Quagmire69
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
I more thought house was supposed to be the cannon ending.
I'd support Ceasars Legion except [Insert answer here]
- Thread starter Felspawn
- Start date
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
RogerMaxson37
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Quagmire69 said:
I guess it would be more accurate if I said that I thought the NCR were going to lose the second battle. I don't know though, maybe that's just the hope talking.
I just think that a Legion ending would be interesting (if the Legion was fleshed out more as a faction), because the NCR is also at war the BoS. I doubt that after losing Hoover Dam to the Legion they would have the resources to fend them off AND take on the BoS at the same time. In this situation 1 of 3 things would happen:
1. The BoS and the NCR realise that they need to work together to defeat the Legion, a common foe. A strong BoS and a strong NCR can coexist. However, the technophobic Legion and the technophilic BoS could never coexist.
2. The NCR gets trashed. That leaves the BoS and Caeser's legion to fight eachother.
3. The NCR pulls off a miracle.
(You might want to fix that quote up)
Quagmire69
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
I disagree, I think they are far more compatible than the Brotherhood and the NCR. The Brotherhood are polar opposites of the NCR, and worse they want the same things, old world tech and resources. Thiers no way the two could coexist.
The Legion on the other is far more compatible with the Brotherhood. If Caesar had a little more guile he'd say to the Brotherhood "help me, don't fuck with me, and I’ll give you dibs on all the tech my army comes across". The Brotherhood might even become a separate section of Legion society, they would be the ones that would manage the tech so that the Legion still gets its benefit but while most of the Legion still remains ignorant of it, and does not get corrupted.
W
WelcomeToNewReno
Guest
RogerMaxson37 said:
Give the legion power armor and you'll make quagmire squee like a little girl.
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
Except that's not how both the Brotherhood and the Legion works. The Legion does not make alliances; they make dealings, and then backstab and enslave the unwitting pawns (see the Khans, the Strip families, the Fiends... ). Ceasar very clearly says he wants to be the only power in the Wastes, to wipe the slate clean and begin again (ironically, it's also Elijah's goal. Same difference eh?). The fact that the BOS has so much of the technology Edward Sallow hates builds yet another deep abyss between the two factions; they can never coexist peacefully.
And even if Caesar wanted, why in hell would the BOS ally themselves with a faction that is hell-bent on not enjoying the benefits of technology? Because that's the very core of the Brotherhood's dogma. Look at how stubborn they are; they would probably prefer to die fighting than to submit to Caesar. If Arcade is willing to die rather than help Caesar, I can't even imagine how the much more fanatical Brotherhood would react.
All that is moot anyway. Caesar orders you to blow them up. He wants them out of the picture, period.
True, the Brotherhood wants to hoard the tech while the NCR is all too happy to use it. Simply put, the Brotherhood can never agree with anybody anyway, since they re so isolationist and dogmatic. They can also be the ''polar opposite'' of House that way. The Brotherhood seems to have many poles suddendly.
I don't think an alliance is possible, too much bad blood. A truce, like in the best ending the BOS can have if NCR wins, is as much as they will go.
Yup, 'cause I never said that.
Four Suited Jack
It Wandered In From the Wastes
WelcomeToNewReno said:
That would be awesome.
Anyway, the Legion have obviously killed power-armored foes before, hence why some of the Centurions have power-armor parts on their armor.
RogerMaxson37
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Ilosar said:
No, I don't think that the NCR would be stubborn enough not to do it. The problem lies with Jeremy Maxson, the extremist leader of the BoS. If he died, a more sensible person might take over.
Quagmire69
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Calling me gay, wow, real mature.
Quagmire69 said:
Where did he call you gay?
James Snowscoran
Still Mildly Glowing
More importantly, are you in fact a homosexual?
Quagmire69
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
As i've said before I don't think Caesar is against technology, he just did'nt want robots doing the fighter because it would undermine the basis for his warrior society. I think the Legion luddite philosophy has more to do with tribal superstition than with Caesars ideals. Once Vegas and the NCR are conquered and the sythisis is complete the Legion will have a more moderate view of things like modern medicine.
James Snowscoran
Still Mildly Glowing
Yeah, the NCR synthesis etc. But the luddite attitude to tech is definitely Caesar's. He's pretty explicit about that part.
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
The... synthesis? What? That's against the core principle of the Legion, and then some. Caesar explicitly wants his society not to change, not to prosper, not to ''evolve'', for lack of a better word, in short not to take anything from the nations it conquers. He does not want anything the NCR has; they are an enemy to be crushed, whatever he claims. If he has completely absorbed benign tribes, his treatment of the NCR will be probably worse, since they are far more educated and prosperous than any tribe, and so more full of sedicious ideas and cultural identities. Imagine if he takes Shady Sands? Since the Legion kill all male adults (AKA at the very least half of those that are educated) and treats the females like vermin barely fit to speak (AKA the other half), I fail to see how any kind of ''synthesis'' could be done. Sallow's grasp of Hegelian dialectics (the errors of this particular doctrine notwhistanding) is flawed; for one thing, Hegels didn't anticipate the concept of total warfare like the Legion does. For a synthesis to happen, the victor must absorb and accept the defeated to a degree, not destroy it utterly, as the Legion does and has seemingly no intention of stopping to do. See their treatment of Vegas if they win. Especially if Lanius is the new Caesar and Sallow's already shaky philosophical justifications go away.
You mean, before or after he goes on a rant about technology in front of you? Before or after he forbids medicine? Before or after a large portion of his men fight with nothing more than repurposed football gear (by the way, how did he get all those? Must have raided a couple hundreds stadiums or something) and machetes. The luddite aspect to the Legion is very much deliberate. If it wasn't, Caesar would beat it out of his troops the hard way, since he only knows that.
The Enclave 86
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Ilosar said:
I suggest you speak to him again, he explicitally states that the war with the NCR will change the Legion, he also wants to change the Legion from a nomadic tribe to a standing army, with New Vegas as the capital.
GatheringCircle
First time out of the vault
If Shady Sands surrenders without fighting the Legion will not kill all the males and as we have discussed we have no idea how females, who are raised in Legion proper or are part of tribes that willingly surrenders, are treated.
He may have gone on a rant about technology, but he certainly doesn't mind using every valuable piece they find. (e.g. Artillery Canon or laser weapons) The Legion uses every weapon they can lay their hands, but they don't have enough for everyone so they give the recruits a machete, which is better than nothing. The Legion's manpower is massive compared to any other faction in the game so it cannot equip every man with high quality armor and a firearm like the NCR can. And does it really matter what Caesar says about medicine? Neither sides have access to any major supplies, although there is even less in the Legion, but if any were found the Legion would put it to use, just like everything else they get their hands on. The only thing I can think of that Caesar didn't want was the robots. And if you think about it that makes sense, because Caesar doesn't have any guarantee that the robots will listen to him over Mr.House, for all he knows the robots could turn on him at any moment.
James Snowscoran
Still Mildly Glowing
GatheringCircle, if it had simply been an issue of having insufficient amount of tech, he would probably have said so. We have to assume that when Caesar says he believes modern technology was what caused the downfall of humanity and that for that reason we should stay away from it, this is actually what he means, not just something he says to improve morale.
GatheringCircle
First time out of the vault
Actions speak louder than words. He does give even lowly recruits firearms, he does go out of his way to get artillery fixed, and he acquires laser weapons form the van graffs. So why shouldn't we believe he is only saying it for morale. He can lie, and evidently he was.
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
As said by GatheringCircle,
The problem with changing the Legion at this point is that he has done everything in his power to ensure it does not. A sudden switch in policy will damage it severely, especially if it accepts NCR ideology in itself, since it's the very antithesis of the Legion's. He apparently does not change much if he captures Vegas, it is a slave haven and the Legion presumably prepares to march against the weakened NCR. There's 0 hints of it actually changing. If Lanius is in power all pretense is dropped and they just ravage and murder most everything. Marcus is right when he says the Legion follows Caesar, Caesar's subordinates and Caesar's brutality, not Caesar's ideals.
And the Legion is already a standing army, no? It (apparently) holds 4 States in perfect security, that's as big as the NCR if not bigger.
Why would it surrender? By that point NCR would know exactly what the Legion does to it's prisoners, the men are still killed and the women are still enslaved, especially if they are as culturally strong as NCR's. The second tribe to face Caesar surrendered. He still killed the males and enslaved the females. Why would he make an exception? If a few tribals are considered dangerous to the Legion's unity, imagine what educated citizens would be.
That's done so that he is not hopelessly outmatched by NCR, both lore and gameplay wise. If his whole army had machetes vs the rifles, power armor and heavy-caliber weapons of the NCR he would not last long. He is dogmatic but not completely stupid. As for medicine, he says it weakens the body (but has no trouble using it himself, the hypocrite). Plus, technology is far more than armament; appliances, lodging, clothes, resource gathering, mass-production of food and drink, all the stuff that makes life easier Robots are a given, even NCR and the Brotherhood don't use them much, presumably because the facilities and knowledge required to manufacture them are lost to any but the Think Tank and possibly Mr. House.
ramessesjones
It Wandered In From the Wastes
People that surrender to the Legion peacefully don't necessarily share the same fate as those that fight against it; for example look at some of Legions endings for Primm and Goodsprings. These places are largely left alone unless they attempt to fight back.
In regards to technology, Caesar is very pragmatic and while he has certain doctrine he's established to maintain order and self reliance among his troops, he's always willing to make exceptions when need to be, whether it is using medicine and the auto-doc as gift, using fairly modern weapons like the howitzer or 12.7mm smg, the radiation attack in Searchlight, hiring a female courier, or allowing traders to move about freely. Given his talk about synthesis I think the same rule bending nature will allow him to change the rules when the time comes should the conditions change enough to allow him greater access to medicine, weapons and education.
In regards to technology, Caesar is very pragmatic and while he has certain doctrine he's established to maintain order and self reliance among his troops, he's always willing to make exceptions when need to be, whether it is using medicine and the auto-doc as gift, using fairly modern weapons like the howitzer or 12.7mm smg, the radiation attack in Searchlight, hiring a female courier, or allowing traders to move about freely. Given his talk about synthesis I think the same rule bending nature will allow him to change the rules when the time comes should the conditions change enough to allow him greater access to medicine, weapons and education.
lets say the Legion would use no other weapons then machetes and similar.
Then a single machine gun and a few men could defeat his whole army. Thats what the Brits did in Africa. 10 000 people but all just tribes with leader shields and spears against maybe 100 armed soldiers ? No problem. Machine guns have been designed exactly for that.
Then a single machine gun and a few men could defeat his whole army. Thats what the Brits did in Africa. 10 000 people but all just tribes with leader shields and spears against maybe 100 armed soldiers ? No problem. Machine guns have been designed exactly for that.