I'd support Ceasars Legion except [Insert answer here]

[Courier]

Yeah I think we're getting a bit off topic here, the only reason I brought up historical Rome was to show that women in Caesar's Legion towns probably aren't treated as badly as we saw them being treated on the front lines in the game.

So back on topic; my biggest problem with the Legion is their technophobia and aimless expansion. I think their brutality can be justified in the wasteland setting, but they don't seem like a viable long term solution to the wasteland's problems.

 

[Horus9k]

Well I think speculating on the Legion as a 'long term solution' isn't viable without insight into their economic, trading, civilian social and educational policies. We just see the soldiers, and I can only say that such an army as Caesar's (something to rival the NCR in numbers) would require a massive infrastructure and surplus of goods to be holed up on the other side of the Hoover Dam for so long.

 

[Courier]

The reason I say I don't see them as a viable long-term solution is because, from what we're told in the game at least, they're an entirely military oriented empire. Conquest is what keeps them from fighting each other like they did before Caesar showed up, once they take over California they wouldn't last long before collapsing.

This doesn't necessarily mean I think the Legion is a bad option though, in fact I think they're better for the wasteland than House or the NCR. The way I see it the Legion is more useful for just wiping the slate clean. They come in, eliminate most of the crime, stop petty tribal wars, and generally clean up the wasteland before collapsing. This creates a much more hospitable environment for young nations like the NCR to emerge, and eliminates several of the problems the NCR would have after taking control.

So more or less the Legion just makes it a nicer place for less brutal people to start over.

 

[Horus9k]

See I think that such an empire isn't doomed to collapse, as to state it point blank like that is essentially playing into the NCR's propaganda machine. You cannot bring so many different tribes together, and make them fight, and expect them to return to their homelands unchanged and ready to fight among each other like the savages they once were. The Legion men were exposed to a new ethos which would have permeated into almost every male in every tribe (and non-tribes as most likely Caesar's path would also include many civilized areas as well). If anything Caesar didn't just forge and army, but a nation in the process.

If Caesar took California as well his territory, and thus his men would also transform once again, Caesar would have used the correct method of making garrisons of his tribal, American Mid-West soldiers in California, hundreds of miles from their homes. Historically the SPQR did this with great results in terms of discipline, as well.

 

[Courier]

You cannot bring so many different tribes together, and make them fight, and expect them to return to their homelands unchanged and ready to fight among each other like the savages they once were.

Tell that to the Mongolians. Not long after they ended their invasion of Europe and returned home they collapsed and the tribes began to fight each other again. Conquest of other people was the only thing keeping them from killing each other, Caesar's Legion would likely end the same way since they seem to be much more like the historical Mongols than the historical Romans.

 

[Horus9k]

Well to be fair the Mongolian Empire and successor states existed for around another 120 years before complete dissolution.

That outcome would be neat, Legion successor states. Nation state development in real time.

 

[Courier]

That's why I said I like the Legion, after they collapse it creates a better place for more reasonable and less brutal empires to emerge. It's like humanity taking one step backwards and two steps forwards.

 

[Horus9k]

Wait, you claim the Legion will go the way of the Mongol Empire and yet think that the successor states won't be just as brutal as the successor Khanates?

Also, I still have my doubts that the Legion will collapse like you say, as unlike the Mongol Empire, which didn't have clear rules of succession (I mean a woman ran it for a certain amount of time for Christ's sake), the Legion has a well defined line of successors who were probably all hardened warriors trained for such a duty.

 

[Courier]

Wait, you claim the Legion will go the way of the Mongol Empire and yet think that the successor states won't be just as brutal as the successor Khanates?

I doubt it, something similar to the NCR would probably come along before long and take over. Perhaps even ex-NCR citizens themselves. If not then presumably the BoS would come out of hiding and do what they had been waiting to do since the bombs dropped, use their hoarded technology to rebuild the wastes now that everyone but whatever tribes formed out of the Legion's crumbled empire are out of the way. With no mutant armies/pre-war secret societies/large empires an organization like the BoS should have an easy time re-uniting everyone.

Also, I still have my doubts that the Legion will collapse like you say, as unlike the Mongol Empire, which didn't have clear rules of succession (I mean a woman ran it for a certain amount of time for Christ's sake), the Legion has a well defined line of successors who were probably all hardened warriors trained for such a duty.

It's stated in the game several times that the Legion won't last long after Caesar is dead. While I don't think Lanius is as evil as people make him out to be, all he knows is war. Once their is nothing left to conquer the Legion will fail under his command.

 

[Ilosar]

See I think that such an empire isn't doomed to collapse, as to state it point blank like that is essentially playing into the NCR's propaganda machine. You cannot bring so many different tribes together, and make them fight, and expect them to return to their homelands unchanged and ready to fight among each other like the savages they once were

Except the dissolution pretty much always happened, it's not just the NCR that says it, it's detailed, researched historical fact. Mongols, Alexander's Greeks, N@zis, Imperial Japanese in WW2 (to name the most prominent examples), such kinds of brutal conquests always left nothing but devastation in their wake, and utter chaos when they pulled out and/or collapsed. Some elements remained, but the bulk of it was lost because, fuck, who the hell wants to associate with the army that massacred and enslaved everybody. Empires that had a more ''gentle'' (and I use the term loosely) approach had a much more lasting and, usually, somewhat beneficial effect (like, say, the actual Romans, whose methods were very different from Caesar's rape, pillage, burn and enslave the fuck out of the rest) because locals learned to know the invaders, not just to fear them. It's hard to learn and adopt customs as either a slave or a corpse. If they were ''savages'' before, how the hell do you qualify the Legion's modus operandi? How will having been enslaved change anything for the better for these people anyway?

As it stands, a victorious Legion will take Vegas and the Dam (which is mostly of no use to it whatsoever, given the pretty dumb technophobia aspect), engage in a devastating war of attrition with the still very strong NCR (because Caesar will not change the ways of the Legion, they are it's power base, and Lanius most definitely doesn't, so the conquests will continue), and if it wins, then what? It will collapse upon itself probably, since it simply can't hold all the territory from California to New Mexico/Texas (their implied eastern limit IIRC) because it doesn't seem to have anything like an efficient bureaucracy (which is oh so very crucial in maintaining an empire, and requires an educated elite, which doesn't happen if all of your people are either slaves or soldiers). After the collapse, what? Almost everybody in the Legion is an ignorant lamb either waiting to be killed on the battlefield or destined to a life's work or forced labor, so the intelligent ones would gather support and fight each other, with a very uncertain future. Maybe an NCR-like democracy would rise from the ashes, eventually, when the danger of putting too much power in one person would have been made very much clear. But then all of it would have just been wasted life and time; the NCR already exists, many of it's problem are a direct or indirect result of the Legion (including the Fiends, drugged up by their allies the Khans).

The Legion just flat out doesn't work for me. You can't just form an army or slavers and murderes, rampages your way across a territory to a very bleak future, then say ''oh, it was neccessary, the Wasteland is shit, so making it an even shitter place was logic!'' Hell no. The NCR is a democracy (to the extent such a setting allows), it's existed longer than any other organized faction save the now dieing Brotherhood and the ultra-dependant Followers, and it's still alive and kicking, with an organized government, strong economy and powerful army, without having to resort to the Legion's barbary. The fact it has problems doesn't mean it should be declared worthless and cast down, especially when the alternative for the Wastes is a so dreadfully wrong society.

 

[Horus9k]

The problem with your second point is that those mentioning the Legion's supposed weakness happen to be a) in ostensibly NCR or NCR-influenced areas only and b) unaware of the infrastructure that Caesar's forces/burgeoning nation has in the unseen territories east of the Mojave. I'm not saying you're wrong but unless the entire area is devoid of culture (which is isn't, according to the design docs for Van Buren), the Legion would last much longer without Caesar than you're probably willing to admit.

Another thing that we're missing is that even with the fracturing you envision there's still the fact that local Centurions and other Caesarian administrators would still be the authorities in these regions. It wouldn't be the 'NCR' forcing hegemony in these areas as they a) have just come out of a rather costly war (assuming they defeat Caesar or he is killed and his army decides to go back east) and b) would have to go on the offensive and defeat probably hundreds of hardened, localized Legion military assets. Not to mention dug in.

Something akin to the NCR rising on its own is even less likely, now that Caesarian warrior philosophy has permeated the area. Most tribals and even civilization centres are most likely disillusioned to the 'old America' even if they are aware of it, as the Legion's indoctrination paints it in a rather negative light.

Except the dissolution pretty much always happened, it's not just the NCR that says it, it's detailed, researched historical fact.

In that case your precious NCR is doomed too, as every government, nation state, species, taxa is doomed to extinction on a certain timeline.

Mongols,

Successor states that lasted hundreds of years hardly strikes me as an example of a failure on the scale that the anti-Legion imminent catastrophe you're envisioning would be. If anything such a strategy would be a success.

Alexander's Greeks,

Same as the Mongols. The diadochoi were hardly a triumphant outcome, but hardly a failure. I'd like to see you build a better state minutes before dying of a mind-altering sickness.

N@zis,

Terrible comparison. Nazis were crushed and dispersed into the wind by something like 8 fronts, widescale civilian bombing and literally nowhere to run. The Legion is immune to this and even at the worst outcome in the came suffer a defeat on 1/1000th of the scale of say, the Huertgen Forest battle.

Imperial Japanese in WW2 (to name the most prominent examples), such kinds of brutal conquests always left nothing but devastation in their wake, and utter chaos when they pulled out and/or collapsed.

Pfft. Had the Axis had won the Second World War you wouldn't be blathering this nonsense. Also, considering that the Mongolians and Alexandrian's diadochoi's states lasted hundreds of years afterwards, this point is lost. Chaos and collapse is inevitable for any... chaotic state collapse, 'peaceful' or warlike it's all the same.

Some elements remained, but the bulk of it was lost because, fuck, who the hell wants to associate with the army that massacred and enslaved everybody.

Not sure what you consider 'little' considering that the Greek and Mongolian successor states were fucking massive, and for decades the size of the original conqueror's territory (sans a few border details) and lasted relatively stably for many decades after. Germany and Japan's examples are different because they, like I said, were mercilessly pummelled into complete submission, something which the NCR would never be able to do.

Empires that had a more ''gentle'' (and I use the term loosely) approach had a much more lasting and, usually, somewhat beneficial effect (like, say, the actual Romans, whose methods were very different from Caesar's rape, pillage, burn and enslave the fuck out of the rest) because locals learned to know the invaders, not just to fear them.

Two things, a) the SPQR's tactics were in many cases very similar to Caesar's as b) Caesar did not rape, burn and pillage those tribes who disarmed themselves peacefully to him (though he took slaves, like the Romans would have).

It's hard to learn and adopt customs as either a slave or a corpse. If they were ''savages'' before, how the hell do you qualify the Legion's modus operandi? How will having been enslaved change anything for the better for these people anyway?

Plenty of understanding were burned into those slaves, and the male children of slaves were made into legionaries.

It will collapse upon itself probably, since it simply can't hold all the territory from California to New Mexico/Texas (their implied eastern limit IIRC) because it doesn't seem to have anything like an efficient bureaucracy (which is oh so very crucial in maintaining an empire, and requires an educated elite, which doesn't happen if all of your people are either slaves or soldiers).

Well this presupposes that a) the Legion doesn't have an effective bureaucracy, which we don't as of yet know as we have not seen their bureaucracy (though supporting a massive army and Caesar the grand strategist stating explicitly that his army was willing and able to maintain long attrition battles with the NCR seem to hint otherwise) and b) they've been doing a damn fine job holding all of that territory thus far.

The Legion just flat out doesn't work for me.

Well it works, nonetheless.

 

[Ilosar]

The Legion is immune to this

Really? How? Say the Legion loses Hoover Dam (and most of it's senior officiers in the process, because of how it's organized and how dumb it is to have your officiers leading troops on the battlefield with guns involved, but I digress). Moore and Oliver outright state that they won't let up. What happens to a slaver nation that has failed twice before another and ia being driven off? I have a hard time seeing the Legion continue on saying Caesar is the invincible god of War or somesuch, their legitimacy as a force that can put safety and power into the Wastes is definitely broken. Infighting will probably occur, maybe not a dramatic fall like Nazi Germany's but the Legion will collapse in fairly short order, and replacing Edward Sallow (who is a proven incompetent and hypocryte now) with Lanius (who either had his spirit broken or is dead) or whatever other guy in the Legion (Vulpes? please...) won't do anything to stop it.

And when I say the Legion doesn't work, I mean it's economic and societal model doesn't even make any sense. The wikia claims that
''Caesar's military is comprised of all able-bodied men in his society''. How the hell does that work? if every male is a soldier, you can't have an effective economy or society, because then only women would participate in such activities, and ''the women are all expected to become wives and care takers''. Thingies is, if all men are off soldiering and all women are supposed to care for them (and the game also implies rape is a relatively common and overlooked practice, so much for that ''safety for all'' stuff, eh?), and every single person in your territory is forcibly integrated into the Legion, where is the production? The economy? The education (you got to have an organised intellectual elite, one person simply cannot run an empire, and the priestresses are stated to ready people for life in the Legion, not properly educate them)? It doesn't make any sense. It's worse than we just seeing the Legion's army, it's flatly implying the army we see is all there is to the legion, which is ridiculous. No wonder Legion territory is safer if everybody is a soldier and there are no settlements, on soldier camps tended by slaves, because that's the only way the Legion could possibly be given all the info we have. The Legion might hold all that territory, but it doesn't have the knowledge or infrastructure to actually develop it, based on what we know.

Successor states that lasted hundreds of years hardly strikes me as an example of a failure on the scale that the anti-Legion imminent catastrophe you're envisioning would be

But then it's not the Legion anymore, is it? It's just a bunch of states who retained some qualities of the invading force, as I described earlier. But even that's not really possible, nothing in the Legion remains but the Legion, Caesar explicitely wipes out every single prior cultural ties, so what can remain after the Legion if it's people know nothing but it? Hell, even the Mongols weren't so damn determined to make people under their rule so meaningless. Big C says it himself: ''My Legion obeys me, even unto death. Why? Because they live to serve the greater good, and they know of no alternatives.''. When no ''greater good'' (a sentence oddly common when trying to justify atrocities, as an aside) remains, at least in the form they knew, they are left woth nothing else. Caesar ensures there is no post-Legion, which is yet another reason his ways are so wrong.

Two things, a) the SPQR's tactics were in many cases very similar to Caesar's as b) Caesar did not rape, burn and pillage those tribes who disarmed themselves peacefully to him (though he took slaves, like the Romans would have).

Romans took some as slaves (mostly defeated soldiers, no?), and left the rest under Pax Romana. The Legion takes everybody, conscripts the men, indocrtrinates the children, and forces the women into brutal servitude, which leads to the fridge logic described above.

Eh, the more I dig into the Legion, the less I like them. I think I prefer House after, he doesn't expect his State to rely on slavery and murder.

 

[Horus9k]

Really? How? Say the Legion loses Hoover Dam (and most of it's senior officiers

You're really going to sit there and tell me that most of Caesar's General Staff amounts to 5-6 people? Really?

I find that hard to believe. If this were so and every male was involved in the military (I'll deal with that in a second) then the Legion doesn't have any territory as the small garrisons all over Caesar's territory would be commanded by inexperienced lower officers. No, there are probably thousands of Centurions with administrative positions all over Legion territory. Otherwise Caesar's empire wouldn't have been able to function after it grew to over a few villages. Not to mention his entire infrastructure. Do you think that these Centurions (they may or ought to be called something else) who are advanced administrators would let everything go to hell if 5-10 older men died at Hoover Dam? Does Caesar, a man who united tens of thousands of tribes into a regional superpower strike you as a man who would have an underdeveloped administrative system and an undermanned General Staff? Please.

in the process, because of how it's organized and how dumb it is to have your officiers leading troops on the battlefield with guns involved, but I digress).

I agree that is idiotic, as these men never tend to leave journals/records for future officers to read. But then again, we have thousands of Centurions back in Legion territory running everything.

And when I say the Legion doesn't work, I mean it's economic and societal model doesn't even make any sense. The wikia claims that ''Caesar's military is comprised of all able-bodied men in his society''. How the hell does that work?

Well Sparta was organized among similar lines, and it is well known that Legionnaires take wives, perhaps the women play a more central role at home and in economics than we're led to believe (as Crni Vuk pointed out things are different on the front as back at home). I could see slaves-turn-wives trading fruits, meats, grains at the market with little household slaves doing the manual labour. Sounds quite nice, actually.

Not to mention that a military isn't 'only' constituted of soldiers. Most likely military economic needs and civilian economic needs are not divided so as to allow the Legion to flip into a 'total war' state at a moment's need. We do see Aurelius of Phoenix doing a lot of paperwork when he isn't standing around looking at the side of a hill.

Thingies is, if all men are off soldiering and all women are supposed to care for them (and the game also implies rape is a relatively common and overlooked practice, so much for that ''safety for all'' stuff, eh?),

Well 'care for them' implies 'care for their home' when they're off 'soldiering' on the front lines, which not all of them do. I could imagine local garrisons in the interior of Legion territory engaged in economic life. Otherwise the Legion wouldn't work, period, though it has been working, quite successfully I might add for many, many years (and many to come).

It's worse than we just seeing the Legion's army, it's flatly implying the army we see is all there is to the legion, which is ridiculous.

Indeed, sounds like NCR propaganda. Or just untrue, as any society as you depict it cannot exist, and Obsidian have better writers than NMA, apparently.

No wonder Legion territory is safer if everybody is a soldier and there are no settlements, on soldier camps tended by slaves, because that's the only way the Legion could possibly be given all the info we have.

Well that's why most rational people, who have seen only a small part of a society (like its military), rightly assume that there is a vastly larger, more complex civilization in existence. This is exactly how it is with the Legion.

It's just a bunch of states who retained some qualities of the invading force, as I described earlier.

Nah, you tried to minimize these successor states, which held the bulk of the former empire in terms of society (Greeks leading the diadochoi states and Mongols leading the Khanates), land, culture, economy etc. For many decades the diadochoi states functioned like Alexander's empire with some power play between successors, the same with the Mongols though that empire did not split up until some time after. In both cases these nations were known as 'the Greeks' and 'the Mongols' with only learned people noting the difference. I'd wager it would be the same with the hypothetical Legion successor states.

But even that's not really possible, nothing in the Legion remains but the Legion, Caesar explicitely wipes out every single prior cultural ties, so what can remain after the Legion if it's people know nothing but it?

You have a warrior ethos, artistic style, a cult (to Caesar), stories (which can easily be translated into epic tales, songs, etc.). You have the elements needed to forge a high culture right there. It's not perfect but you're understating the potential.

Eh, the more I dig into the Legion, the less I like them. I think I prefer House after, he doesn't expect his State to rely on slavery and murder.

This is all you've convinced me of, as in all likelihood your staunch moralism makes it impossible to understand why, how and what the Legion is.

 

[Ilosar]

You're really going to sit there and tell me that most of Caesar's General Staff amounts to 5-6 people? Really?

Isin't that how NCR won the first battle at Hoover Dam, because they sniped most of the officiers, leading to Legion forces being in dissarray and blindly charging the trapped Boulder City when Graham didn't act? Also, Centurions are promoted on the number of people they kill, not on their administrative potential (wiki says they must have killed hundreds of foes each, which does seem rather far-fetched), their competence at this task must wildly vary. Aurelius is quite obviously someone who would much rather crack some heads rather than administer a region. And even in Sparta, the elite was not chosen based on whoever killed the most people, that's a recipe for crazy, bloodlusted leaders, not able administrators.

I could see slaves-turn-wives trading fruits, meats, grains at the market with little household slaves doing the manual labour. Sounds quite nice, actually.

If you are not the ''wife'' being raped. Or the slave doing the ''menial labor''. That scenario actually sounds rather like a huge step back for everybody but the dominating male here. You make it sound like being a slave is a job like any other. And trading fruits doesn,t support a large empire.

Otherwise the Legion wouldn't work, period

Which is my exact point, it doesn't. It requires extrapolation and guesswork to make them viable, since everything we know about them implies they are an army and nothing else, while it's also trying to convince us it has a working economy spanning no less than four perfectly safe states. It's partly a problem of consistency and partly a problem of the Legion being way too damn under-represented.

Obsidian have better writers than NMA, apparently

Ignoring the pointless jab, good thing we agree on that, because part of my point is that Obsidian should be capable of doing better than what they did with the Legion. It has potential, but it is squandered in many ways.

You have a warrior ethos, artistic style, a cult (to Caesar), stories (which can easily be translated into epic tales, songs, etc.). You have the elements needed to forge a high culture right there. It's not perfect but you're understating the potential.

I will give you the warrior's ethos (which for me boils down to encouraging people to be better cannon fodder, but whatever) and Caesar's cult (which would probably die out with the Legion I guess, but cults have a way of being very pervasive), but their artistic style is nothing to write home about (everybody but them seems to find their uniforms silly, and repurposed football gear is not really glorious), and what stories? ''How Great Caesar and his army rampaged through the wastes, assimilating or killing people, before being soundly crushed by democrats or robots''? Besides beating isolated tribes, a defeated Legion would have no true feat of arms, and has not existed long enough (25 years at most, it started in 2255 and we are in 2281) to really get enough stories going to make a true legacy.

This is all you've convinced me of, as in all likelihood your staunch moralism makes it impossible to understand why, how and what the Legion is.

If opposing organized sexism, slavery, rape, and gratuitous murder in the name of an ill-defined ''greater good'' makes me a ''staunch moralist'', I guess I should take it as a compliment. Obsidian are partly to blame too, since they buried any interesting and viable aspects to the Legion under those whole sexist slave army facade. Since as far as we are concerned what is stated in the games is the only things accepted as being canon, this facade is what the Legion actually is. I will accept it is something else and revise my judgement if Obsidian tells, or better, shows us it is.

At this point it just seems our opinions differ too much. I like NCR and you like the Legion, and we have our own reasons. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Crni Vuk]

If you are not the ''wife'' being raped. Or the slave doing the ''menial labor''. That scenario actually sounds rather like a huge step back for everybody but the dominating male here. You make it sound like being a slave is a job like any other. And trading fruits doesn,t support a large empire.

This is an very interesting point.

And if you ask me. Obsidian missed here some huge potential and really droped the ball on that one.

They would have done a much better job if they have shown the "slavery" from a more "human" point of view to say it that way. Obsidian really makes a good job of showing the Legion from their worst side where the members of the Legion talk about their slaves like killing them does not even matter as there are always more.

I wish they would have taken their time to show the slavery in the Legion from a much different angle. One where they explain or show the slaves actually having a "better" life then before. Like being forced to do hard labor but actually enjoying good treatment and even medical attendance (?) some education even!. Maybe even have slaves which explain you their life before the Legion being very miserable in the wasteland. Forced to hunt for food and starving very often but now with the Legion forced to work but with no reason to care about anything else and even geting sometimes time for their families. They would trade their freedom for safety and consistency but without Legion members that treat them like "subhumans". Punishment for bad work or mistakes could still be harsh though. But it seems like the current way how the Legion treats their slaves is very random.

There is an old saying. The worst enemy to freedom is a satisfied slave.

...

I think the point some address here is that something which was created with force can only be hold together by force.

And that is almost always true for any nation or empire which is conquering a large territory with military power. Be it for the Nazis, Soviets or much older empires/forces like Alexander or Rome. Even the Muslims which happened to conquer large parts of Spain for almost 800 years have been pushed back eventually (reconquista) as the christian world of that time though those "don't belong in there" (what ever if that is true or not is a different story). Fact is though that certain aggressions and resistance is always present with military actions and a forcefull conquest.

Sometimes it can happen that empires take a long time to crumble and sometimes certain regions can claim their independence very fast.

The Legion follows mainly violence in one way or another. So it is not that far away to assume that they can conquer areas. But they might not be able to hold them for ever. Particularly when tribes or local people start to evolve their own identity.

 

[navim]

i think the legion have an old way to think....in my opinion the creation of a big community is not really nice..like in fallout 3 we have the bos that help the wasteland they are quite good to everybody and after u destroy the enclave there is not too much war...but in fallout NV the legion and the NCR in two completely diferent types of community that both have its problems..to me the followers are a good one...if everybody thought like they do would be better for everybody...but humans always want to be better than the others so..

 

[Four Suited Jack]

Well, my preference is with Mr. House.

However, if you took away the rampant sexism, the unnecessary slavery and the cannibalism then I would see them as a legitimate choice, Mr. House would still remain my preference though.

 

[Horus9k]

The Legion follows mainly violence in one way or another. So it is not that far away to assume that they can conquer areas. But they might not be able to hold them for ever. Particularly when tribes or local people start to evolve their own identity.

Well, the Legion has been holding 4 states for a quarter of a century, and can maintain a massive fucking army east of the Hoover Dam without much difficult (supplies, food, weapons etc. taken into consideration), which means that whether you want to admit it or not, they had both a massive infrastructure and functioning economy. Far from a proto-nation 'on the brink of collapse,' many merchants favor trading into Legion territory for its safety and because there are goods to be traded.

However, if you took away the rampant sexism, the unnecessary slavery and the cannibalism then I would see them as a legitimate choice, Mr. House would still remain my preference though.

Unnecessary slavery? Not when you want to crush a force that has vastly superior technology and presumably population.

 

[Four Suited Jack]

The Legion follows mainly violence in one way or another. So it is not that far away to assume that they can conquer areas. But they might not be able to hold them for ever. Particularly when tribes or local people start to evolve their own identity.

Well, the Legion has been holding 4 states for a quarter of a century, and can maintain a massive fucking army east of the Hoover Dam without much difficult (supplies, food, weapons etc. taken into consideration), which means that whether you want to admit it or not, they had both a massive infrastructure and functioning economy. Far from a proto-nation 'on the brink of collapse,' many merchants favor trading into Legion territory for its safety and because there are goods to be traded.

Raul even says that Arizona is better with the Legion than what it was before the Legion.

However, if you took away the rampant sexism, the unnecessary slavery and the cannibalism then I would see them as a legitimate choice, Mr. House would still remain my preference though.

Unnecessary slavery? Not when you want to crush a force that has vastly superior technology and presumably population.

Of course, however, even without the existence of the war with the NCR, Caeser's Legion still advocates slavery, so it's obviously not a case of the war with the NCR being an exception.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well, the Legion has been holding 4 states for a quarter of a century, and can maintain a massive fucking army east of the Hoover Dam without much difficult (supplies, food, weapons etc. taken into consideration), which means that whether you want to admit it or not, they had both a massive infrastructure and functioning economy. Far from a proto-nation 'on the brink of collapse,' many merchants favor trading into Legion territory for its safety and because there are goods to be traded.

Yes because the game does not show anything in that direction. Not in the same way like with the NCR (which has farmers, scientists, settlers, trading with the strip etc.). So we have simply to assume the Legion exists from thin air. Not even the ancient Romans managed to do that. So I guess the Legion is really extremely advanced. As said. Compared to the NCR the Legion is a very one-dimensional faction. This does not tell anything about which faction is better. It just shows that Obsidian spend much more time on the NCR then the legion offering a much more diverse picture about the NCR. Which is a true shame. I wish they would have spend time working on both factions in equal ways.

Raul even says that Arizona is better with the Legion than what it was before the Legion.

And I never said the area or core region of the Legion can not be a place with some peace. The question is what happens when they expand. Some empires lasted for a few centuries before they had to dissolve. The Legion is Caesar. No Caesar and probably no Legion. He is to his army what Alexander was to his empire. Remove that figure and you might tend with many issues. Who is saying that the tribes which Caesar united might not to start to rebel claiming to hold the "true" spirit of the Legion once he is gone ? Eventually battling each other.

I do NOT say that I am right and others here are wrong. We are all just speculating anyway. I just think that when comparing the Legion with historical examples it seems there are many similar characteristics with empires which conquered a large territory which was very alien to them. Be it the Brits with Africa. Alexander with the Persians/Indians or the Romans with the Germans. And in the end they had to leave those areas. Of course the same counts in many ways with the NCR as they are NOT from Vegas. So once they claim Vegas for them self. They might run exactly in the same issues. - One should never underestimate peoples will for independence.

What works with the Legion for Arizona though has not to work for the rest of the Vegas area once the Legion conquered it. Also. If you would ask a German how he likes Germany in 1938 or 1940 or a Roman citizen at the peak of the Roman empire/expansion about the value of Rome you can easily guess which answer you will get. For certain people a system will always have some benefits. But just because some area is "quiet" does not mean it is inherently without flaws. Or the best possible option.

The game at least shows the legion as a force which falls very often back rather to "violence" then "negotiations" and as such it will have to face different issues then the NCR for example which was even ready to take up some "negotiations" with Vegas AND the BOS which could be seen as their "arch enemies" (almost).