I'd support Ceasars Legion except [Insert answer here]

[Courier]

Edit: And the last line Ron Perlman said in the closing slide was about Cass dying which really made me feel like a douche, even though I didn't know Jean Baptiste wanted to kill her when I brought her in.

What? You really didn't know his intentions.

Not until he shot her, I tried to reload from the auto save to help Cass, but I couldn't take all the guards at once and my last quicksave and regular save were so far back I didn't want to reload them.

I never started her side quest, Baptiste just told me he wanted to talk to her and they were paying well so I just went to the Mojave Outpost and brought her to him, needless to say I felt pretty bad.

I have not sided with the Van Graffs since, I routinely slaughter them one by one in all my following games.

 

[whirlingdervish]

I managed to wipe out the Van Graffs pretty handily with Cass and EDE on my side and a hearty helping of .357 JFP and .45-70 SWC combined with lots of drugs and the cowboy perk.

la longue carbine and the ranger sequioa don't screw around when you load them up with their better armor piercing rounds.

I wasn't yet sure which companion perk I wanted her to get, so I left Cass behind for a while, snuck around and found evidence against both the Van Graffs and Crimson Caravan's leader. Then when I'd done it the peaceful way, I had her join back up and to see if she could get both perks (indeed she can! ) and we went to visit the Van Graffs.

To maintain my idolized rep with the C.C. faction after this but still get her revenge, I had to leave Cass by the gun runners shack, sneak into the Gaurd Barracks at a very late hour of the night and hide inside the bathroom until the only gaurd left awake walked in to take a piss.
He caught a silenced 12.7mm to the back of the skull and then Alice got one soon after while she slept on the bunkbed.

 

[Dr. Croccer]

Even if Lanius should successfully assume control of the Legion following Caesar's death, it's worth recalling that he is not half the leader Caesar was. Caesar was a shrewd genius with an excellent education in linguistics, anthropology and history. Lanius' background is as a tribal berserker warrior who slew 15 of his tribesmen in a fit of rage when he discovered the chief had surrendered to Caesar. He doesn't inspire loyalty, and if the Legion doesn't fall apart under his rule it probably will when he dies and a new succession crisis presents itself. Bottom line, the Legion just doesn't have the institutions to survive as a political entity without a great leader like Caesar at the helm.

.

Well, Lanius' real nature is rather vague. Caesar claims that he was a beserker that has no loyalty to the Legion, yet he is clearly quite intelligent and calm-headed, and cares about the lives of his men.

 

[Ilosar]

Uh, what? Lanius is calm and level-headed? Ever did a Legion playthrough where Ceasar died? He razes New Vegas just because he can.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Uh, what? Lanius is calm and level-headed? Ever did a Legion playthrough where Ceasar died? He razes New Vegas just because he can.

Because he doesn't see anything of value in Vegas; Lanius is a warlord, he cannot lead the Legion into anything other than warfare.

@Dr. Croccer

and cares about the lives of his men.

He doesn't, he selected an arbitary 10% of a group of soldiers he was leading and had them killed; he cares about having the men alive for him to command and maintain order but he doesn't care about the men themselves.

 

[Courier]

Uh, what? Lanius is calm and level-headed? Ever did a Legion playthrough where Ceasar died? He razes New Vegas just because he can.

Actually in the Legion ending where Caesar dies it says something about how Lanius isn't really as bad as people say he is and that he sometimes does show mercy, although it's still the worst ending you can get.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Hitler has shown mercy sometimes as well. So yeah. He isnt as bad like all the people say.

 

[Surf Solar]

Because comparing artificial video game characters or anything else with Hitler is always such a cool idea.

 

[Courier]

Hitler has shown mercy sometimes as well. So yeah. He isnt as bad like all the people say.

He's not really that bad a guy, especially when you talk to him. He disapproved of the Omerta's plan to take over the Strip thinking it was a dishonorable way for the Legion to gain control, and he doesn't want to continue the Legion's campaign East or battle for the Dam if it means death to his soldiers. He also criticizes the Frumentarii and Vulpes as being "Dishonest".

He might be pretty brutal but he's definitely more honorable than a lot of people in either Caesar's Legion or the NCR.

 

[shihonage]

Hitler has shown mercy sometimes as well. So yeah. He isnt as bad like all the people say.

 

[Wintermind]

Considering that your average person's views on how evil Hitler was is generally "evil incarnate", it's not exactly an inaccurate statement.

 

[Courier]

The way I see it, when you side with the Legion you're getting exactly what it says on the package. They might be slavers, they might be warmongerers, but they're still civilization. Even if half the population are slaves, at least they don't have to worry about where they're going to get their next meal or worry about some random drug addict putting a gun to the back of their head. Caesar's Legion organizes and brings civilization to the Mojave, wipes the slate clean of the old world's errors, and gives the wasteland a chance to begin again from the ground up.

 

[Ilosar]

The problem is that we are told that, but in effect we do not see it. I am not only talking about the lack of Legion-controlled towns, but of their epilogues as well; any settlement that resists them, or any group that shows any kind of opposition (Kings, Primm, Novac, Great Khans) is completely anihilated. At worse, the three other factions drive them off. Slaying all in your path is not helping anybody. And why would the Wasteland need another chance when the NCR is already doing it's best? It might not be perfect but it sure beats a sexist slave state any time.

And about the Legate, razing the biggest city in the region is not my idea of spreading civilization. The Legion under Cesar could, I guess, but under Lanius they are little else than a huge barbarian horde, whatever the guy says about ''honor''. And if he cares for his men why does he send hundreds to his deaths after the Remnants, even if they helped him win?

 

[Courier]

The problem is that we are told that, but in effect we do not see it. I am not only talking about the lack of Legion-controlled towns, but of their epilogues as well; any settlement that resists them, or any group that shows any kind of opposition (Kings, Primm, Novac, Great Khans) is completely anihilated. At worse, the three other factions drive them off. Slaying all in your path is not helping anybody. And why would the Wasteland need another chance when the NCR is already doing it's best? It might not be perfect but it sure beats a sexist slave state any time.

This was mostly due to time constraints and because we really only saw the front line of the Legion, those guys were soldiers not citizens. Do you really think that soldiers over in Afghanistan right now live anything like regular civilians back in Europe and America?

And about the Legate, razing the biggest city in the region is not my idea of spreading civilization. The Legion under Cesar could, I guess, but under Lanius they are little else than a huge barbarian horde, whatever the guy says about ''honor''. And if he cares for his men why does he send hundreds to his deaths after the Remnants, even if they helped him win?

Like I said he's brutal, but he's still honorable. He's the kind of guy who wouldn't kill an unarmed man, but kill you just as soon as look at you if you pose any sort of threat to him. They pursue the Remnants exactly because of what they saw them do at Hoover Dam, a couple old people wiping out entire platoons of NCR soldiers by themselves, and they didn't really have any loyalty to the Legion they were only doing what the Courier had requested. If the Remnants ever turned on the Legion a lot more people could die than the hundreds of soldiers who were lost hunting them, and that's including civilians. Like I said, even if the Legion is brutal at least the citizens don't have to worry about some crazy person putting a gun to their head like with anybody else.

Legion controlled territory might not exactly be a fun place to live, but at least it isn't a "wasteland" anymore.

And did it say anything about him destroying Vegas? I thought it just said he "destroyed any who resisted him", not the city itelf. In the Legion ending under Lanius it actually says something along the lines of "Under the Legion's banner, civilization - savage as it was - finally came to the Mojave wasteland."[/i]

 

[Wintermind]

The NCR may be doing it's best, but it's best may not be as good as the Legion's best. "The NCR is doing okay" is not a valid reason to support them over the Legion. Besides, we don't really even have a clue as to what the NCR is like, again, seeing as we only really see it's border and some of it's troops.

The thing about razing Vegas is that vegas doesn't really have much. The only advantage is that it has buildings and stuff, but it doesn't actually produce anything, and only exists to drain resources from the surroundings.

And by the way, 'caring about your men' doesn't mean 'not sending them to their deaths'. It means 'not wasting their lives'. Likewise, he might have wasted recruits, but the Legion doesn't care about recruits, only Legionaries.

RE: the Remnants: Because he views them as a threat to his power and/or the security of the nation? They could probably pose a serious threat to the Legion without a whole lot of effort. Besides, everybody's your brother till the rent comes due.

 

[Courier]

And by the way, 'caring about your men' doesn't mean 'not sending them to their deaths'. It means 'not wasting their lives'. Likewise, he might have wasted recruits, but the Legion doesn't care about recruits, only Legionaries.

Actually he doesn't like any of his soldiers needlessly dying, for instance he disapproved of the first battle of Hoover Dam because he felt Caesar was needlessly sacrificing too many people, and he'll gladly give up the Legion's Westward expansion if he thinks the sacrifice and loss of life will be too great, which is something you couldn't even say about the NCR.

 

[Crni Vuk]

He might be pretty brutal but he's definitely more honorable than a lot of people in either Caesar's Legion or the NCR.

Of course. Yeah how could I forget about that. He has "honor".

That excuses of course everything.

I will never get how people can support the Legion. It is not so much that I disslike them. But that Obsidian did simply a not so well job with showing them. Neither Lagus (orwhatshisname) or Caesar Salad are really that great of characters.

 

[Courier]

Of course. Yeah how could I forget about that. He has "honor".

It's more than you can say about most people in either the Legion or NCR. He might not be a very well developed character but from what you do see of him he doesn't seem like he's actually as bad a person as people say. To be honest I think he's probably a better person than Graham was, just a little less charismatic.

 

[Ilosar]

I am with Zork of The Fifth Element on this one: Honor is just an excuse butchers make up to cover their atrocities. The man slaughtered his own tribe, he razes an entire city instead of, you know, converting it's vast spaces or something (and with the Legion's track record I seriously doubt he politely asked the hundreds or even thousands dwelling in it to move out of the way), he pursues the Remnants with no regards for the life of his men (if he did, he would have given up after a few tries, spears and machetes are no good against Power Armor and a Vertibird, as it should be), and his ending more or less implies he just attack-moves his armies West destroying all in his path. Yes, a real gentlemen there, just what the Wasteland needs, more warlords causing untold destruction where there was once peace.

Really, defending the Legion is a bit of a stretch, but Lanius? He is the worst of the lot save maybe for Vulpes Inculta.

And about the NCR's ineptitude, they still are the only faction in the Fallout canon to actually get things done, if we forget that Capital Wasteland White Knight's Happy Go-Round business known otherwise as Lyon's Brotherhood. We see them protecting the population (Goodsprings, Primm and Novac fare the best under their rule, the others either ignore or crush them), develop the economy with their caravans, are willing to cooperate with the other major factions (the two other major powers require you to exterminate at least one), implement large-scale agricultural projects (far more important to the Wasteland that Ceasar's ''glory'' or House's casinos), not to mention holding off the cosplaying psychos on the other side of the Colorado. For all that talk about the NCR being inept they did a lot of things in the Mojave, they are certainly not perfect but this is Fallout, nobody is.

 

[Wintermind]

I really don't think most butchers invent honor to cover their atrocities.

Courier's point is that Lanius is pretty much straight up. He might be a murderous bastard, but he'll always be a bastard. You can count on him to be Lanius. Lanius wouldn't resort to treachery or the like to kill you. He would stab you in the back, in the back as the phrase goes, but he would cut you in half with the Blade of the East, but you'd be expecting it, not in the least because he'd be charging you with that goddamned sword screaming bloody murder.