But it is a fact that these schools spend a lot of money every year to improve their quality (new and better computer labs, improving campus safety (many colleges have their own police station), construction of new buildings...).

Jebus is forgetting that our schooling is in no way a free ride either. Most continental universities are, actually, technically privately owned, but the amount of government funding and control means they're practically government-owned

And the government funding is the key. The government tends to pump quite a lot of money directly and indirectly into university. Basically we're living off the backs of the working population. Which is somewhat justified. We're the future, and all, and we're pretty poor, at least most of us are.

Even our fraternities, which Sander has been referring to as corpora, get tax-exemptions, I think, though most or all of their funding is private.

Drunken students; your tax dollars hard at work.

As far as I know, at an average Dutch university, if you've studied 4-5 years and your government grants are up, you pay about 5000 EUR a year, including OV (free public transport) which you can also choose not to take.

KQX said:
It's not all that great for everyone. I was accepted to university of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, but since i was not a resident of the U.S. at the time, i had to apply as an international student. And guess what: almost $30 000 tuition with room and board.

Not a point of European superiority. The EU-countries plus Switzerland are tied together and citizens of those countries have to pay normal fees, but "foreigners" have to pay about 4 times as much as one of those citizens.

Max Demian said:
As for others, your posts have clearly taken a path away from the topic proposed by this thread. The detour can only be warranted by argumented discussion incited by how best can the educational system be improved to cater to diverse needs of a wide spectrum of participating subjects. The mere stating of facts does little to better the "debate". What I'd really like to see is some more "confessions" from those who haven’t done so yet. Just take a look at a few soliloquys posted erenow to get the picture. I’d really be grateful if you were to do so. Thanks.

Bwahahaha, hey, chippie, lay off the big words, will ya?

I am certain we will comprehend the purport of your short disquisition without a full and complete exploration of the Anglo-Saxon dictionary, yes?

That said, KQX is right, you don't own a thread by starting it. Except for the "single-topic" threads (like Say Hello, Who is More Sexy, and the Picture thread) all threads end up changing subjects at some points. Mods interfere with this *only* if the subject veers off into spam and "ruins" the thread. In this case a valid discussion is going on, albeit on a different topic than the original one.
 
Max Demian said:
Appreciate your opinion, albeit more as a critique than a genuine contribution. It would, though, be OK if this were a thread discussing the correlation between intelligence and life happiness (accomplishment), but it’s not. Although I vicariously gathered a lot of information from your previous posts, I’d still like if you would give us your own view on how intelligent (capable) you are, and the general view people make of you. That would be more helpful, as this is an introspection thread after all. Thanks

k- i scored 132 in the internet IQ test.
i studied 3 years in 2 jazz schools one of them was berklee grades average a-,
after that i went and studied nuclear and electrical engineering at the ben-guryon university for 2 years, was really bad at it, left it, went back to preforming and teaching. i still dont know if studying at the university a tough subject shows how intelligent you are, because being smart isnt about grades, maybe i'm saying that because i was a bad student.

if anyone likes jazz he can hear me and a friend playing a piece-
http://stage.co.il:8000/content/arielguez477430.pls

maybe this can show if i'm intelligent or not.
 
aegis said:
i still dont know if studying at the university a tough subject shows how intelligent you are, because being smart isnt about grades, maybe i'm saying that because i was a bad student.
IMHO there are no "tough subjects". Social sciences, languages and natural sciences all require their own kind of ..uh... cleverness and a special way of thinking, even though the times of scientific nerds with a horizon like a picture frame are over nowadays.
I agree with you on the fact that a university enrolment does not necessarily mean you're are intelligent. However, the fact that someone chooses this more intellectual way instead of another breadwinning is a sign of intelligence, not an evidence.
I've met idiots with an academic degree as well as smart garbagemen and vice versa. Education give you some hints how intelligent a person is, but it proves nothing.

if anyone likes jazz he can hear me and a friend playing a piece-
http://stage.co.il:8000/content/arielguez477430.pls

maybe this can show if i'm intelligent or not.
It shows that you're skilled in music, not how smart you are. But I remember some study coming to the conclusion that hobby musician are 5%(don't remember that exactly, could be 7%) more intelligent on the average than people of the same age and educational level who don't play an instrument. Don't nail me down to this, I just found it when googling for a music forum.
 
the fact that someone chooses this more intellectual way instead of another breadwinning is a sign of intelligence, not an evidence.
i think vice versa too, because i was stupid enough to continue my studies even though i knew i was doing it for the money.
 
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