I come here to stay sane...

[Makta]

There are 4 kinds of Fallout people now days...The F-NV fanboys

ie: me, and only me, who you've decided you have a personal hatred of because I posted a couple of admittedly hot headed threads and comments when I was bored.

and then the people with common sense like you Walpknut and a few others that actually point out all flaws/positive sides of all the games without randomly hating it for not being your fav game.

Does this include you by any chance? Because you seem as much a blinded Fallout 3 fan as you claim I am of FONV.

Actually you were far from the first one so it's not just you! And i tend to attack both sides more than i should so i'm not classified as the best group.

Allthough i am quite awesome in a evil bastard way

Whether he intends that it does or doesn't, we all know Makta qualifies. I've seen him write up some posts that show hints of him breaking away from that, but there's still ample FO3 fanboydom to overcome before I would dare to include him in the 4th category. Hell, I'd like to believe I belong in the 4th category, but as he described it, it just read like a massively self-masturbatory superior race brown nosing than an actual group of players, and I don't think I'm so "perfect" that I could own such a title. I don't think anyone is. Everybody has their bias, so even the most sane of us aren't transcendent of flaws and preferences.

F3 is actually below F1-2 and Tactics in my list. But i like/hate it as much as i like/hate NV. The difference between me and fanboys is that i don't love or hate everything about the games but i point out pros and cons in both! Wich is something people seems to have a really hard time with.
"xx sucks because xx got xx! But xx2 is perfect even if it has the same xx as xx had!" That is what i tend to see in comparisons of the 2 games and that is a reason why i "brow nose" people who can actually judge things without being biased even if they dissagree with me!

And my self-masturbatory superior race is better than your non mastubatory inferior race!

 

[Akratus]

How is NV not clearly superior to Fallout 3?

 

[woo1108]

are there any good point of fo3?
or are there anything new?

 

[Earth]

are there any good point of fo3?
or are there anything new?

Oh god let's not start another one of "those" threads.

The difference between me and fanboys is that i don't love or hate everything about the games but i point out pros and cons in both!

If it's any help I do that too (though it may not always appear apparent). There's a number of things I dislike about FONV. True some of them stem from the fairly bad engine and gameplay Bethesda shackled them with, but even then I have problems with it. The Legion are horribly incomplete, the dumb karma system still hasn't been fixed etc. Fallout 3 pisses me off for personal reasons, that actually have nothing to do with Fallout 1 or 2 (I discovered them through FO3) If it hadn't been for Tagaziel's blogs I would've been another drooling fanboy saying "Steel be with you" and shit. (My mind was dumber and less analytical as a kid)

(when I was thinking about FONV's flaws I couldn't actually think of many that didn't just stem from the gambryo engine. I'll try to give it more thought but I guess it's just the Legion being incomplete that annoys me most. Not to mention Caesar just assuming that you'd blown up the bunker)

 

[woo1108]

Karma was fixed by jsawyer.esp.
for Legion I think it has flaw too but with that flaw it's still good part of game for me. it's problem is they were not intended to be rival of NCR which are huge and civilized nation.
their original rival was another alience of tribals called Daughter of Hekate. and original rival of NCR was BOS.
so I think compete with NCR is too much burden for Legion.
but in NV I saw thier act is quite awesome, plant spy, use nuke to destroy camp, use bribe to get alience, etc. their tatics quite good enough to compete with NCR though they are not enough to compete as a nation with NCR.

for me big flaw of NV is liberty of Vegas.
there are four kind of Vegas factions
1. strip
2. freeside
3. north vegas square
4. etc
but if I follow the way of liberty, nothing to do with them to
follow the way. they are meant to show how want vegas to be liberated so they should play important role at liberty route.

sorry for poor english.

 

[Earth]

Karma was fixed by jsawyer.esp.

yeah but when you throw mods in, loads of flaws can be fixed. I was just talking about vanilla content.

 

[X12]

I....wish I could understand what's so wrong about quest markers? Knowing what direction to travel in so you know where to go instead of running around not knowing where to go, oh, so horrible.

I....just dont understand the hatred for Skyrim. How is it not a Role Playing Game? No one seems to say this, they just automatically say "its not a role playing game" without anything to back it up. You get to play a role, any role you want. Now if you are saying its not a RPG like Fallout 1 and 2, no freaking crap!

Species restriction are wrong, you should have the freedom to do anything you want. Whether an Nord Mage or High Elven Greatsword Warrior, I want to have the choice to be whatever i want, and Skyrim gives me that choice. You still get certain advantages in certain species, they just arent so obvious. I love freedom. Oblivion seemed too.....restricting.

 

[2house2fly]

Yeah it's weird that none of the patches ever addressed karma. I guess it's something that couldn't be fixed by patch somehow, or maybe they discovered too late that the karma values were messed up.

 

[woo1108]

or they just ignore the karma.
Sawyer fixed it maybe because karma affects level 50 perks.
before LR there's almost nothing important about karma.

I....wish I could understand what's so wrong about quest markers? Knowing what direction to travel in so you know where to go instead of running around not knowing where to go, oh, so horrible.

I....just dont understand the hatred for Skyrim. How is it not a Role Playing Game? No one seems to say this, they just automatically say "its not a role playing game" without anything to back it up. You get to play a role, any role you want. Now if you are saying its not a RPG like Fallout 1 and 2, no freaking crap!

Species restriction are wrong, you should have the freedom to do anything you want. Whether an Nord Mage or High Elven Greatsword Warrior, I want to have the choice to be whatever i want, and Skyrim gives me that choice. You still get certain advantages in certain species, they just arent so obvious. I love freedom. Oblivion seemed too.....restricting.

In rpg what you have to do first is find what to do and second thing is how to do that.

at Fo1, the game give you an object to find water chip.
then where should you find? you should find where to find it by helping around, asking around or just wondering around.
so the game gives you freedom about these three solution or find another find another way to find. that's the freedom.
freedom of skyrim oblivion? or fo3? all the answer and what to do is given. there's no freedom at all. what you do is follow the quest marker. NV also has quest marker but at NV there are lots of alternative solutions the affects other situations. misfits for example, there are four solutions and you can beat the quest
you just simply manipulate the computer to solve, deliver drugs to solve it, teach how to use guns and grenade or solve it by you tongue. each solution makes different outputs if you manipulate the computer you gain infamy of NCR and the misfits will punished because of that, if you deliver the drug, since the actual problem is solved you gain fame of NCR but misfits will finally killed because they rob the caravan to earn money to but drugs. so there are four way of freedom despite of quest marker.

Freedoms of beth's game are mostly fake.
there's some freedom at Daggerfall and Morrowind but weak.
and for oblivion and skyrim everything is given and there are no actual freedom but drived fake freedom given by looking different story. but what you actually do is simple go to linear simple dungeon kill some mobs and get some POS. nothing different.

 

[X12]

In rpg what you have to do first is find what to do and second thing is how to do that.

at Fo1, the game give you an object to find water chip.
then where should you find? you should find where to find it by helping around, asking around or just wondering around.
so the game gives you freedom about these three solution or find another find another way to find. that's the freedom.
freedom of skyrim oblivion? or fo3? all the answer and what to do is given. there's no freedom at all. what you do is follow the quest marker.

You dont get a quest marker to Vault 112 from the very begining, you have to find that information. its the same as not getting the map marker for Necropolis until you get information about it. Quest markers just tell you where to go, but you cant get it until you KNOW where to go. Quest markers were not needed in Fallout 1 and 2 because you could just click on a town and you would start traveling there. Fallout 3, is more complicated. Plus, in Skyrim, you do have the option of turning off active quests (so no quest marker appears).


Anyway, i get the feeling people arround here think i MUST hate the game, or im not a good gamer.

 

[White Knight]

In rpg what you have to do first is find what to do and second thing is how to do that.

at Fo1, the game give you an object to find water chip.
then where should you find? you should find where to find it by helping around, asking around or just wondering around.
so the game gives you freedom about these three solution or find another find another way to find. that's the freedom.
freedom of skyrim oblivion? or fo3? all the answer and what to do is given. there's no freedom at all. what you do is follow the quest marker.

You dont get a quest marker to Vault 112 from the very begining, you have to find that information. its the same as not getting the map marker for Necropolis until you get information about it. Quest markers just tell you where to go, but you cant get it until you KNOW where to go. Quest markers were not needed in Fallout 1 and 2 because you could just click on a town and you would start traveling there. Fallout 3, is more complicated. Plus, in Skyrim, you do have the option of turning off active quests (so no quest marker appears).

Considering how getting a marker for Necropolis is getting the location on a map and nothing more, and the marker for Vault 112 tells you what direction to go in, what doors to go through and for most quests gives you the exact location of whoever you're looking for despite you having no way of knowing that, not they're not the same. One is a location node, the other is unnessecary handholding. There's no marker over Necropolis saying 'Go here, dipshit. It's important!', I can find it on the map myself and go to it. Once I'm there, I'm on my own, and it's up to me to find what I need. You're comparing two different game mechanics.

edit: to answer your other point.

I....wish I could understand what's so wrong about quest markers? Knowing what direction to travel in so you know where to go instead of running around not knowing where to go, oh, so horrible.

In addition to the other points I have made about the quest markers, there's also this.

[spoiler:15d6aa4090]

Holy Shit! What manner of sorcery is this?

Ye gods, and this is a compass, you say? And it tells me what direction I'm facing?
[/spoiler:15d6aa4090]

Condescending comments aside, it's not that hard to find your way to a location with these two tools. A quest marker isn't really necessary. Vault 112's location gets added once you find out about it, and if it's really too hard, you can always fast travel to a location near by.

 

[Hassknecht]

Also, in order to get the marker for Vault 112 you just follow previous quest markers. The problem is that you don't have to pay attention to the game anymore. Just follow the markers, they'll tell you who to speak to, what computers to check and so on. You don't have to think for yourself anymore.
In Fallout 1 you get the location for Vault 15, hoping you'll find a chip there. Nothing else. You have to talk to people, find new locations and pay attention to details if you want to win. You don't just magically know who in Megaton has seen a middle-aged guy.

 

[X12]

Actually, you DONT know who to ask, thats why you ask Lucas Simms and he tells you Moriarty may know.

Also by "direction" i mean not having to look at the map every time to know where im going. The "waypoint" tells me where to go, after i know the coordinates. I still have to walk there, and I have the FREEDOM to do something else. Like, maybe I will start traveling northeast, oh look, its Oasis, this was a nice find. Now, if I was able to instantly fast travel to any location, THEN that would be bull crap (not sure if allowed to swear)

 

[woo1108]

In rpg what you have to do first is find what to do and second thing is how to do that.

at Fo1, the game give you an object to find water chip.
then where should you find? you should find where to find it by helping around, asking around or just wondering around.
so the game gives you freedom about these three solution or find another find another way to find. that's the freedom.
freedom of skyrim oblivion? or fo3? all the answer and what to do is given. there's no freedom at all. what you do is follow the quest marker.

You dont get a quest marker to Vault 112 from the very begining, you have to find that information. its the same as not getting the map marker for Necropolis until you get information about it. Quest markers just tell you where to go, but you cant get it until you KNOW where to go. Quest markers were not needed in Fallout 1 and 2 because you could just click on a town and you would start traveling there. Fallout 3, is more complicated. Plus, in Skyrim, you do have the option of turning off active quests (so no quest marker appears).

without quest marker, there's also auto journal makes it easy.
auto journal of beth game is one of the worst journal which shows all the answer and not funny. too bad NV also have it.
despite oblivion, skyrim, fo3 and NV's journal are suck, Morrowind's journal is one of the greatest auto journal I ever see.
what's the different?

at Morrowind journal plays just a note or diary of your character so it doesn't give you answer directly. and for map, in Morrowind, only big city of shrine marked at maps. so you have to find dungeon or other place your own with information got from NPC by asking around.

but for other TES(after 4) and Fallout(after 3, it's just walkthrough given in game. just do what journal says wiil lead to answer.
and for maps all places are marked so you don't have to find the place.

vault 112? I didn't encoutered any difficult situation in fo3.
I rather think cheap jrpg is way harder than fo3 or skyrim.

 

[X12]

Just because its easy to you doesnt mean it will be easy to others. I have ADD and I get distracted. So its nice to have some hand holding. Do i think it should be optional for those who dont want it? SURE! Let that be part of the refined Hardcore mode of Fallout 4, no quest markers.

 

[White Knight]

Actually, you DONT know who to ask, thats why you ask Lucas Simms and he tells you Moriarty may know.

Also by "direction" i mean not having to look at the map every time to know where im going. The "waypoint" tells me where to go, after i know the coordinates. I still have to walk there, and I have the FREEDOM to do something else. Like, maybe I will start traveling northeast, oh look, its Oasis, this was a nice find. Now, if I was able to instantly fast travel to any location, THEN that would be bull crap (not sure if allowed to swear)

To be fair, having to ask around to find out Moriarty knows where your Dad is wouldn't be bad at all, it's just that Lucas Simms is the first person you talk to when you enter Megaton, so you pretty much get given the information off the bat (I think you may have to complete a task if you don't have a high enough speech skill though). And as for your comment about the waypoint, being able to set one isn't that bad, considering it serves the same process as a satnav, but other than that markers hold your hand far too much.

 

[Akratus]

 

[X12]

i dont get it, screenshot of OA

 

[woo1108]

Just because its easy to you doesnt mean it will be easy to others. I have ADD and I get distracted. So its nice to have some hand holding. Do i think it should be optional for those who dont want it? SURE! Let that be part of the refined Hardcore mode of Fallout 4, no quest markers.

It's not only problem for questmarker but quest design.
the reason why I disappointed with beth is quest design.
at least at oblivion quests are looks different each other and interesting. but fo3 and skyrim hell...
at fo3 there are not many quests around and give no reason to do that and actual quests are not funny. moira that bitxx's quests are looking good as oblivions quest but spents too much time for meaningless walking. it's not because hard to find target but just too long. for NV or other Fallouts, if you get quests then you can finish it not far from there. but for fo3 too faraway from start.

and for skyrim...hell...
the quest degenerated to Daggerfall level.
actually worse than Daggerfall since Daggerfall dungeon is quite good to explore compare with TES 3,4,5. repeating linear boring dungeon crawling isn't that funny. story of quest are bad. every quests are same solution go to dungeon blah blah blah kill the monster blah blah blah get some POS.
for thief guild quest, I really disappointed that the first place to rob is actually another linear dungeon WTF?
if that dungeon is good as Theif 1 or 2, I won't criticize it but dungeon is bad as other TES dungeons.

people who thinks fo3 and skyrim's quests are hard is quite strange. who are they? why does that hard? other easy linear rpgs are way harder than those two(+oblivion) since there are no auto journals and quest markers. lots of people have beaten them. because they are genius? no, what they have is just patience to solve the puzzle. rpg isn't hard genre since you don't have to be genius of controlling or have good nerve reflex. what you should have is normal brain and patient. people who think fo3 and skyrim's quests are hard are just people who can't endure any brain using situation or too lazy to think. for them, the don't have to be rpg, just simple linear shooter would be enough for them to be satisfied.

 

[Oppen]

I....wish I could understand what's so wrong about quest markers? Knowing what direction to travel in so you know where to go instead of running around not knowing where to go, oh, so horrible.

Knowing where to go is not inherently wrong. What is wrong is knowing without a reason. If nobody told you where to go, how does your character know? That kind of breaks role playing: you know what your character knows, no more. If a dialog gives you coordinates, or detailed directions, then the marker MIGHT make sense. If you know what you want to get, but the mission is "go find it, we have no idea where it is", how would you know where it is? Why does the quest marker know? That breaks credibility.

Species restriction are wrong, you should have the freedom to do anything you want. Whether an Nord Mage or High Elven Greatsword Warrior, I want to have the choice to be whatever i want, and Skyrim gives me that choice. You still get certain advantages in certain species, they just arent so obvious. I love freedom. Oblivion seemed too.....restricting.

You are assuming sandbox, where anything you want is what you should get. In role playing, I think consistency is more important than sandbox (both might be achievable, and if that's the case, both are better than one, but in cases where you need to choose, you have to prioritize). If your origin in a game is inconsistent with a race, you just can't be that race, as simple as that. A supermutant or ghould origin would instantly break the "you come from a safe vault" lie on Fallout 3, for example. It makes no sense within that story. The same for Fallout 1. And for supermutant, it's valid for Fallout 2, where your village assumes supermutants are evil (the opening calls them a big evil that turns you into a beast inside, and that's based on the way the village sees the world); a ghoul PC might not break logic there, aside from the fact they didn't get high amounts of radiation.

Actually, you DONT know who to ask, thats why you ask Lucas Simms and he tells you Moriarty may know.

Also by "direction" i mean not having to look at the map every time to know where im going. The "waypoint" tells me where to go, after i know the coordinates. I still have to walk there, and I have the FREEDOM to do something else. Like, maybe I will start traveling northeast, oh look, its Oasis, this was a nice find. Now, if I was able to instantly fast travel to any location, THEN that would be bull crap (not sure if allowed to swear)

IIRC, you could just make a custom marker on the map, so you know in which direction you should go.

Just because its easy to you doesnt mean it will be easy to others. I have ADD and I get distracted. So its nice to have some hand holding. Do i think it should be optional for those who dont want it? SURE! Let that be part of the refined Hardcore mode of Fallout 4, no quest markers.

I agree, but I think there should be more specific customization options. For example, I don't really feel like playing on "bring it on" modes, since I'm pretty slow on reflexes, but I do like to have to think about how often my player eats or drinks water and such. The same for quest markers. I do like the game to expect I'll pay attention, and to not just hand me the answers, but fast paced combats are just not for me. The point is, I don't like the idea of just having "difficulty levels", since it's too wide. Some things are fairly easy in hardcore mode, and some are just too hard for my gaming style.